Did God commit a sin of omission by creating people with free will knowing they would bring evil to the world?

[fbl9]

How would God’s judgment be not just and fair if he took away suffering? Hello? Something bad happened, he fixed it and the bad stuff goes away. THAT is just and fair.

Instead, God holds back and we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. How is that loving?

god the vending machine oh hum.
you think God is unjust no wonder you you have issues.

Never said he was the vending machine, that was nowhere said nor intimated in my post. Can you answer my question without uncharitable personal attacks?

sorry reading too much into what you meant by fix everything
in order for us to have been re-instated to the Garden God would have overturn His previous judgement of A&E. And to overturn a previous judgement would mean that it was unjust.

 

[BobCatholic]

No we are left with the stain of original sin. But God gives us grace. There is no sin out there that cannot be overpowered by the grace of God. All we have to do is continue to ask and trust him. So by his grace he indeed took care of it.

Then why are we not allowed in the Garden of Eden? God’s grace overcame Original sin, right? So why are we still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?

sorry reading too much into what you meant by fix everything
in order for us to have been re-instated to the Garden God would have overturn His previous judgement of A&E. And to overturn a previous judgement would mean that it was unjust.

It doesn’t have to be unjust, just overturned in the name of love and mercy. There was no reason for Christ to die and rise, except love and mercy. God’s mercy and justice do not contradict each other.

Forgiveness does not mean the original judgment was unjust.

In fact, A&E repented later in life but were not allowed in the Garden for some reason.

 

[NM505StKate]

Concerning justice and mercy.

Justice = Punishment (or reward) to anyone who deserves it

Mercy (or Grace) = Exempting someone from the punishment he or she deserves.

Think of it this way. We take someone like Jeffery Dahmer, who was a horrible human being. Before he died I do believe he was a Christian and therefore may have asked for forgiveness. By way of God’s mercy he was forgiven and let into heaven. So while he was given justice here on earth it doesn’t mean he went to hell for his actions since he asked forgiveness. By the same token we can see say a non believer who never committed a crime, gave to charity, and was a good person they get judged and are sent to hell. That is in no way merciful and might be seen as petty.

 

[davidv]

Then why are we not allowed in the Garden of Eden?

Because it is not ours to have. It is like the inheritance that your great grandfather lost to gambling. It no longer exists.

God’s grace overcame Original sin, right? So why are we still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors?

Because the inheritance was lost forever.

It doesn’t have to be unjust, just overturned in the name of love and mercy. There was no reason for Christ to die and rise, except love and mercy. God’s mercy and justice do not contradict each other.

Forgiveness does not mean the original judgment was unjust.

In fact, A&E repented later in life but were not allowed in the Garden for some reason.

That is because their destiny was heaven, not the garden.

 

[BobCatholic]

Because it is not ours to have. It is like the inheritance that your great grandfather lost to gambling. It no longer exists.

It is not ours to have because God is holding us temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve’s sin.

That is because their destiny was heaven, not the garden.

The Garden was an act of mercy, where God made it just as easy to be holy as it is to be damned. The scales were more balanced, but not perfectly balanced since they were created imperfect. In effect, the devil’s thumb was on the scale.

I see it like this. It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. Just exist. It is our default setting. If one wants to go to heaven, it takes a horrendous amount of suffering and pain, and is tremendously difficult. It is like being required to learn Calculus IV honors course to get into heaven.

The scales are way out of balance. If there is a free choice, it is almost an illusion. Almost. If we had a real choice, the scales would be closer to balance.

 

[NM505StKate]

It is not ours to have because God is holding us temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve’s sin.

The Garden was an act of mercy, where God made it just as easy to be holy as it is to be damned. The scales were more balanced, but not perfectly balanced since they were created imperfect. In effect, the devil’s thumb was on the scale.

I see it like this. It is ridiculously easy to go to hell. Just exist. It is our default setting. If one wants to go to heaven, it takes a horrendous amount of suffering and pain, and is tremendously difficult. It is like being required to learn Calculus IV honors course to get into heaven.

The scales are way out of balance. If there is a free choice, it is almost an illusion. Almost. If we had a real choice, the scales would be closer to balance.

Few questions. If it is “our default” setting to go to hell then Yahweh created humans to be eternally punished? If yes then sure as heck not loving in any way. If no then why create human to by “default” go to hell?

Also your point on the scales not being perfect. Doesn’t it make sense that if a thing is perfect then it can only create perfect? If yes then why create an imperfection especially when one can create perfection. If no then Yahweh isn’t perfect???

