Dialog with Jehovas Witness

[ShanPO]

Russell was someone who was searching for the truth, he went to many different churches and when he heard something that didn’t sound right he would go to another church…

This stuck out to me. When Russell would hear something that didn’t sound right to him, his inclination was to move on. That reminds me of a Bible verse. Anyone care to guess which one?

Basically, Russell decided, upon his own, according to what you just said, what was truth and what wasn’t truth, and when all that didn’t work for him, he just made it up on his own. Here’s the great Catholic apologist question: Where did he get the authority to do that? How did he know his “truth” was better than anyone else’s “truth?” According to your statement, he heard many different “truths,” so how did he know one was OK and the other was not so OK?

 

[ChosenOne7]

Sorry if you are offended, I don’t think anyone here is trying to offend you.

If you are aware of your history would you agree that your roots trace back to the seventh day Adventists and back to the Millerites? Would you agree that early Jehovah Witnesses celebrated Christmas (1925 or so) and were encouraged to give Watchtower material as Christmas gifts? If you wanted to read old Watchtower literature, how far back can you go. Is this material available to you from say 1910-1920?

Sorry for the late reply I only saw this post now… Yeah I am aware that they used to celebrate Christmas, they used to do alot of things, they used to smoke aswel today we don’t smoke… There are many things they done that they only stopped afterwards once they saw it wasn’t in line with what the Bible teaches… It’s was the same in Bible times, just as the apostles understood many prophecies concerning the Messiah only after Jesus’ death and resurrection, Christians today understand Bible prophecy in its finest detail only after it has been fulfilled. For example when the early Christians learned that uncircumcised Gentiles could become fellow believers, that change led to a new question regarding the need for people of the nations to be circumcised. This moved the apostles and older men to reexamine the entire issue of circumcision. The same pattern holds true today. A brilliant flash of light on one Bible subject sometimes leads God’s anointed servants, to reexamine related topics. We always benefit by doing things God’s way. (Isaiah 48:17, 18) So when our view of a Bible passage is clarified, we rejoice in advancing truth. Really, our continuing to be enlightened confirms that we are on the right path. Proverbs 4:18 says It is “the path of the righteous ones,” which “is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” God is very considerate in the way he makes his purposes known to his servants. Instead of revealing the truth all at once in one blinding flash of light, he enlightens us progressively, He allows us to discern a few things at a time. God’s Son, Jesus Christ, provided spiritual enlightenment in a similar manner as we have seen from the Bible. I see most people will mention about 1975 but no one mentions how Russell predicted that a time of trouble would begin in 1914 even though they didn’t understand what would happen at the time, they studied Daniels prophecy and and said the time pointed to 1914, and something big did happen World War 1 broke out… Then they saw the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7-11 - nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, no war has taken place before then with so many nations involved, we have earthquakes on a greater scale nw even in places it was thought never to happen, food shortages the number keeps increasing… the sign of the times as Jesus said… At the moment Matthew 24:14 we believe is busy being fulfilled now as it says “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” if we are not doing the preaching work who will fulfill this scripture?

 

[ShanPO]

Sorry for the late reply I only saw this post now… Yeah I am aware that they used to celebrate Christmas, they used to do alot of things, they used to smoke aswel today we don’t smoke… There are many things they done that they only stopped afterwards once they saw it wasn’t in line with what the Bible teaches… It’s was the same in Bible times, just as the apostles understood many prophecies concerning the Messiah only after Jesus’ death and resurrection, Christians today understand Bible prophecy in its finest detail only after it has been fulfilled. For example when the early Christians learned that uncircumcised Gentiles could become fellow believers, that change led to a new question regarding the need for people of the nations to be circumcised. This moved the apostles and older men to reexamine the entire issue of circumcision. The same pattern holds true today. A brilliant flash of light on one Bible subject sometimes leads God’s anointed servants, to reexamine related topics. We always benefit by doing things God’s way. (Isaiah 48:17, 18) So when our view of a Bible passage is clarified, we rejoice in advancing truth. Really, our continuing to be enlightened confirms that we are on the right path. Proverbs 4:18 says It is “the path of the righteous ones,” which “is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” God is very considerate in the way he makes his purposes known to his servants. Instead of revealing the truth all at once in one blinding flash of light, he enlightens us progressively, He allows us to discern a few things at a time. God’s Son, Jesus Christ, provided spiritual enlightenment in a similar manner as we have seen from the Bible. I see most people will mention about 1975 but no one mentions how Russell predicted that a time of trouble would begin in 1914 even though they didn’t understand what would happen at the time, they studied Daniels prophecy and and said the time pointed to 1914, and something big did happen World War 1 broke out… Then they saw the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7-11 - nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, no war has taken place before then with so many nations involved, we have earthquakes on a greater scale nw even in places it was thought never to happen, food shortages the number keeps increasing… the sign of the times as Jesus said… At the moment Matthew 24:14 we believe is busy being fulfilled now as it says “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” if we are not doing the preaching work who will fulfill this scripture?

