Did God Create the Best Possible Universe?

[Tomdstone]

Your argument could be made for countless people on this planet. Can you explain how all their suffering and untimely deaths could be prevented?

On a case by case basis, each case can be prevented by an all Powerful God. In the case of the Puerto Rican mother with 4 children, God could have slighthly deflected the arm of the assailant preventing the knife from plunging into her heart. The assailant still has free will and he committed a mortal sin, but he was prevented from carrying it out at the last minute by the power of God who is omnipotent and knows all, and by His merciful power, the children and mother would end up alive and well in a better possible universe…

 

[Aloysium]

The Christian God is not about power, but of love.
As Christians we view ourselves as eternal beings. Our time here is spent in preparing ourselves for our rightful place in the universe, which we discarded in seeking our own ends. This is our second chance,
Since we are all sinners in the light of pure love, God could have prevented all this from happening by killing Noah and his family along with the others. His aim is to save us, to have us join Him in eternity.

 

[arte]

If it was a terrible split second choice of risking your own life to save your child, you might well do it. But if someone stole your child’s bike, you wouldn’t risk your life to get the bike back. So what did Jesus die for, I can’t imagine it was for anything petty like the theft of bikes.

Wow, I don’t know how you’ve gone from: “Can God love His children more than Himself?” which I have answered, to “What did Jesus die for?”** especially as you say at the end of your post: “None of us can know what sins Jesus died for.” ** Notwithstanding this Eric, I will try to answer your question as best as possible. **These are my own personal beliefs/disbeliefs. ** I do not believe in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve and original sin. They are at best an allegory. From the above, I believe that Jesus did not die to open the gates of Heaven which had been locked by God the Father because of original sin. Jesus died because He was a real threat to the Jewish hierarchy namely: the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Scribes. He was also a real problem for the Romans in the guise of the Governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate. The Holy Scriptures paint Pontius Pilate so well that you would think he was almost a “Christian”. The truth is completely different. Pilate was an evil dictator; completely ruthless and murderous. He wouldn’t have had a second thought about having Jesus crucified. The Holy Scriptures also paint that the Jews were solely responsible for the death of Jesus. I can vividly remember in Catholic primary school in the late 1950’s, the Anti-Semitism taught by my teacher because the Jews effectively killed Jesus.

Jesus did die for the sins of mankind from the dawn of Homo sapiens right through time to present day and into the future of mankind. He died because of His 2nd Greatest Commandment – “to love your fellow man as you do yourself”. Jesus is the great peacemaker. Jesus should not have died for any of our sins because we were created as imperfect creatures. However, He left a massive stamp of LOVE on mankind, which will always be sorely needed. John 10:10-11: "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they (us – my words) may have life, and have it more abundantly. I am **the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep” (us – my words). ** We could have life and have it more abundantly, if we all obeyed Jesus’ 2nd Greatest Commandment. By His death, Jesus created a TIMELESS MARKER OF LOVE AND PEACE for all of mankind.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments; this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who nailed him to the cross? We know that he prayed on the cross, ‘forgive them Father’

I completely agree that Jesus lived by the greatest commandments; this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. And, we should do exactly the same. This is the TIMELESS MARKER OF LOVE AND PEACE for all of mankind being put into action by Jesus. Before I do anything like typing this right now, I always have Jesus “nagging” me saying: “what would I have done”. We state this love of our neighbour every time we say the Lord’s Prayer by saying: “as we forgive the trespasses (sins) of others”. One of our ex parish priests said Judas would have gone to Heaven because he was so full of remorse that he refused the “.blood money” and committed suicide. Jesus demonstrated His incredible love for us when He prayed on the cross: “forgive them Father”.

I am not sure that any of us deserve salvation by what we have done, we depend on the mercy and forgiveness of Jesus.

On the contrary, I believe the vast majority of mankind deserves salvation.** I do not believe in hell and I would be willing to discuss this further if requested.** I believe the punishment should fit the crime (sin). No one should be tortured. There is a minority of mankind that I am unsure of. These would be the likes of Hitler and murderers etc who show no remorse whatsoever for their victims. I lean towards Universal Salvation but for this group I would accept the punishment described in Judaism; destruction of their souls – complete oblivion.

None of us can know what sins Jesus died for, none of us can know for sure that we are saved, we just hope and pray, and try and change our ways.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t our Church teach that Jesus died for “our” original sin thereby putting us right with God. This allowed us through baptism and belief in Jesus Christ as our Saviour, entry to eternal life in Heaven. I was taught that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross unlocked the gates of Heaven which had been locked by God the Father because of Adam and Eve’s original sin. I can also remember being taught that if you do not believe you are good enough to go to Heaven – you will not go to Heaven. I believe the vast majority of mankind (could be all but see my rider about Hitler etc above) will go to Heaven. But, we will have to do some form of correction/purification time in purgatory first. The length of time we spend in purgatory is directly proportional to the severity and quantity of sins unconfessed before we die.