 

[Vonsalza]

Few questions. If it is “our default” setting to go to hell then Yahweh created humans to be eternally punished? If yes then sure as heck not loving in any way. If no then why create human to by “default” go to hell?

Also your point on the scales not being perfect. Doesn’t it make sense that if a thing is perfect then it can only create perfect? If yes then why create an imperfection especially when one can create perfection. If no then Yahweh isn’t perfect???

I think our “default setting” is “to choose”. For those that never get a real, material choice, they are left to the extraordinary grace of God. The consequences of this are known by no man or woman.

I don’t think it follows that a perfect being cannot make things capable of imperfection purely by assumption that it can only perpetuate perfection in all causes and subsequent effect it moves into motion. I see no real reason to think this. After all, perfection only exists insofar as we have imperfection to juxtapose it with.

We will be judged by this perfect being. In order for It to do that, the perfect being must at least comprehend our imperfections in order to judge them.

But I can be wrong. Just ask my wife. She keeps a list.

 

[NM505StKate]

I think our “default setting” is “to choose”. For those that never get a real, material choice, they are left to the extraordinary grace of God. The consequences of this are known by no man or woman.

I don’t think it follows that a perfect being cannot make things capable of imperfection purely by assumption that it can only perpetuate perfection in all causes and subsequent effect it moves into motion. I see no real reason to think this. After all, perfection only exists insofar as we have imperfection to juxtapose it with.

We will be judged by this perfect being. In order for It to do that, the perfect being must at least comprehend our imperfections in order to judge them.

But I can be wrong. Just ask my wife. She keeps a list.

If we accept the myth of Adam and Eve how would they have known choice? The concept of good and bad came from the fruit so they were naïve in their thought about it. Also the question becomes, to me, can perfection create imperfection. Why would a perfect being create imperfection?

 

[Vonsalza]

If we accept the myth of Adam and Eve how would they have known choice? The concept of good and bad came from the fruit so they were naïve in their thought about it. Also the question becomes, to me, can perfection create imperfection. Why would a perfect being create imperfection?

Keep in mind, God told them to not eat it before they chose to eat it. They just had to do as they were told by their Maker. However, they didn’t. Their sin was the sin of disobedience (NOT necessarily the sin of eating the “apple”), even though they were coerced by Lucifer. The elements of choice are clearly there. Otherwise, you implicitly argue that they were forced to eat it. I doubt The Fall would have occurred under that situation.

The concept of “good and bad” originated with Lucifer, frankly. He was the origin of disobedience and infected mankind with it by coercion. Whether you think that’s “fair” is subjective.

Why would a perfect being create imperfection? The most obvious philosophical answer, to me, is “So creation can know the perfection of the perfect being”. A perfect being is only perfect if you have imperfection to compare it to. Without it, there is no “perfect being”; there’s only a “being”.

I think it’s also mega-important to reign-in a word like “perfection”, since it means so many different things to different people. God is more precisely described behaviorally as “sinless”. Does that mean He can’t know what sin is? Obviously not - God also comprehends sin enough to judge it. And again, we must have sin in order to recognize sinlessness.

 

[tonyrey]

If we accept the myth of Adam and Eve how would they have known choice? The concept of good and bad came from the fruit so they were naïve in their thought about it. Also the question becomes, to me, can perfection create imperfection. Why would a perfect being create imperfection?

Only God is perfect in **every **respect…

 

[NM505StKate]

Keep in mind, God told them to not eat it before they chose to eat it. They just had to do as they were told by their Maker. However, they didn’t. Their sin was the sin of disobedience (NOT necessarily the sin of eating the “apple”), even though they were coerced by Lucifer. The elements of choice are clearly there. Otherwise, you implicitly argue that they were forced to eat it. I doubt The Fall would have occurred under that situation.

The concept of “good and bad” originated with Lucifer, frankly. He was the origin of disobedience and infected mankind with it by coercion. Whether you think that’s “fair” is subjective.

Why would a perfect being create imperfection? The most obvious philosophical answer, to me, is “So creation can know the perfection of the perfect being”. A perfect being is only perfect if you have imperfection to compare it to. Without it, there is no “perfect being”; there’s only a “being”.

I think it’s also mega-important to reign-in a word like “perfection”, since it means so many different things to different people. God is more precisely described behaviorally as “sinless”. Does that mean He can’t know what sin is? Obviously not - God also comprehends sin enough to judge it. And again, we must have sin in order to recognize sinlessness.