Seems like a little bit of revisionist history here. Didn’t Russell predict the end of the world in 1914, not just “a time of trouble?”

 

[ChosenOne7]

This stuck out to me. When Russell would hear something that didn’t sound right to him, his inclination was to move on. That reminds me of a Bible verse. Anyone care to guess which one?

Basically, Russell decided, upon his own, according to what you just said, what was truth and what wasn’t truth, and when all that didn’t work for him, he just made it up on his own. Here’s the great Catholic apologist question: Where did he get the authority to do that? How did he know his “truth” was better than anyone else’s “truth?” According to your statement, he heard many different “truths,” so how did he know one was OK and the other was not so OK?

It interesting that you ask that question… That’s why if you read further you would see I said when he heard something which didn’t sound right he would study the Bible see of scripture linked up with scripture Russells belief was there would always be more than one verse to support a belief… Even today we are encouraged to study the Bible, we are encourage not to just believe everything you hear from church even we are encouraged to keep testing whether we are in the faith… Like on a personal note I didn’t believe everything I was taught as a Jehovah’s Witness, I had to make personal study an research not only from my own resources but from other resources too, that’s the reason I’m here so I can learn more about Catholicism I’m always open to learning,my philosophy is if you can prove to me what you believe is in the Bible I’ll believe.

1. No one needs authority to study the Bible, 1 John 4:1 says “Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” that’s what he done he kept testing to see what was said was in the Bible
2. He never said his truths was better than any one else’s… He simply took the Bible and listened to what was taught and checked if it was in the Bible. That’s why today our beliefs are based on the Bible if it’s not in the Bible it becomes questionable

It’s like any person today who is curious to know more about the bible they would certainly have many questions that they have thought about… The only way one would answer there questions is to show them proof… Russell studied the Bible along with a few men who also knew the Bible better than him not all of them ended up being Bible Students some formed there own denomination hence you find some of our beliefs might be the same as others, it’s only the beliefs which was not found in the Bible that Russell couldn’t accept

 

[ajcstr]

After the death of the apostles Christianity has adopted many teachings rooted in paganism. Jesus said this would happen in his illustration of the wheat and the weeds, the apostle Paul also warned Christians that after he dies many false prophets will arise and form sects… Hence why we have so many different sects today it’s been prophesied. Russell was someone who was searching for the truth, he went to many different churches and when he heard something that didn’t sound right he would go to another church… There are many beliefs he found that was contrary to what the Bible says, some of his teachings could of come from the 7 day adventist but they too have beliefs which are contrary to the Bible, but Russell wouldn’t reject every teaching of every church it’s just the ones that didn’t appear in the Bible… What he done was kept comparing beliefs to what the Bible says he basically studied the scriptures. Even though many of the 7 day adventist beliefs are similar to the Jehovah’s Witnesses there are also many which aren’t similar like they don’t use God’s name, the belief of the trinity, and like many other religions they are not fulfilling the command of Jesus to preach the good news. Russell never claimed credit for uncovering spiritual truths but gave much credit to others who had come before him and above all he gave credit to God who was responsible for teaching his people what they need to know when they need to know it. As the years passed Russell an his associates stood ever more apart and distinct from Christiandom. Today everyone knows we are completely separate and different from the mainstream beliefs, we rather stick to following God’s word than to follow the traditions more commonly known to man or traditions followed and practiced by man. Like the Catholic Church also believes to be the truth but they share many similar beliefs with Protestants, no matter how many denominations there are most of them have the same beliefs just here an there is a few changes. But I find it weird how Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs are completely different to all the other millions of denominations. That is something I always find interesting, how we are the only ones doing the preaching work. Sometimes it feels like the whole world is against us the little number of ppl we are but then I think of what Jesus said: “If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.”—John 15:19. How true is that verse

I would suggest 2 things to you (my opinion of course and I am trying to use words that don’t offend your beliefs)

First, I personally don’t think its reasonable to believe that the Christ was born and died (we would say for the forgiveness of our sins - not sure what the JW approach to the atonement is) only to have total immediate apostasy. This would mean that the apostles did not effectively pass on the faith and that the Bible cannot be trusted at all because it came from an apostate church. This apostasy lasted for 1800 years.