 

[tonyrey]

On a case by case basis, each case can be prevented by an all Powerful God. In the case of the Puerto Rican mother with 4 children, God could have slighthly deflected the arm of the assailant preventing the knife from plunging into her heart. The assailant still has free will and he committed a mortal sin, but he was prevented from carrying it out at the last minute by the power of God who is omnipotent and knows all, and by His merciful power, the children and mother would end up alive and well in a better possible universe…

Don’t you think it would be obvious to the whole world that something extraordinary is happening if** each **case of murder, rape, torture or sexual abuse is prevented miraculously? Where do you draw the line?

 

[wmw]

The last posts from arte and Tomdstone really start sounding like everything has to be in perfect accounting. Bean counters who are asking how many molecules of Christ’s blood have to be poured out of Him to account for bike theft and since God can do anything how much of anything is mine to demand from him. It’s just not fair that anyone should die at all, except that the wages of sin is death and we are worthy of not just death, but non-existence. For all that is, is by the gift of His love and mercy. All this bean counting is just a way of trying to have God accountable to us and not the other way around.

 

[Tomdstone]

Don’t you think it would be obvious to the whole world that something extraordinary is happening if** each **case of murder, rape, torture or sexual abuse is prevented miraculously? Where do you draw the line?

With God, you don’t draw the line. God is all Powerful and all knowing and he can easily deflect the arm of a drug addict to avoid stabbing the heart of a Puerto Rican mother of four children.

 

[arte]

The last posts from arte and Tomdstone really start sounding like everything has to be in perfect accounting. Bean counters who are asking how many molecules of Christ’s blood have to be poured out of Him to account for bike theft and since God can do anything how much of anything is mine to demand from him. It’s just not fair that anyone should die at all, except that the wages of sin is death and we are worthy of not just death, but non-existence. For all that is, is by the gift of His love and mercy. All this bean counting is just a way of trying to have God accountable to us and not the other way around.

Can you please explain where my post is anything like what you state above? Please read my post and critique it properly rather than just replying with an overall comment concerning 2 different peoples’ posts. What has: “Bean counters who are asking how many molecules of Christ’s blood have to be poured out of Him to account for bike theft “, got to do with my post? A hypothetical bike theft was mentioned by Eric, not me. “The wages of sin is death” is from Romans 6:23. Do you believe that death entered our World because of sin? If so, whose sin caused death to enter our World? I believe death entered this universe from the moment it was created by God about 13.8 billion years ago. Our universe is imperfect so for me that’s a logical reason why there is death on our planet and anywhere else in the universe. I am trying to reason why God created an imperfect universe. The reasoning in my post is DIRECTLY RELATED to the topic of this thread – **Did God create the best possible universe? ** Can you please give us your “take” on: ** Did God create the best possible universe? ** Why are we “worthy of not just death, but non-existence?” From the comment: “For all that is, is by the gift of His love and mercy”; I am trying to line up in my posts the above attributes of God namely LOVE and MERCY with our Church’s (and Christianity’s) teachings on life and especially life after death. God’s love and mercy is far greater than mankind’s love and mercy. Wouldn’t you agree? “All this bean counting is just a way of trying to have God accountable to us and not the other way around”. Shouldn’t God line up with the attributes given to Him (or said by Him) such as OMNIPOTENT BEING, DIVINE JUSTICE, LOVE, MERCY, and FORGIVENESS? We are not omnipotent beings but we do have a reasonable justice system in the developed World, and we do possess the attributes of love, mercy, and forgiveness. However, our standards for the above attributes are no where near those of God. Do you agree?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

With God, you don’t draw the line. God is all Powerful and all knowing and he can easily deflect the arm of a drug addict to avoid stabbing the heart of a Puerto Rican mother of four children.

If there is no God, the woman is dead, end of story.

We seem determined to get things wrong on Earth, if there is a God, then God can put all things right in a greater good life after death, God’s will be done.

 

[arte]

Quote:
Going back on track to the title of this thread, there must be a reason why God created an imperfect reason. We can only speculate on what that reason is but we will find out for definite when we die. I speculate that the reason why God wants us to experience this imperfect universe is so that we will more fully enjoy the paradise of Heaven. For some reason, living in this imperfect universe is an essential part of our journey to and enjoyment of Heaven.

I don’t believe God creates imperfect reasons! Physical imperfection is inevitable because the laws of nature cannot cater for every situation. In an immensely complex system there are bound to be misfortunes for which no one is responsible.That is another reason why there cannot be an earthly paradise. Perfection is the monopoly of Heaven.

Sorry tonyrey, I made a typo: “Going back on track to the title of this thread, there must be a reason why God created an imperfect reason”. The last word in the sentence should be “universe” and not “reason”. I don’t know how you did it but you gave an excellent answer anyway and I completely agree with it - well done.

I just need to read the rest of your reply and may come back again.

 

[tonyrey]

Quote:
Going back on track to the title of this thread, there must be a reason why God created an imperfect reason. We can only speculate on what that reason is but we will find out for definite when we die. I speculate that the reason why God wants us to experience this imperfect universe is so that we will more fully enjoy the paradise of Heaven. For some reason, living in this imperfect universe is an essential part of our journey to and enjoyment of Heaven.

