Did God Create Evil

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There are several very good posts on this issue, going both ways, actually.

Humbly, here is my “take” on this subject. As a philosopher, if God created EVERYthing, then HE DID! It’s a binary option…YES or NO.
Or, at least it’s possibility [in a nutshell…I won’t go into the technical philosophical debate because it will probably just be a “turn-off” and it isn’t really needed].

By Nature: Mankind is NOT creative, it is part of Creation…ONLY God un-Created] is creative. Not even the Evil ONE himself is Creative…he is also part of Creation.

So, God created EVIL into existence directly or at least in potentiality, as the “negative” of creating GOOD…since things come in pairs, each with its negation [by necessity].

The Motive: EVIL is necessary in the world in order for our FREE WILL to make sense and even to be a possibility…In other words, what point is there in giving FREE WILL if EVIL doesn’t exist?

The Explanation: Remember the Tree of Good & Evil our forefathers chose over the Tree of Life [Jesus] at the very beginning of the Time/Space principle? WELL…then…😉

***Note: *** Saying that God created Evil [or the potentiality of Evil] is NOT saying He put to work…WE did THAT, and the story that teaches us that lesson [so we won’t forget it!] is Adam & Eve’s FREE WILL selection to disobey God [Who DID warn them] due to mistrust and instead chose to trust the Serpent [talk about a BAD choice!], thus putting the EVIL principle to work…for posterity [what a legacy!]

But, don’t we constantly do that ourselves? How many times we distrust God’s mandates and chose to trust the opposite [presumably because the half-truths make *more sense to us!] creating havoc in our lives? Sounds familiar to anyone? It does to ME!

If only we had chosen the Tree of LIFE instead! Well, for now, let’s do the next best thing and honor LIFE as best we can…👍
 
Sunflower15 said:
There are several very good posts on this issue, going both ways, actually.

Humbly, here is my “take” on this subject. As a philosopher, if God created EVERYthing, then HE DID! It’s a binary option…YES or NO.
Or, at least it’s possibility [in a nutshell…I won’t go into the technical philosophical debate because it will probably just be a “turn-off” and it isn’t really needed].

By Nature: Mankind is NOT creative, it is part of Creation…ONLY God un-Created] is creative. Not even the Evil ONE himself is Creative…he is also part of Creation.

So, God created EVIL into existence directly or at least in potentiality, as the “negative” of creating GOOD…since things come in pairs, each with its negation [by necessity].

The Motive: EVIL is necessary in the world in order for our FREE WILL to make sense and even to be a possibility…In other words, what point is there in giving FREE WILL if EVIL doesn’t exist?

The Explanation: Remember the Tree of Good & Evil our forefathers chose over the Tree of Life [Jesus] at the very beginning of the Time/Space principle? WELL…then…😉

***Note: *** Saying that God created Evil [or the potentiality of Evil] is NOT saying He put to work…WE did THAT, and the story that teaches us that lesson [so we won’t forget it!] is Adam & Eve’s FREE WILL selection to disobey God [Who DID warn them] due to mistrust and instead chose to trust the Serpent [talk about a BAD choice!], thus putting the EVIL principle to work…for posterity [what a legacy!]

But, don’t we constantly do that ourselves? How many times we distrust God’s mandates and chose to trust the opposite [presumably because the half-truths make *more sense to us!] creating havoc in our lives? Sounds familiar to anyone? It does to ME!

If only we had chosen the Tree of LIFE instead! Well, for now, let’s do the next best thing and honor LIFE as best we can…👍
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I am not a philosopher or schooled in philosophy. I can only speak from my own personal experience. I have to respectfully disagree with your current understanding of reality. First, you draw the wrong conclusion out of your premise. Your premise is true. Your conclusion is not.

Your basic premise is “if God created EVERYthing, then HE DID!” Yes, it is true that all that exists is directly willed by God. He is giving existence to all that exists (yet does not derive His own existence).

Where you and I part ways is that you include EVIL as one of those “things” that God created … as if from the outset … as if it was inherently a reality from the get go. That is absolutely not true. You have not yet grasped what EVIL is. Evil cannot exist with the Good. Evil is Goodness that has gone putrid, rotten, corrupted. You cannot have a bad apple unless you first have a good apple. It is Goodness (the primary object) that has gone bad … in other words a good apple gone rotten. Evil cannot exist without the Good. But the Good can exist without it going bad/rotten. A good apple can exist without it going bad. But a rotten apple cannot exist unless there first exists a good apple.