Second, The beliefs of the Watchtower were developed solely from an individual’s interpretation of the Bible with no reliance on theology or tradition. This is the ultimate outcome of Sola Scriptura (bible alone). Many nondenominational churches are established in the same manner, yet with different beliefs so what makes any of their interpretation right or wrong?

Now, as a Catholic, I can read letters written by people from every century that reflect the same beliefs that I have. Many of these writers knew and were taught by the apostles. Many wrote their material before there was a New Testament. There is a succession from Jesus to now. The literature is widely available if you care to read it for yourself. You mention you would need to go all the way back to 1800 to talk about your history. I need to go back to about 33 AD.

One other point. If you have ever compared a NWT to any translation there are major differences. There was no NWT prior to 1950. So, taking that to its logical conclusion, the Bible contained a false gospel until 1950 - my Bible talks about angels worshiping Jesus in Hebrews and tells me that the Word was God in the Gospel of John.

These are the arguments of logic I have that would prevent me from becoming a JW. As far as proselytizing, I have to concede that the devotion the JW show is truly impressive. No one can ever argue that, but for example, the Mormons are just as genuine and just as zealous in their evangelization, but they preach yet another gospel.

I don’t know the answer to this question but are there any JW hospitals, schools, foreign aid groups, or any “christian” activities other than preaching that exist because the Bible also states that you will know them by their fruits.

 

[ShanPO]

It interesting that you ask that question… That’s why if you read further you would see I said when he heard something which didn’t sound right he would study the Bible see of scripture linked up with scripture Russells belief was there would always be more than one verse to support a belief… Even today we are encouraged to study the Bible, we are encourage not to just believe everything you hear from church even we are encouraged to keep testing whether we are in the faith… Like on a personal note I didn’t believe everything I was taught as a Jehovah’s Witness, I had to make personal study an research not only from my own resources but from other resources too, that’s the reason I’m here so I can learn more about Catholicism I’m always open to learning,my philosophy is if you can prove to me what you believe is in the Bible I’ll believe.

1. No one needs authority to study the Bible, 1 John 4:1 says “Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” that’s what he done he kept testing to see what was said was in the Bible
2. He never said his truths was better than any one else’s… He simply took the Bible and listened to what was taught and checked if it was in the Bible. That’s why today our beliefs are based on the Bible if it’s not in the Bible it becomes questionable

It’s like any person today who is curious to know more about the bible they would certainly have many questions that they have thought about… The only way one would answer there questions is to show them proof… Russell studied the Bible along with a few men who also knew the Bible better than him not all of them ended up being Bible Students some formed there own denomination hence you find some of our beliefs might be the same as others, it’s only the beliefs which was not found in the Bible that Russell couldn’t accept

So he would take his Bible, read it, and come to his own conclusion that what he was saying was truth?

You’re exactly right, no one needs authority to study the Bible, but one needs authority to teach the Bible, and if someone is literally making it up as he goes along, that person’s authority should be questioned. So again, I ask the question, where did Russell get his authority?

So if Russell never said his truth was better than anyone else’s, then why go around telling people about it? Why spread it? The truth of the truth is he DID think it was better, so it had to be spread.

You last paragraph leads me to another point, and if this isn’t the right place for this, please, Mod, let me know. Truth is a binding concept. If something is truth now, it will be truth later. 2+2 will always equal 4. That is truth. I’ll grant you that Russell had the “truth,” how is it that his truth can be changed by your organization?

 

[ajcstr]

No one needs authority to study the Bible, 1 John 4:1 says “Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” that’s what he done he kept testing to see what was said was in the Bible

Also see Acts 30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” Jesus SENT his apostles, he didn’t give them copies of the Bible and say “Here, make sure everybody reads this”

We can go back and forth verse for verse - but it really is a question of authority. Which authority are you going to trust. We could fill the forum with one verse “This is my body” and we would never get anywhere.

 

[ajcstr]

So if Russell never said his truth was better than anyone else’s, then why go around telling people about it? Why spread it? The truth of the truth is he DID think it was better, so it had to be spread.

To add to this point many think Russell would probably have been disfellowed out of the current JW which follows more closely what Russell’s successor Rutherford taught.

 

[Ceil-1]

Wow, Chosen One, didn’t Mr. Russel ever hear of discernment of spirits?

What was his prayer life like? The Scriptures also say that if a prophet makes a prophecy and it doesn’t come true, then he is not speaking for God. That seems to have ruled him out rather early on.

I cannot imagine a person who is praying in the spirit for discernment would be led astray. So, how do you pray? And, how are your sure his form of prayer had the Truth and was not just a clever self-deception? I need you to be very specific, here.

 

[Dorothy]

The Catholic Church is like a three-legged stool.

