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OneSheep
Guest
Yes, that is the way the story goes, but we all, in a sense, want to be “like God”. Why do people want this?
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hergratefulchild
Guest
We don’t trust in God
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hergratefulchild
Guest
The Faithful do trust in God 
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hergratefulchild
Guest
Through Christ
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OneSheep
Guest
If we look at “wanting to be like God”, though, this means wanting to be powerful and all-knowing, correct? Would you say that it is in our nature to desire power and wisdom whether we trust in God or not?
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hergratefulchild
Guest
We are programmed to grow and improve, but we “should” stop short of God.
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OneSheep
Guest
Exactly, and we do need to learn our limits, of course. Would you distinguish our programming to want power and wisdom from an “appetite”? Is it something different than an appetite?
Yes, such “stopping” would be a demonstration of complete dominion of reason.
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hergratefulchild
Guest
Its in our nature, without it we would have no purpose
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OneSheep
Guest
So it (desire for power and wisdom) is indeed an appetite, and it is a God-given one. And we have all experienced what it means to have our reason dominated by our appetite, because our reasoning is weak or incomplete, correct?
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hergratefulchild
Guest
If not for the devil we would not disobey God, who is Love.
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goout
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Yes of course.goout:
They certainly can be, but the Encyclopedia asserts that they had “complete dominion of reason over appetite”. Can a person who has such a gift defy reason?
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hergratefulchild
Guest
To understand the fall we must visit creation.
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Vico
Guest
No, mankind has free will even without control. Control is not the key element but will to do good. Through that we express charity through free will. God makes it possible to express charity with our cooperation, by the gift of grace, such that no mortal sin need occur. Mankind is created imperfect but on a journey to the Beatific Vision. Catechism
Your article does not include irascible, but concupiscible (“assaults of the flesh”). One of the three preternatural gifts is absence of concupiscence.
Catholic Encyclopedia:
St. Thomas Aquinas states (Summa Theologiae):
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Vico
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You mean, connected before the choice, I think, so before there a state of habitual grace and knowledge of what is morally good. To be connected means to receive grace and cooperate with it. Once the decision of non-cooperation is made, the connection is broken until there is conversion and repentance (e.g., for the baptized: “sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future” - Catechism 1490).
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Vico
Guest
“The sensitive appetite is divided into appetitus concupiscibilis and appetitus irascibilis.” - Catholic Encyclopedia, Appetite.
Catechism
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OneSheep
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Why (for what reason in their mind) would a person with complete dominion of reason over appetite choose to defy reason? What is going on in their mind?
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OneSheep
Guest
It is quite obvious, however, that Adam and Eve’s desire effected their ability to reason, so again we go back to the question as to why God would not give the couple complete dominion of reason over all appetite if the objective was to give them ability to transcend their wants and make a wise decision.
Vico, can you see that the story loses its effectiveness on the reader if A&E did not have complete dominion of reason over appetite? The assertion that they had such “dominion” has to be made in order for the reader to remain in a position of blame, “siding with God”, so to speak. Adam and Eve themselves became the antagonists in the story.
If you are asserting that they did not have dominion over their irascible appetites, then the reader can say, “they have an excuse, they did not have dominion of reason over their irascible appetites”, and God’s punitive action may seem unreasonable. BTW, you still have not proven that the article linked in the OP, and the title of this thread, does not include irascible appetite.
All people will to do good, Vico. People choose a truly lesser good because they are lacking in ability to reason, there is an awareness deficit. Do you remember back in the dark ages of our conversation about the man who chose to fornicate? He did not have dominion of reason over appetite, his behavior was completely irrational.
Based on the story as written, the couple was completely unaware of the ramifications of their action, it is only with the assertion that they had “complete dominion of reason” that the footnote can be added that the couple was essentially omniscient, therefore their action inexcusable in the reader’s eye.
The more people know, Vico, the more wise they are, the less likely they are to sin. Wisdom can provide the skill to transcend appetite.
A decision to non-cooperate could be made in a state of grace and knowledge? How can that actually happen? A decision to non-cooperate, when it is not the decision most connected to Truth, will not occur if there is a state of grace and knowledge. Again, wisdom and experience count for something. Wisdom and experience guide the human to refrain from making hurtful choices.
Complete dominion of reason and knowledge over appetite will unquestionably result in a wise refusal to sin.
“I want that, and it looks good, but it is bad, period. Looks are deceiving, my want may effect my mind, so I will avoid temptation, etc.” results in a choice not to sin. A person who says all these things but still sins is completely unaware of what is happening in their mind.
“I want that, and I heard it is bad, but look how good it is, it cannot be so bad” is the result of desire compromising conscience. This is exactly what happened in Eve’s mind.
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hergratefulchild
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We are under estimating the Devils’ influence in the fall. He first offers Eve what he knows is forbidden, then states that God has lied and presents an alternative truth and finally offers Eve a new promise of asscending to God. For a person who has neither experienced temptation or lies this would be dificult to discern the best course of action… We must also look to these events as knowingly planned by God to offer us an even greater gift of forgiveness, thus showing his love and what love is.
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OneSheep
Guest
There is good reason to downplay the devil’s influence.
- If it was all because of the devil, then God’s punishment upon humanity in the story seems unreasonable to the reader. A spiritually mature means of taking ownership of oneself is seeing that the devil’s suggestion simply represents what is happening in our own mind, that desire itself generates suggestions that sometimes go against wisdom.
- A big purpose of the story is to motivate people to obey. If the devil’s role is overplayed, then people could just throw up their arms and say “I have no power against the devil”, which is not an empowering attitude.
- If the devil is said to have any power whatsoever, then it is a power in opposition to God, and if the person of faith knows no actual limit to “power of the devil” even if, for example, “God is more powerful”, then the unknown limit is essentially an infinity, and an infinite power is a god. When it comes right down to it, any cosmology that involves opposing powers, regardless of the asserted level of power or other rationalizations, is dualism. I will grant that many Christians have such a dualistic outlook without realizing it, and that dualism itself is our “default mode” in terms of conscience formation, but it serves our own wholeness (holiness) to move beyond dualism and take complete ownership of our limitations.
I continue to find so many aspects of conscience formation in the amazing story of Adam and Eve. The conscience itself generates an internal resentment toward parts of ourselves, and the accumulation of those aspects we resent in ourselves (i.e. appetites, capacities, etc) is seen as an opposing power.
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hergratefulchild
Guest
point taken. But to deny the existence of evil is a dangerous game. It is through Christ the faithful have conquered death.
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