Now it is true that God created everything and everything that exists is kept in existence by the sheer will of God. But everything God created is Good … in its existence because it is willed by God. God does not will anything that He does not want to exist. Yes, God gave us the ability to drive the train. We could have chosen to keep the train on the tracks … but if anyone has eyes to see … reality is that the train has come off the track. Mankind has taken what is Good (innately) … and by the use of his own reason and will … steered the train in a different direction. God did not and does not directly WILL that the train come off the tracks. Yes, He gave us the means to do so, but having the gift or rather the ability to do so … does not fault the one who gave us the ability. If He had not given us reason and free-will, yes - the train would have stayed on the tracks … but then again you would not have beings who would be able to participate in any meaningful relationship with its Creator. We would not be able to LOVE GOD …and LOVE innately consists in rational beings who are able to reason and make choices (act by choice) - active objects participating in life … not passive objects just acted upon by other forces having no say so.

My basic conclusion contrary to yours - EVIL IS NOT NECESSARY.
Probable - Yes, Necessary - No
 
jkiernan56 said:
…
Now it is true that God created everything and everything that exists is kept in existence by the sheer will of God. But everything God created is Good … in its existence because it is willed by God. God does not will anything that He does not want to exist. …
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Am I understanding you correctly? Is your argument that while God did NOT create EVIL, HE does sustain it in existence? Does that make sense to you?

Your statement says “God does not will anything that He does not want to exist”…yet EVIL DOES EXIST… right?

Nothing can cause itself NOR sustain itself in existence. Nothing created [us included and the angelic beings - good or bad] can cause itself NOR sustain itself into existence.

Even the Evil One needs God to continue to exist…so does Hell… to Satan’s most terrible punishment & worse embarrassment!

So, even if a THING were to be able to sustain itself [after coming into existence], why would God not simply destroy it? [if presumably it is outside of His Will]

Please, DO understand I did NOT say God created EVIL as we know it, HE DID create
[because there is NO other source for ANYthing to come into existence OR to be sustained in existence]
the “potentiality” or possibility that needed to be put into “motion” by a FREE WILL… now,
WE DID that - THE *infamous *FALL . And we choose to keep it going every day, each of us…sadly…

Every speck of cosmic dust was willed by God into existence and must be sustained into existence continually by God…otherwise, if God were to momentarily “forget” about this speck of cosmic dust, even for the smallest fraction of time, it would cease to exist!

That is how ALMIGHTY the ALMIGHTY truly IS!
 
jkiernan56 said:
…

My basic conclusion contrary to yours - EVIL IS NOT NECESSARY.
Probable - Yes, Necessary - No
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Uh, h…
If Evil were that “optional”…Why did God think it necessary to go through the horrible Agony, Passion and Death that He did go through?

Couldn’t He simply “WISH/ WILL” it away in His thoughts? Hm,m…
 
Sunflower15 said:
Am I understanding you correctly? Is your argument that while God did NOT create EVIL, HE does sustain it in existence? Does that make sense to you?

Your statement says “God does not will anything that He does not want to exist”…yet EVIL DOES EXIST… right?
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Yes, you understand me correctly. God does NOT will Evil nor is God the “cause” of evil. That I know is absolutely true. Evil is contrary to the very nature of the Holiness of God.

Now God does give existence to all that exists. But God only gives existence to what is Good … and allows us to take what is innately Good … and corrupt it. So in that sense you can say that God by giving existence thus “allows” the existence of Evil - but God is not the cause of it. Giving existence and being the “cause” of what that existence becomes are not one and the same.

I see you would like to say that since God gives existence that He also is “making” evil happen (ie - the cause of it). In that context of an “indirect bystander” that is true. But understood in the proper context - God is not “willing” and “wanting” evil to exist. He is allowing it to exist as a by product of human free will. Indirectly by giving existence, He allows Evil to exist. He is willing the Good, and innately in the Good of what He as created is Reason and Free-Will. God gives that existence as well. Now God does not take our Reason and Free-Will and “make” evil directly. But yes, in the very act of when something Good is being corrupted, God is giving existence to the Good and thus in that sense is “present” in it.

God (if He wanted) could stop thinking of His creation and Evil would not exist - but then again neither would you and I. Before the creation of the world, Evil did not exist. There are not dueling forces within the Godhead. But by creating beings with reason and free-will, He allows the ability and possibility of goodness to go corrupt … and that it did … but that is not the end of the story 🙂
 
Sunflower15 said:
Uh, h…
If Evil were that “optional”…Why did God think it necessary to go through the horrible Agony, Passion and Death that He did go through?