She has 1. Sacred Scripture, 2. The God-given authority of the Church (Magisterium), and 3. Tradition with a capital “T”.

Even if a pope was very bad (and we have had bad popes), the Catholic Church, that our Lord Jesus Christ instituted, will not err in teachings regarding faith and morals.

Thanks be to God!!!

 

[adf417]

I’m here so I can learn more about Catholicism I’m always open to learning,my philosophy is if you can prove to me what you believe is in the Bible I’ll believe.

Greetings ChosenOne7
Would you care to show us this philosophy in use in early Christianity, say between the years 120 to 400? Can you show us where this philosophy is found in the bible itself and how this philosophy lines up with 1 Tim 3:15?

This philosophy has always seen pretty solid to me also until I learned the church had no bible as you know it so I still ponder how a philosophy like this just all of a sudden comes into existence.

Peace!!!

 

[ChosenOne7]

This is a reply to your opinion related to that post…

I would suggest 2 things to you (my opinion of course and I am trying to use words that don’t offend your beliefs)

Firstly you absolutely correct when you say that apostacy didn’t start immediately after Jesus’ death… Apostasy started developing in Pauls day amongst the 1st Christians an the congregation of Christ… It’s when all the apostles died that apostasy took its full force, an the number of true Christians got less an apostasy grew more. What you must understand too is that even when Jesus and the pharisees were preaching from the same writings and quoting many verses of prophets before them it was evident that Jesus teaching was the truth, likewise today just because we all using 1 Bible it doesn’t mean everyone is teaching the truth, like pharisees back then were doing it for selfish reasons today too people can do it for selfish reasons for prominence, for money I mean look at how much pastors, priests, etc gets paid we don’t have ranks in our congregation we don’t get paid for leading the congregation we don’t even ask for tithes or contributions, I’m not sure how it works in your faith if your leaders get paid or not… But that’s besides the point… You mentioned of our devotion we show for the preaching work I thank you for that, with that being said we have preached to many people using there own Bible’s reading the same verses which is in our Bible, seems like everyone uses that excuse that we have our own Bible just because one or 2 verses have different wording. I don’t hear anyone question why God’s name has been removed from the majority of the bibles, or do you?
We don’t take part in wars or any form of violence many of our brothers lost there lives in some countries an some thrown in prisons for not compromising there faith to help fight for the country, we have big support groups that are normally 1st on disaster scenes you should read up on it… You will jus never hear a Jehovahs witness speak about such things, remember when Jesus was on earth his main focus was the preaching work, we follow Jesus example our main focus is also the preaching work like Jesus message saved lives our message too can save lives, our literature is normally for the benefit of the community for example it helps people to overcome drugs, alcoholism, smoking, maybe how to cope with depression, divorce, an common problems known to man, we help people to rely on God an to pray to him when faced with difficult situations. would u not say that message could do good for the community? We believe the Bible is what changes lives… Not us… We are just there to help… An yes Mormons preach too but just like Catholics that added the apocryphal to the Bible, Mormons too have another book besides the Bible they preach from. Those extra books sometimes contradicts scriptures in the Bible… The Bible doesn’t contradict itself, you will find that scriptures an teachings are quite consistent… I’m not sure if you agree to that or not… But as Jehovah’s Witnesses we believe the Bible is God’s word nothing else

 

[ChosenOne7]

So he would take his Bible, read it, and come to his own conclusion that what he was saying was truth?

You’re exactly right, no one needs authority to study the Bible, but one needs authority to teach the Bible, and if someone is literally making it up as he goes along, that person’s authority should be questioned. So again, I ask the question, where did Russell get his authority?

So if Russell never said his truth was better than anyone else’s, then why go around telling people about it? Why spread it? The truth of the truth is he DID think it was better, so it had to be spread.

