Did Adam and Eve have complete dominion of reason over appetite?

[hergratefulchild]

I understand what you are saying, but the gift is the grace to resist temptation and suffer through it to remain in communion with God however much the devil or his power tries to turn us away. Our Lord Jesus Christ attones for our failings and saves us from death with the ultimate goal of returning to our original state of living without sin.

 

[OneSheep]

I can relate to this way of thinking.

Your own experience and insight is very similar to mine, I’ve seen it all along.

I’m not sure just how many people think about the fall in scripture, I’d say many people have matured since the Gospel spread through out the world, not all of course!

I think that a big part of maturity is coming to complete acceptance of from where we have come. For example, people once saw God as wrathful, and that was based on their own experience, an experience of suffering. Maturity follows relationship with God, I think, and you seem to have a good connection with a God who loves unconditionally.

What continues to inspire me about your approach is your open-minded inquisitiveness. I have a friend (also a woman) who is at great peace with the world and has this type of inquisitive approach, one that has the humility of knowing that there is so much more to learn. When I am at my best, I have the same humility.

 

[hergratefulchild]

our aim should be to live at peace, is using discipline only a stepping stone to peace. I can attest to the power of Chirst who saves from sin and brings to eternal life. I too struggled with discipline of myself and only when I let go and placed my trust in Jesus did I feel the joy of the gospel.

 

[hergratefulchild]

I understand what you are saying, but the gift is the grace to resist
temptation and suffer through it to remain in communion with God however
much the devil or his power tries to turn us away. Our Lord Jesus
Christ attones for our failings and saves us from death with the
ultimate goal of returning to our original state of living without sin.

 

[OneSheep]

our aim should be to live at peace, is using discipline only a stepping stone to peace.

This is a very good point. The natural conscience creates a divide within; and with this divide we are disciplined to behave. Once you have come to a point that your behavior is under control, generally speaking, there are other very important aspects of peace to address, the aspect of inner reconciliation. A person who sees part of him/herself as evil is not reconciled within, but may have overcome a lot of behaviors that are hurtful.

I can attest to the power of Chirst who saves from sin and brings to eternal life. I too struggled with discipline of myself and only when I let go and placed my trust in Jesus did I feel the joy of the gospel.

Discipline is a huge first step. Praise God!

 

[OneSheep]

however
much the devil or his power tries to turn us away.

So you are seeing the desire to have what others have, to be someone else, as an “evil force”, right? That jealousy itself comes from a “power of evil”?

Would you agree that with a person’s perception that jealousy itself (desire for what others have) comes from a “power of evil”, a person is naturally inclined to avoid desire for what others have and pay more attention when this desire is operating?

 

[hergratefulchild]

Temptation to sin (leave communion with God) is an evil force ultimatley sourced at the Devil.

A person is never partly evil, they are either with God or against him, but his mercy invites all back in who repent.

 

[OneSheep]

Temptation to sin (leave communion with God) is an evil force ultimatley sourced at the Devil.

Was this in response to my post 366?

No one wants to leave communion with God. It is true that we accuse others and/or ourselves of wanting to leave God, but it is simply not the case. Eve did not want to leave God, she wanted the fruit. She was not thinking “I want to leave God”. To say that she wanted to leave God is an unfounded accusation, right?

She did sin, though, based on the CCC definition.

Think of a parent seeing their child defy a rule. Can you see that it is unfair to the child for the parent to think that the child wanted to cut off relationship with the parent just because of the defiance? Is this your experience of your own parents?

 

[hergratefulchild]

can we step into creation together and I can explain better the seperation of Eve (and Adam) from God through the devil.

 

[OneSheep]

can we step into creation together and I can explain better the seperation of Eve (and Adam) from God through the devil.

Sure, but am I to conclude that your own view is that desire for what other’s have comes from an “evil source”?

And please, when you respond could you hit the “reply” button in my response box rather than the reply button at the bottom of the thread? I can’t follow which post you are responding to. Also, can I show you how to quote me so I know what you are specifically addressing?

If you reply hitting the blue button at the bottom of the thread, no one knows who you are responding to.

 

[hergratefulchild]

i see the reply, how do you quote??

can we step into creation together and I can explain better the seperation of Eve (and Adam) from God through the devil.

Sure, but am I to conclude that your own view is that desire for what other’s have comes from an “evil source”?

And please, when you respond could you hit the “reply” button in my response box rather than the reply button at the bottom of the thread? I can’t follow which post you are responding to. Also, can I show you how to quote me so I know what you are specifically addressing?

If you reply hitting the blue button at the bottom of the thread, no one knows who you are responding to.

lik this?

 

[OneSheep]

Okay, that time you must have highlighted your own quote, and that is how your own quote came up that way. If you highlight what is in my post, a little “quote” button pops up right above the highlight, and you can select it. Then the reply box appears below. If you alter my quote in the reply box, though, it will not appear correctly. If you want to respond to different pieces of my post, you can do so by highlighting different pieces.

 

[hergratefulchild]

highlighting different pieces

ok got it, thanks

 

[hergratefulchild]

Sure, but am I to conclude that your own view is that desire for what other’s have comes from an “evil source”?

Yes from the devil.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes from the devil.

And isn’t it true that in believing that your own desire for what other’s have is evil, you are motivated to pay attention to the desire, to resist it?

And do you resist the desire when you become aware of it operating?

 

[hergratefulchild]

And isn’t it true that in believing that your own desire for what other’s have is evil, you are motivated to pay attention to the desire, to resist it?

And do you resist the desire when you become aware of it operating?

I concentrate on staying in comunion with God and either suffer the desire that I know has been disoredered by the evil one or pray for relief.

 

[OneSheep]

I concentrate on staying in comunion with God and either suffer the desire that I know has been disoredered by the evil one or pray for relief.

Cool, this is a good discipline.

But when you say “the desire has been disordered”, you are not condemning the desire itself, it is the “disorder” part that is the problem, right? You see, St. Aquinas did not see the appetites themselves as bad, what was bad was the “disorder”.

CCC1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

The “certain goods” are the things desired that the other person has, as well as the appetite itself. Appetites are part of our created being, they are part of the “good” that we know to be human as described in Genesis 1.

So sin is a “failure in genuine love”. Genuine love begins with awareness, including awareness that God IS Love, and all that means. People do not will to turn away from Love unless they are self-hating, right? And if a person is in such a mode, there is nothing “genuine” about their awareness. It is not something genuine failing, it is something not genuine.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[hergratefulchild]

People do not will to turn away from Love unless they are self-hating, right? And if a person is in such a mode, there is nothing “genuine” about their awareness. It is not something genuine failing, it is something not genuine.

Do you see what I mean?

I would say self loving is more appropriate, “you” will be like God.

 

[hergratefulchild]

you are not condemning the desire itself, it is the “disorder” part that is the problem, right?

desire is not a sin, its the disorder, yes

 

[OneSheep]

I would say self loving is more appropriate, “you” will be like God.

And right there you have a perfect example of the “disorder” referred to in the definition of sin.

Let’s say a person “wants to be like God” and knows that God is Love. Can you see that turning away from love in order to be Love is totally irrational? It does not demonstrate anything near “dominion of reason over appetite”, right?