Couldn’t He simply “WISH/ WILL” it away in His thoughts? Hm,m…
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If man had not sinned, Christ would not have had to die on the Cross - plain and simple.
Evil did not have to happen. The Cross in that sense did not have to happen. God did not want it to happen … did not will it to happen. But God having the full deck of cards in His hands, knew what would happen if He created beings with reason and free-will … and what He would have to do to redeem it … and He chose to do it …

When I experienced the Holiness of God and realized that God didn’t have to create anything … those were my very words … “why, why, WHY did You bother to create the world”? … it was like in the words of the Psalmist … “what is man that you should think of him”? You and I don’t deserve anything … we don’t even deserve to exist.
 
jkiernan56 said:
Yes, you understand me correctly. God does NOT will Evil nor is God the “cause” of evil. That I know is absolutely true. Evil is contrary to the very nature of the Holiness of God.

Now God does give existence to all that exists. But God only gives existence to what is Good … and allows us to take what is innately Good … and corrupt it. So in that sense you can say that God by giving existence thus “allows” the existence of Evil - but God is not the cause of it. Giving existence and being the “cause” of what that existence becomes are not one and the same.

I see you would like to say that since God gives existence that He also is “making” evil happen (ie - the cause of it). In that context of an “indirect bystander” that is true. But understood in the proper context - God is not “willing” and “wanting” evil to exist. He is allowing it to exist as a by product of human free will. Indirectly by giving existence, He allows Evil to exist. He is willing the Good, and innately in the Good of what He as created is Reason and Free-Will. God gives that existence as well. Now God does not take our Reason and Free-Will and “make” evil directly. But yes, in the very act of when something Good is being corrupted, God is giving existence to the Good and thus in that sense is “present” in it.

God (if He wanted) could stop thinking of His creation and Evil would not exist - but then again neither would you and I …
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The really strange thing is that contrary to what usually happens where people may agree on a premise to then disagree on the conclusion, we do the opposite!
We disagree on the premise to then agree on the conclusion! How strange is that!:confused:

Not in the least…I would rather cease to exist [to use this language] than to believe that God Wills ANY Evil whatsoever on innocent beings! He IS a loving, merciful God!

What I’m trying to say is that He Willed the potentiality of Evil as a necessity for the gift of FREE WILL, it simply would be a moot point otherwise…

Then, WE caused or “set into motion” this Evil in potentiality [possibility], by misusing this gift of FREE WILL to choose to partake of the Tree of Good & Evil rather than the much better option of the Tree of Life [presumably eternal life]…

However, the ALMIGHTY cannot be reduced to not being THE ONLY source of ALL existence…
 
Sunflower15 said:
What I’m trying to say is that He Willed the potentiality of Evil as a necessity for the gift of FREE WILL, it simply would be a moot point otherwise…
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OK - now you and I are on the same page. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. Yes, it is obvious that evil is a necessity for the gift of free-will. I can totally agree with you in that context. But you can see that I cannot (in my right mind) allow any connection to the Holiness of God and the direct willing or wanting of evil. In that context, God did not want it to happen … but by giving existence and free-will He allowed the possibility and the ability for it to come about … that the human race could take what God has made Good … and use it in a way that would corrupt it. God does not and cannot will evil. It is contrary to the very essence of who God is in Himself.
 
Sunflower15 said:
However, the ALMIGHTY cannot be reduced to not being THE ONLY source of ALL existence…
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Hmmmm . I have to disagree with you again on that statement.
God is definitely the ONLY source of all existence. But the existence of evil, is the willing by God of what is only Good … and beings with free-will take what God wills is Good and misuse it … in a way that corrupts it. God gives existence, but does not corrupt. He gives existence to what becomes corrupt - but does not directly will and cause corruption in and of itself. That is caused by you and me by how we drive the train.
 
If evil is the privation of good then God only had to create good-and include the gift of free will as one of these goods-for the possibility of evil to occur. There is no possibility of free will except that a being is free to choose a lesser good over a greater one.
 
fhansen said:
If evil is the privation of good then God only had to create good-and include the gift of free will as one of these goods-for the possibility of evil to occur. There is no possibility of free will except that a being is free to choose a lesser good over a greater one.
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I liken to taking what is good and throwing it against the wall … and smashing it … or taking a beautiful painting … and throwing mud and grease all over it … destroying its beauty.
 
jkiernan56 said:
If man had not sinned, Christ would not have had to die on the Cross - plain and simple.

Back to the Garden of Eden…the choice between the Tree of Good & Evil [putting Evil in motion / Sin entering the World] and the Tree of Life [Eternal Like in union with God] There are even references to Jesus Christ on the Cross as the new Tree of Life that offers a second chance to eternal life…

Evil did not have to happen. True…Adam & Eve chose it…we continue choosing it every day…

The Cross in that sense did not have to happen. God did not want it to happen … did not will it to happen. But God having the full deck of cards in His hands, knew what would happen if He created beings with reason and free-will …

Exactly…and can Free Will exist without the existence of Good AND of Evil…can a choice be a choice without at least TWO choices? If God creates the choice must He not created [at same time] the choices to chose from?