Not all by himself… While still in his late teens, Russell started a weekly Bible study group with other young men. They began to analyze the Bible’s teachings on other subjects, such as immortality of the soul as well as Christ’s ransom sacrifice and his second coming. In 1877, at the age of 25, Russell sold his share in his father’s prospering business and began a full-time preaching career. In 1878 Russell had a major disagreement with one of his collaborators, who had rejected the teaching that Christ’s death could be an atonement for sinners. Always a staunch advocate of the ransom doctrine, Russell severed all ties with this former collaborator. What’s important to know is that the people who joined Russell in deep Bible study became known simply as the Bible Students. As a result of their Bible study, Russell and his associates came to reject Christendom’s teachings of a mysterious “Most Holy Trinity,” an inherently immortal human soul, and eternal torment in hellfire. They also rejected the need for a separate seminary-trained clergy class. They wanted to return to the humble origins of Christianity, with spiritually qualified elders to lead the congregations without thought of a salary or remuneration. Russell referred quite openly to the assistance in Bible study he had received from others, Russell said of these men: “The study of the Word of God with these dear brethren led, step by step, into greener pastures.”
So Russell studied the Bible, deep study… He didn’t just wake up an literally make up his own things then men whom he was studying the Bible with were pastors of different faiths who had a desire to learn more, I’m sure you would agree with earnest prayer for God to help you understand scriptures better that God can help one… If I may ask you, your church leaders where did they get there authority? And how do you know that it’s from God? Did you earnestly study the Bible to see if what they teaching are consistent or supports the Bible or do you just believe what they teach? With that being said you will probably tell me you are the true church fair enough but now why aren’t you preaching or proselytizing to share the truth, to save lives before the end comes why don’t you go about preaching like Jesus did? God wants every person to be saved an desires no one to be destroyed, after a natural disaster do people just sit and wait for survivors to come to them or do they earnestly go out to seek for them, that’s why Russell went preaching and that’s why today we go preaching.

 

[ChosenOne7]

You last paragraph leads me to another point, and if this isn’t the right place for this, please, Mod, let me know. Truth is a binding concept. If something is truth now, it will be truth later. 2+2 will always equal 4. That is truth. I’ll grant you that Russell had the “truth,” how is it that his truth can be changed by your organization?

The truth gradually becomes clearer to us as we persist in studying the Scriptures patiently and diligently. The meaning or significance of Bible prophecies also unfolds progressively. Daniel’s prophecy clearly said that true knowledge would “increase” during the time of the end (Dan. 12:4). Only at “the conclusion of the system of things” would “the righteous ones would then shine as brightly as the sun” (Mt.13:24- 30, 36-43; 24:45-47; Acts 3:20- 21).

it is deceptive and hypocritical to criticize Witnesses for changed beliefs especially since EVERY religion has changed it’s beliefs and practices over the same time period!

It wasn’t too long ago that Protestants and Catholics taught that black people were cursed, that slavery was “Christian,” and that racial intermarriage was condemned by the Bible. And up until the early 19th century virtually all religions taught that they were the only true religion (sign of a cult, right?). Look at how churches have changed their doctrine regarding women in the pulpit, and how many of them have actually changed the words of their Bible versions to be “gender neutral” in order to support these changes. Jehovah’s Witnesses have always been willing to change any belief in order to harmonize better with increased knowledge of Scriptural teaching.

So rather than rejecting Jehovah’s Witnesses understandings of Scripture simply because they progress in their understanding of it, this should be recognized as a comendable effort! It is stupid to avoid accepting current knowledge which is solidly based on known facts just because we know there most likely will be changes or adjustments with increased knowledge. Every belief that is based on knowledge changes or is subject to change. the Apostles had Jesus right there teaching them and yet found it difficult to see accurately, especially about “end time” prophecies! So would it be any surprise that true Christians would make mistakes in understanding prophecy? If this negated their claim to true Christianity then we must also question the apostles themselves
So, just as the Apostles and Christians of the first century had misunderstandings that had to be corrected as their knowledge increased, so it would be the case with true Christians down through the centuries.

 

[ChosenOne7]

Also see Acts 30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” Jesus SENT his apostles, he didn’t give them copies of the Bible and say “Here, make sure everybody reads this”

We can go back and forth verse for verse - but it really is a question of authority. Which authority are you going to trust. We could fill the forum with one verse “This is my body” and we would never get anywhere.

Tell me what was the eunuch reading? Isaiah right… Isaiah 53:7,8 to be specific… You must remember back then they quoted from scripture, by this time they had scrolls of the scriptures not a literal Bible… Jesus was familiar with scripture he often said when defending himself it is written meaning that he quoted from the old testament which was written down already when Jesus was tested by Satan. It’s also interesting if you read Acts how it’s says the apostles was spreading the good news, an you absolutely correct Jesus SENT them to go out an preach… So now ask yourself this… If Jesus is head of the congregation today, and he directs the cong by means of holy spirit, then who is he sending to preach the good news today? Who do you know that’s preaching this good news?

 

[ChosenOne7]

Greetings ChosenOne7
Would you care to show us this philosophy in use in early Christianity, say between the years 120 to 400? Can you show us where this philosophy is found in the bible itself and how this philosophy lines up with 1 Tim 3:15?

This philosophy has always seen pretty solid to me also until I learned the church had no bible as you know it so I still ponder how a philosophy like this just all of a sudden comes into existence.