First I know new testament is required to understand old testament but for this I am sticking with the Jewish concepts. Lucifer is not the snake in the garden, that was retconned in. The first sin, by Jewish standards, was Cain killing Abel. Also was the snake wrong by what it said? Again I know metaphor and all that but just reading the story as such the snake was the good guy.

Say the “fall” didn’t happen. Adam and Eve would be blissfully ignorant of everything. There would be no need to advance in technology, science, literature, art, anything because there was a paradise all around.

Now in my opinion the story of the garden is more of the people leaving a nomadic life and learning farming. It was used when a child asked why they did what they did. Like Aesop’s tales.

 

[NM505StKate]

Only God is perfect in **every **respect…

I wish to show you this link. askaphilosopher.wordpress.com/2012/11/27/can-a-perfect-being-create-something-imperfect/

 

[BobCatholic]

Few questions. If it is “our default” setting to go to hell then Yahweh created humans to be eternally punished? If yes then sure as heck not loving in any way. If no then why create human to by “default” go to hell?

I’m not saying that God created people that will be going to hell, no choice.

What I"m saying is that people are created imperfect, then they fail and are punished. How about actually fixing the buggy software so they don’t fail anymore? Hello. Stop punishing and actual fix the bugs.

Also your point on the scales not being perfect. Doesn’t it make sense that if a thing is perfect then it can only create perfect? If yes then why create an imperfection especially when one can create perfection. If no then Yahweh isn’t perfect???

Non sequitur. If you say " if a thing is perfect then it can only create perfect" that limits its ability to do things and thus it is not omnipotent and thus it is not perfect.

I don’t know why God created people imperfect and then punishes them. I’m just under the ridiculous idea that God should fix the bugs if we ask him to do so, and if he doesn’t, I don’t know how that is loving.

Jesus says “be ye perfect…” and then refuses to fix the defects.

 

[jackydarapper]

So why we are still here and suffering if the relationship is repaired? Why God doesn’t show up and open His arms for us?

So why do bad things happen to good people? Didn’t Jesus suffer for us on the cross? Wasn’t his suffering a total and complete sacrifice for our sins? Do we need to unite our sufferings with Jesus to be saved, or is suffering just some random event that happens here on earth with no afterlife consequences?

The bible has the answers. St. Paul says in Colossians 1:24:

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church”

That statement packs a lot of theology. Pope John Paul II said that Christ’s sufferings were lacking nothing. What this verse means is that Christ expects us to unite our sufferings with His. Peter talks about this in 1 Peter 4:13:

But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.
And why is this? For the sake of The Church, which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:23):

“For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.”

Christ’s sufferings overcame the original sin of Adam (1 Corinthians 15:21-22):

“For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Paul’s sufferings are somewhat different than the sufferings of Jesus, as they are for the benefit of the Church, the bride of Christ. The Church, established by Christ, (Matthew 16:18):

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

will suffer along with Christ until the end of time (John 15:20):

“Remember the word that I said to you, `A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you”

Some of these sufferings will be self inflicted wounds, like the priest and preacher scandals concerning sex, power, and money. Other sufferings will come from “the world”, like church desecrations, condemnations by politicians and “the media”, and ridicule by non-believers. Maybe even arrests and executions of believers one day, which will be come full circle from the days of the early Christians and the Romans. It happens in Communist countries like China today, as well as in Islamic countries and Hindu countries.

So what do we do with our sufferings? Jesus said to rejoice in them, in Matthew 5:11-12:

"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

Read more from … catholicbible101.com/whywesuffer.htm

 

[NM505StKate]

I’m not saying that God created people that will be going to hell, no choice.

What I"m saying is that people are created imperfect, then they fail and are punished. How about actually fixing the buggy software so they don’t fail anymore? Hello. Stop punishing and actual fix the bugs.

The problem then is if God created humans if a person is raised under a different faith then they are going to hell because it is “default” setting?

Non sequitur. If you say " if a thing is perfect then it can only create perfect" that limits its ability to do things and thus it is not omnipotent and thus it is not perfect.

I don’t know why God created people imperfect and then punishes them. I’m just under the ridiculous idea that God should fix the bugs if we ask him to do so, and if he doesn’t, I don’t know how that is loving.

Jesus says “be ye perfect…” and then refuses to fix the defects.

But God hasn’t “fixed the bugs”. Why would a child be born with cancer? All loving being that is omnipotent wouldn’t do that. Don’t claim sin because no “sin” is so horrible that cancer is a response to it. Also please read my link above. I am not going to throw around the word perfect anymore.

