Did Adam and Eve have complete dominion of reason over appetite?

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simpleas said:
When some says A&E had been created by God, had infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality, yet willed to be like God, which is a form of lust I’d say…lusting after Godly power as an example, and didn’t regard anyone else but themselves, then I’d have trouble assuming the infused knowledge was accurate.
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Yes, there would be some inaccuracy to the infused knowledge, which means that God did not give them enough information to make the best decision. Can you see that when the story is scrutinized in this way, it takes away from the message of obedience? Authority stays with the assertion that God gave them complete, accurate information and complete dominion over appetite in order to keep the reader on the side of condemning Adam and Eve for doing something completely stupid:

“What?!! God told you that you were going to die, but you did it anyway? God is completely justified in whatever he did to Adam and Eve and all the following generations.”

It is a conclusion heavily influenced by “negativity bias”.
simpleas said:
Good question, because we are speaking of two individuals that are not afflicted with a will that is selfish, yet some would suggest they were prideful and selfish in their choice because it harmed all humans that came from them.
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Would you say that a person of mature faith could look at the story of Adam and Eve, see its good intent of the story (encouraging obedience), yet be able to see that the Gospel presents a completely different image of God and humanity? See post 107 above.
 
Vico said:
Due to the supernatural gift of grace, there was no need to fall into mortal sin.
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If the OP will not see the sin in Adam’s disobedience then the OP, if logical, will certainly not see sin in Cain’s murder of Abel either. In charity, we call such ignorance invincible and move on.
 
o_mlly said:
If the OP will not see the sin in Adam’s disobedience then the OP, if logical, will certainly not see sin in Cain’s murder of Abel either. In charity, we call such ignorance invincible and move on.
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1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

Adam and Eve’s act was certainly an offense against reason, truth and right conscience. It was a failure in love for their children and all subsequent generations. Their act was caused by an attachment to desire for power, status, wisdom, and autonomy. It was an act contrary to eternal law, which is a law that calls for humility and truth.

O_milly, are you again trying to say what is going on in my mind without asking questions?

Cain, like Adam and Eve, was caught up in his human emotion. In his case, he was blinded by jealousy and desire for justice, which is very common in people even today. Even those who hung Jesus were blinded by desire for justice. Does God forgive them, or does He condemn them? Are you going to answer my post quoting Pope Francis?

Do you believe in a God who always forgives? If not, is a person who believes that God always forgives “invincibly ignorant”?
 
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OneSheep said:
Adam and Eve’s act was certainly an offense against reason, truth and right conscience. It was a failure in love for their children and all subsequent generations. Their act was caused by an attachment to desire for power, status, wisdom, and autonomy. It was an act contrary to eternal law, which is a law that calls for humility and truth.

O_milly, are you again trying to say what is going on in my mind without asking questions?
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Sure. Would you condense what you have posted above to simply, “They sinned.”
OneSheep said:
Do you believe in a God who always forgives?
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Yes. when asked. Do you know that only that which is blameworthy (sin) requires forgiveness?
 
OneSheep said:
Yes, but the threat heavily influences the human’s reason. Reason itself becomes compromised. So, yes, a person could, with the right skill set, be able to ignore the threat and make a completely free decision, but even a skill set acquisition has to do with a knowledge base. So, a person who does not have the experience/knowledge base to transcend the threat is essentially less “free” to choose than a person of more experience, correct? Are you able to see that ability to make a free decision is highly dependent on the extent of knowledge base and experience?
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Yes. The knowledge or skill become important when we receive harm from the threat.
 
o_mlly said:
Sure. Would you condense what you have posted above to simply, “They sinned.”
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Of course. As with all sin, though, they did not know what they were doing.
o_mlly said:
Yes. when asked.
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Yet, Jesus forgave the crowd who hung him when they had not asked. So, does God forgive always, even when such asking does not take place?
o_mlly said:
Do you know that only that which is blameworthy (sin) requires forgiveness?
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“Blameworthiness” is going to be in the eye of the beholder, it is rather an subjective evaluation that strives to be unencumbered by emotion. Jesus may have found the crowd “blameworthy”, but forgave them because He saw that they did not know what they were doing. Is the reader of Genesis 3 led to blame Adam and Eve, or forgive Adam and Eve? If the reader is told that Adam and Eve are essentially omniscient, then they have “no excuse”, right? Would you agree that the reason the assertion is made that they had “complete dominion of reason” is so that reader could not conclude that their sin was understandable in light of their human limitations?
 
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STT said:
Yes. The knowledge or skill become important when we receive harm from the threat.
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What I’m gathering is that we have fairly similar views on “free will”. It’s there, but it has plenty of limitations, in varying degrees.
 
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We need to add that the serpent played a vital role in the forbidden fruit, do we not?
 
hergratefulchild said:
We need to add that the serpent played a vital role in the forbidden fruit, do we not?
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Not necessarily. Regardless how much “outside influence” there was, the decision to disobey still boils down to their own choices. Was there something in Adam and Eve’s nature that made them receptive to what the serpent had to say?
 
The serpent was the most cunning of all creatures and he started with a false truth, a lie that was presented as a truth
 
hergratefulchild said:
The serpent was the most cunning of all creatures and he started with a false truth, a lie that was presented as a truth
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Why were Adam and Eve receptive to the untruth?

Could a person with “complete dominion of reason over appetite” believe an untruth?
 
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Yes, from the devil no human can compete with his lies. It is interesting to note he takes on Eve and not Adam
 
The difficulty comes from knowing which truth to believe and ultimately it was a choice between being like God or obeying him
 
hergratefulchild said:
The difficulty comes from knowing which truth to believe and ultimately it was a choice between being like God or obeying him
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Yes, they were receptive to having something that may lead the way to their being “like God”. Why did they want to be like God?
 
OneSheep said:
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hergratefulchild:
Yes, from the devil no human can compete with his lies. It is interesting to note he takes on Eve and not Adam
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The truth outcompetes any lie. Why were Adam and Eve receptive to the untruth?
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Deceptions are attractive and appeal to the senses.
Human beings choose lesser goods. We abuse our freedom.

We have free will because God is love, and love can only exist in freedom. God allows us to employ our free will and also to suffer the consequences of it.
If he did not love us and forced us to do good, that would make us slaves or rape victims.
 
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Its a bit like Eve saying thank you God we can take it from here, we are strong enough
 
goout said:
Deceptions are attractive and appeal to the senses.
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They certainly can be, but the Encyclopedia asserts that they had “complete dominion of reason over appetite”. Can a person who has such a gift defy reason?
 
Firstly, the devil deceived Eve that she would not die and then that they would become like God and Eve saw the fruit was good to eat and desirable…its these last thoughts of Eve that caused her to take the fruit.
 
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