1 Timothy 3:15. To answer that first question we believe what the scripture says, “the congregation of the living God,” saying that this is “a pillar and support of the truth.” The entire congregation of anointed Christians certainly proved to be such a pillar in the first century. That is where they could hear truth taught and supported, where they could be built up. Similarly, the worldwide Christian congregation is God’s household, “a pillar and support of the truth.” Our regular attendance at and participation in the meetings of our local congregation is a key way for us to be built up, strengthened in our relationship with God, and prepared to do his will. Writing to the congregation in Corinth, Paul focused on what was said at such meetings. He wrote that he desired that what was said at their meetings be clear and understandable so that those attending could be “built up.” (1 Corinthians 14:12, 17-19) We today can be built up if we recognize that Jehovah God has authorized the arrangement for local congregations and is supporting it.

And to answer your second question you right they had no bible, bibles wasn’t used back then they used scrolls in the 1st century. But scrolls were not easy to use or carry. Every time Christians wanted to find a scripture, they had to unroll a scroll and later roll it up again. Scrolls usually had writing only on one side. The Gospel of Matthew filled one whole scroll. Then people started using the codex, which was the first kind of book. A reader could open a book and easily turn the pages to find a scripture. Historians say that Christians quickly started using books and that after the year 100, most of them were using books.

 

[ChosenOne7]

In the last 125 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses have published literally millions of words in publications such as The Watchtower. This includes powerful arguments against atheism and the theory of evolution, eloquent defences of the Bible as the inspired word of God, articles upholding the Bible’s stance on moral issues such as abortion, fornication, adultery and homosexual lifestyles. Watchtower publications have long exhorted their readers to display Christian qualities and imitate Jesus. They have shown how applying the Bible’s counsel can benefit family life. Through The Watchtower, millions of people have been comforted by the Bible’s message of hope.
You might expect that evangelical Christian organizations would happily applaud most of the above. After all, evangelical Christians believe in God and reject evolution, consider the Bible to be God’s inspired word, oppose sexual sins and abortion. They, too, speak of the need to imitate Jesus and display Christlike qualities. You would expect, then, that evangelical Christian groups could find a lot of positive things to say about The Watchtower. You’d think they’d congratulate Jehovah’s Witnesses for energetically spreading the above-mentioned views throughout the world and in literally hundreds of languages. But you would be wildly wrong.

An analysis of quotations from The Watchtower and other Jehovah’s Witness publications made by evangelical Christian writers - particularly on the Internet, but also in print - reveals that, far from commending Witness literature for all the positive material they publish, these writers consistently attack Jehovah’s Witnesses and actively seek anything that could possibly be used to discredit them - including many things published more than 100 years ago!
Critics of Witness publications immediately reveal their bias. The Watchtower Society is their ideological opponent, to be defeated at all costs. They comb through old Watchtowers, going back as far as 130 years. They take whatever suits their purpose and ignore the rest. They rip quotes out of their context, attempting to make it look as though they say much more than they actually meant. Why do they do it? They do it because it is their job to do it! In short, they are far from being an objective source of information.

Frankly, few Jehovah’s Witnesses are likely to be taken in by such chicanery. It is easy to detect an agenda behind this type of mudslinging. Just about anyone who wanted to believe it has already done so. And as for the rest of us, what hasn’t killed us has made us stronger.

 

[ShanPO]

Not all by himself… While still in his late teens, Russell started a weekly Bible study group with other young men. They began to analyze the Bible’s teachings on other subjects, such as immortality of the soul as well as Christ’s ransom sacrifice and his second coming. In 1877, at the age of 25, Russell sold his share in his father’s prospering business and began a full-time preaching career. In 1878 Russell had a major disagreement with one of his collaborators, who had rejected the teaching that Christ’s death could be an atonement for sinners. Always a staunch advocate of the ransom doctrine, Russell severed all ties with this former collaborator. What’s important to know is that the people who joined Russell in deep Bible study became known simply as the Bible Students. As a result of their Bible study, Russell and his associates came to reject Christendom’s teachings of a mysterious “Most Holy Trinity,” an inherently immortal human soul, and eternal torment in hellfire. They also rejected the need for a separate seminary-trained clergy class. They wanted to return to the humble origins of Christianity, with spiritually qualified elders to lead the congregations without thought of a salary or remuneration. Russell referred quite openly to the assistance in Bible study he had received from others, Russell said of these men: “The study of the Word of God with these dear brethren led, step by step, into greener pastures.”
So Russell studied the Bible, deep study… He didn’t just wake up an literally make up his own things then men whom he was studying the Bible with were pastors of different faiths who had a desire to learn more, I’m sure you would agree with earnest prayer for God to help you understand scriptures better that God can help one… If I may ask you, your church leaders where did they get there authority? And how do you know that it’s from God? Did you earnestly study the Bible to see if what they teaching are consistent or supports the Bible or do you just believe what they teach? With that being said you will probably tell me you are the true church fair enough but now why aren’t you preaching or proselytizing to share the truth, to save lives before the end comes why don’t you go about preaching like Jesus did? God wants every person to be saved an desires no one to be destroyed, after a natural disaster do people just sit and wait for survivors to come to them or do they earnestly go out to seek for them, that’s why Russell went preaching and that’s why today we go preaching.