 

[jinglebelle]

God requires us to be failed creatures,if perfect there would be no need for Him. Could be seen more an act of commission on His part

 

[NM505StKate]

God requires us to be failed creatures,if perfect there would be no need for Him. Could be seen more an act of commission on His part

So by this then God has to be in some part evil. God cannot be all loving as that would be a contradiction to evil.

 

[tonyrey]

I wish to show you this link. askaphilosopher.wordpress.com/2012/11/27/can-a-perfect-being-create-something-imperfect/

I disagree that " ‘perfection’ implies totality, which is ipso facto complete, therefore sterile and therefore uncreative." Totality means complete as far as the Creator is concerned but it doesn’t follow that creation is impossible! St Paul’s statement solves the problem:
“In Him we live, move and have our being.” Nothing can be perfect without love which is essentially creative and unifying. To think otherwise is unrealistic because we know from experience that life without love is worthless. It is in love that we find fulfilment and perfection. God lacks nothing and if he lacked love he would be imperfect, sterile and incapable of creation. Love is not static but dynamic, fertile and inspiring - which is why the teaching of Jesus has survived for two thousand years and is the basis of the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity accepted by every civilised person throughout the world. The greatest sin of omission would be not to create anyone - which would be a far greater evil than creating us with free will because without free will we would be incapable of love…

 

[Vonsalza]

First I know new testament is required to understand old testament but for this I am sticking with the Jewish concepts. Lucifer is not the snake in the garden, that was retconned in. The first sin, by Jewish standards, was Cain killing Abel. Also was the snake wrong by what it said? Again I know metaphor and all that but just reading the story as such the snake was the good guy.

…I don’t think I need to explain to you the ontological issues involved with taking one particular Jewish interpretation when you feel like it, then switching to traditional Christian interpretation when you feel like it. When someone shows you a possible error in your rhetoric, you give yourself the “backdoor” of “Oh! I meant that ‘Jewishly/Catholicly’, or at least as I perceive them”.

And the claim that the snake was retconned seriously fails to jive with the Jewish Torah that I own. Check Sefer Bershit (Genesis) 3. He’s right there… Now maybe “the snake and Lucifer are NOT synonymous” might be a Jewish view. I’ll happily concede that.

Just because an idea is novel and exotic doesn’t mean you should adopt it without a little modest scrutiny; like actually checking a Torah.

Say the “fall” didn’t happen. Adam and Eve would be blissfully ignorant of everything. There would be no need to advance in technology, science, literature, art, anything because there was a paradise all around.

Say everything that could possibly happen happened or nothing that could possibly happen happened (or, well, didn’t). Speculation cat speculates.

Now in my opinion the story of the garden is more of the people leaving a nomadic life and learning farming. It was used when a child asked why they did what they did. Like Aesop’s tales.

Opinions are like exit-orifices.

Every story written before the advent of post-modernism was written for a point. Furthermore, the education, physical resources (like paper/parchment/stone tablet) and environment required for prose pre-Gutenberg were not common. This reality greatly magnifies the further back in time you go.

“It can mean whatever I think it means!” is thus a poor approach to any story that was written before, say, the advent of the car. We can, in fact, miss the point of the story.

It would be awesome if we had a group of folks who studied the writings, the historical contexts in which they were written and the languages they were written in. Looks at the Catholic episcopate, monastic orders, Curia, ect Oh wait. We totally do.

“I’ve never studied Hebrew or 14th century B.C. Hebrew culture, but my interpretation of a text from that time and place should receive the same weight as someone who has” - said no intelligent person ever.

 

[tonyrey]

The problem then is if God created humans if a person is raised under a different faith then they are going to hell because it is “default” setting?

But God hasn’t “fixed the bugs”. Why would a child be born with cancer? All loving being that is omnipotent wouldn’t do that. Don’t claim sin because no “sin” is so horrible that cancer is a response to it. Also please read my link above. I am not going to throw around the word perfect anymore.

Cancer has nothing to do with sin:
**
385** God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or** the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures**: and above all to the question of moral evil.

An earthly paradise is a primitive fantasy. Original sin is a fact which explains the blood-stained history of the human race but on the other hand disease and deformity have physical causes. There are bound to be unfortunate coincidences when an immense number of individuals are pursuing different goals. Variety is not only the spice of life it is also its very essence because every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. Our virtues bring their own reward while our vices incur their own punishment. In other words cosmic justice is at the heart of Creation - and ultimately we all get exactly what we deserve…