That is intellectual dishonesty…the reasoning just doesn’t follow.

Neither does if follow that He would sustain something in existence [by at the very least allowing it to continue] without first willing its possibility. That would be a contradiction…God doesn’t contradict Himself. He IS perfect!

and what He would have to do to redeem it … and He chose to do it …

:For God so loved the world…"
However, the HOW He chose to redeem it is a good pointer of the Evil present…Death is the result of Sin, Sin needs Free Will and the potentiality of Evil [as a choice], Free Will and at least 2 choices must Exist, ALL Existence comes from ONE source - God! [some only in “potentiality,” such as the “negatives” of what is created in “actuality”]

When I experienced the Holiness of God and realized that God didn’t have to create anything … those were my very words … “why, why, WHY did You bother to create the world”? … it was like in the words of the Psalmist … “what is man that you should think of him”? You and I don’t deserve anything … we don’t even deserve to exist.

Very well put! LOVE is the answer for the questions, though…
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jkiernan56 said:
I liken to taking what is good and throwing it against the wall … and smashing it … or taking a beautiful painting … and throwing mud and grease all over it … destroying its beauty.
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Well, we’ve certainly done a lot of that!
 
fhansen said:
Well, we’ve certainly done a lot of that!
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Not only done … but still doing … and trust me … the accuser of the brothers knows how to stick it to you … when you are not living with a clean conscience 🙂
 
jkiernan56 said:
Hmmmm . I have to disagree with you again on that statement.
God is definitely the ONLY source of all existence. But the existence of evil, is the willing by God of what is only Good … and beings with free-will take what God wills is Good and misuse it … in a way that corrupts it. God gives existence, but does not corrupt. He gives existence to what becomes corrupt - but does not directly will and cause corruption in and of itself. That is caused by you and me by how we drive the train.
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You nor I could “drive the train” to the “wrong” destination if we had not ability to do so…we were given that ability…so the ability to do so AND the destination pre-existed our choice …

I know what scares you about the argument…but there is NO need to be scared…great minds have previously dealt with all these issues…such as St. Anselm, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and many, many more…

The distinction is that He did NOT Will for us to make the wrong choice, though He created and sustains the gifts of Free Will and of the choices of Good AND of Evil, so we can decide for ourselves freely…

Philosophers will distinguish also between existing in ACTUALITY or in POTENTIALITY…meaning the actual thing or its possibility only…

I think this last distinction solves the dilemma…
 
Sunflower15 said:
You nor I could “drive the train” to the “wrong” destination if we had not ability to do so…we were given that ability…so the ability to do so AND the destination pre-existed our choice …

I know what scares you about the argument…but there is NO need to be scared…great minds have previously dealt with all these issues…such as St. Anselm, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and many, many more…

The distinction is that He did NOT Will for us to make the wrong choice, though He created and sustains the gifts of Free Will and of the choices of Good AND of Evil, so we can decide for ourselves freely…

Philosophers will distinguish also between existing in ACTUALITY or in POTENTIALITY…meaning the actual thing or its possibility only…

I think this last distinction solves the dilemma…
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“Perfect LOVE casts out ALL fear” … I have had a taste of that LOVE … and I know that LOVE HIMSELF … became a human being … and so I no longer have to wonder about what LOVE looks like … it is now visible in a human Person … who is also the very source and essence of LOVE … not just a vehicle that transmits it … but in His very Person …He is LOVE.itself … My hope is the LOVE of Christ … if approached and accepted with humilty … I fear I will see all my actions in the light of God’s Holiness … and yes that scares the Hell out of me … but I also know the Goodness of God … His Grace … His Heart is my Good because God loves me.
 
jkiernan56 said:
I fear I will see all my actions in the light of God’s Holiness … and yes that scares the Hell out of me …

Good thing!👍

but I also know the Goodness of God … His Grace …
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Yes…every single nanosecond of every single subparticle of cosmic dust is a Grace of God! This is not a frivolous point! Remember: “from dust we come, to dust we shall return…”

I think we are going to the same train station aboard different trains…👍
 
Sunflower15 said:
Yes…every single nanosecond of every single subparticle of cosmic dust is a Grace of God! This is not a frivolous point! Remember: “from dust we come, to dust we shall return…”

I think we are going to the same train station aboard different trains…👍
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I hope we aren’t on different trains. One of the saints said “all the way to heaven is heaven because Jesus is the Way.”
 
tr1strev said:
The question is this: did God create evil? In the creed each Sunday, we proclaim that “We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.” If God is the creator of all things seen and unseen and if evil exists and it can both be seen through the actions of people or unseen, does it follow that God created evil?
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God created the Law so that sin could be possible. I forget the passage, but could be in 2 Cor(St. Paul)

AndyF
 
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