Everything you said about Russell makes him sound like a great dude. And I kinda sorta think he might have been. He was no Joesph Smith, anyway ;-). But the fact remains the same, all his study led him to 1 thing, an opinion. An opinion that was exceptionally contrary to the norm, and unheard of (basically) prior to. An opinion that is not based in fact, really, because he was only studying the Bible with people who seemingly thought like him, and it seems that when there was a rift, it led to separation, which is where the road of reading the Bible with no guidance ultimately leads.

So for roughly 1700 years (using your history, we’ll say the “apostasy” started in around 100 AD), no one had the Truth, and because Russell cracked a Bible and read it, he discovered it? And Russell’s “truth” is so unlike all the other “truths” out there, so it has to come down to the question I first asked. What was Russell’s authority? If he was just a dude who read the Bible and started his own religion (which is pretty much what he was) then he didn’t really have any did he?

BUT, I can trace the authority of the Catholic Church from Francis to Peter, when he was given the keys to the Kingdom from Jesus in Matthew 16. From there, through the laying on of hands, authority has been transferred to those in charge today. When I wish to understand something scripture says, I don’t look to myself and form my own opinion, I look to see what those before me said, something Russell didn’t do.

My Church does preach. Do we go door to door like you? No, but I never really knew or cared about the JW’s until my father in law became one, but I can promise you EVERYONE knows the Catholic Church, and if they wanted, can find one. My Church preaches through outreach. Catholic Charities is one of the biggest donor organizations on the planet. Not to mention the thousands of hospitals world wide where men and women of faith care for the sick, or the schools that continue to teach the faith. What about this website? Preaching. I’m sure countless people have graced a page here at CA and have taken something from it’s pages. Are we knocking on doors? No, but please, tell me, other than that, what are the JW’s doing? And just for your information, I was a part of a group in the late 90’s called Youth for the Third Milenium where we did go knock on doors, but instead of proselytizing, we asked if we could offer only prayer with those who answered. As St. Francis said, “preach the Gospel all the time, use words only when necessary.”

 

[ShanPO]

The truth gradually becomes clearer to us as we persist in studying the Scriptures patiently and diligently. The meaning or significance of Bible prophecies also unfolds progressively. Daniel’s prophecy clearly said that true knowledge would “increase” during the time of the end (Dan. 12:4). Only at “the conclusion of the system of things” would “the righteous ones would then shine as brightly as the sun” (Mt.13:24- 30, 36-43; 24:45-47; Acts 3:20- 21).

it is deceptive and hypocritical to criticize Witnesses for changed beliefs especially since EVERY religion has changed it’s beliefs and practices over the same time period!

It wasn’t too long ago that Protestants and Catholics taught that black people were cursed, that slavery was “Christian,” and that racial intermarriage was condemned by the Bible. And up until the early 19th century virtually all religions taught that they were the only true religion (sign of a cult, right?). Look at how churches have changed their doctrine regarding women in the pulpit, and how many of them have actually changed the words of their Bible versions to be “gender neutral” in order to support these changes. Jehovah’s Witnesses have always been willing to change any belief in order to harmonize better with increased knowledge of Scriptural teaching.

So rather than rejecting Jehovah’s Witnesses understandings of Scripture simply because they progress in their understanding of it, this should be recognized as a comendable effort! It is stupid to avoid accepting current knowledge which is solidly based on known facts just because we know there most likely will be changes or adjustments with increased knowledge. Every belief that is based on knowledge changes or is subject to change. the Apostles had Jesus right there teaching them and yet found it difficult to see accurately, especially about “end time” prophecies! So would it be any surprise that true Christians would make mistakes in understanding prophecy? If this negated their claim to true Christianity then we must also question the apostles themselves
So, just as the Apostles and Christians of the first century had misunderstandings that had to be corrected as their knowledge increased, so it would be the case with true Christians down through the centuries.

First off, The Catholic Church has NEVER EVER taught that black people were “cursed.” This might be the most ignorant thing I’ve read on these forums, and believe me, I’ve read a LOT of ignorant things. If you’re going to say something as absurd as that, you had better well be able to back it up, and I don’t see no citations in your post for that.

You have a very fluid definition of truth. Truth can change as long as more knowledge comes along, is pretty much what you said. Uhhh, no. Truth is Truth is Truth is Truth. Truth is an absolute concept, meaning that if something is true, it can’t change. If I say “Jack has an apple” and I really believe it, but in actuality Jack has an orange, no matter how much I say Jack has an apple and really believe it, it’s not true. Do you see what I’m saying here? You can proclaim one thing to be Truth while holding the caveat that it can change later, depending upon the whims of those in charge.

The Catholic Church has not changed it’s core beliefs in the 2,000 years it’s been around. Sure there were opinions that might have changed (geocentricism for example) but it wasn’t a part of the deposit of faith to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe.

My challenge to you is to find me 1 thing we as Catholics believe now that we didn’t believe as an absolute rule of faith 500 years ago, or even 200 years ago when Russell was starting the Witnesses.

I can understand someone making a mistake if they say “I think this is what’s going to happen, but I could be wrong.” That’s not what happened with the JW’s. They were absolute and adamant that the world was going to end in 1914, and if you didn’t believe you would be destroyed. And then it didn’t, but it was sure going to happen in 1917. And it didn’t. And it’s awfully convenient for you to come here and say “Well, we made those statements, but now we have ‘new light’ and we were just silly back then and didn’t really know any better.”

To me, that’s like playing ball with the kid who has to have everything go his way, and if it doesn’t, he’ll just take his ball and go home. Basically, what your organization has done is say “We reserve the right to change doctrine for any reason, any time” and you just go along with it. The Catholic Church can’t do that. Why? Because we have the deposit of Faith through both Scripture and Tradition that goes all the way back to before there was even Scripture, and that was given to us by God the Father, through His Son Jesus, in unity with The Holy Spirit.

 

[ChosenOne7]

Everything you said about Russell makes him sound like a great dude. And I kinda sorta think he might have been. He was no Joesph Smith, anyway ;-). But the fact remains the same, all his study led him to 1 thing, an opinion. An opinion that was exceptionally contrary to the norm, and unheard of (basically) prior to. An opinion that is not based in fact, really, because he was only studying the Bible with people who seemingly thought like him, and it seems that when there was a rift, it led to separation, which is where the road of reading the Bible with no guidance ultimately leads.

So for roughly 1700 years (using your history, we’ll say the “apostasy” started in around 100 AD), no one had the Truth, and because Russell cracked a Bible and read it, he discovered it? And Russell’s “truth” is so unlike all the other “truths” out there, so it has to come down to the question I first asked. What was Russell’s authority? If he was just a dude who read the Bible and started his own religion (which is pretty much what he was) then he didn’t really have any did he?

BUT, I can trace the authority of the Catholic Church from Francis to Peter, when he was given the keys to the Kingdom from Jesus in Matthew 16. From there, through the laying on of hands, authority has been transferred to those in charge today. When I wish to understand something scripture says, I don’t look to myself and form my own opinion, I look to see what those before me said, something Russell didn’t do.

My Church does preach. Do we go door to door like you? No, but I never really knew or cared about the JW’s until my father in law became one, but I can promise you EVERYONE knows the Catholic Church, and if they wanted, can find one. My Church preaches through outreach. Catholic Charities is one of the biggest donor organizations on the planet. Not to mention the thousands of hospitals world wide where men and women of faith care for the sick, or the schools that continue to teach the faith. What about this website? Preaching. I’m sure countless people have graced a page here at CA and have taken something from it’s pages. Are we knocking on doors? No, but please, tell me, other than that, what are the JW’s doing? And just for your information, I was a part of a group in the late 90’s called Youth for the Third Milenium where we did go knock on doors, but instead of proselytizing, we asked if we could offer only prayer with those who answered. As St. Francis said, “preach the Gospel all the time, use words only when necessary.”

No you wrong… Maybe you should do some research on Russell history and see who he studied the Bible with… The fact remains you will start to learn the Bible when you study it… That’s why I asked you have you studied the Bible? An that’s the difference… We follow Jesus example in the way he preached… You cant say the same… Theres nothing that Jesus done that we aren’t doing… His focus was on his ministry our focus is on our ministry you can’t deny that… Jesus preached about the good news of the Kingdom, today we are preaching about the good news of the kingdom… I asked this question Matthew 24:14 says this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth at then the end will come… So if no one preach about God’s Kingdom then how will this scripture be fulfilled? You seem to put little importance on the preaching work when you know how important it is…read the Bible God has always needed people to preach his message… Before Jesus time, during Jesus time and after Jesus time