Sorry tonyrey, I made a typo: “Going back on track to the title of this thread, there must be a reason why God created an imperfect reason”. The last word in the sentence should be “universe” and not “reason”. I don’t know how you did it but you gave an excellent answer anyway and I completely agree with it - well done.

I just need to read the rest of your reply and may come back again.

I think “a reason why God created an imperfect reason” is quite cute! It does make sense if we regard the universe as one of the reasons we are alive. It is a home designed for countless creatures:

“My Father’s house has many mansions…” John 12:2

 

[tonyrey]

Don’t you think it would be obvious to the whole world that something extraordinary is happening if** each **

If there were no line there would be countless scientifically inexplicable events which would make it impossible to deny that a benevolent Power exists. How else would you account for them? By Chance - the blind Goddess? :ehh:

 

[tonyrey]

We look at the world and see different things.
Within the context of eternity, we see a disadvantaged mother out of love sacrificing and facing the challenges of uncaring society, that includes all of us folks, to do the best for her kids. Evil comes and steals her life from her and those who love her.
The universe that produced the goodness that shines from her being is possible only if the reality of the evil that took her from us exists as a possibility. That it could and does was made right by God at the foundation of creation. We live in the hope that we will all meet in paradise.
BTW - When you praise her actions and her life, you are loving love.- the first of two commandments given to us by the Word.

:clapping: We can choose to be positive or negative in our view of life…

 

[tonyrey]

If there is no God, the woman is dead, end of story.

We seem determined to get things wrong on Earth, if there is a God, then God can put all things right in a greater good life after death, God’s will be done.

It wouldn’t make sense to believe in justice if life is fundamentally unjust. It would be nothing more than a human fantasy not worth bothering about:

“I’m all right, Jack. To hell with the rest!”

 

[tonyrey]

The last posts from arte and Tomdstone really start sounding like everything has to be in perfect accounting. Bean counters who are asking how many molecules of Christ’s blood have to be poured out of Him to account for bike theft and since God can do anything how much of anything is mine to demand from him. It’s just not fair that anyone should die at all, except that the wages of sin is death and we are worthy of not just death, but non-existence. For all that is, is by the gift of His love and mercy. All this bean counting is just a way of trying to have God accountable to us and not the other way around.

Unfortunately the sceptics believe Christ’s blood is worthless and need down-to-earth reasons why a Creator would allow so much suffering and injustice.

 

[Achilles6129]

1. God can allow unjustified evil/suffering temporarily because he can undo/erase unjustified evil/suffering
2. Just because there’s been a delay in intervention doesn’t mean there never will be an intervention

 

[wmw]

1. God can allow unjustified evil/suffering temporarily because he can undo/erase unjustified evil/suffering
2. Just because there’s been a delay in intervention doesn’t mean there never will be an intervention

Very Good! Though in “1)” if all suffering is justified in the end by Him then He allows only a temporarily seemingly unjustified earth rather than any fully unjustified suffering. Also, if all evil consequences are undone evil too is only a temporal point of view. Paul tells of dealing with this kind of idea and says the consequences of evil to the evil person are real thus for the sake of more grace “we can’t sin all the more”.

In the afterlife not only will every knee bend, but if we feel short changed (of course we won’t) it will be more of a “wow, it would have been better if I had suffered more.” (not in a self destructive way, but in a “I should have done more to help others rather than pamper myself, taken risks, sacrifice more for others even to my detriment here on earth”)

 

[Tomdstone]

In the afterlife not only will every knee bend, but if we feel short changed (of course we won’t) it will be more of a “wow, it would have been better if I had suffered more.” (not in a self destructive way, but in a “I should have done more to help others rather than pamper myself, taken risks, sacrifice more for others even to my detriment here on earth”)

How do you know this?

 

[tonyrey]

How do you know this?

If there were no afterlife it wouldn’t make sense to believe in social justice. In this life there is no answer to the bomb or the bullet. The law of the jungle would prevail…

 

[Aloysium]

How do you know this?

I know what I know intuitively, through the reality that is my existence at this very moment.
I can only try my best to explain it.

Much has been revealed in the teachings of the Church; this should be enough but it is because they have the ring of truth, which is ever growing, that I returned to Catholicism.

I exist and that existence includes the reality of the physical universe of which I am a participant.
I am matter relating to matter.
This relationship has aspects that are like billiard balls colliding

• photons hitting the retina setting up a cascade of neuralogical events, whose pattern of excitation is the physical reality of my seeing the materiel monitor in front of me and my typing in these words.

The relationship in which we are now engaging is also mental

• there is meaning to these words, which I may or may not be capable of transmitting to the reader.

At the same time, this all exists - it is real.
All this is a finite expression of being. My being is not merged with yours.
We are separate beings connecting intellectually about matters that transcend the world of things.
This universe can be imagined as a shattered mirror, where each individual life has its own being, the alternative one massive consciousness. This isn’t actually the case.
Consciousness is not an object, but involves relating. Whether it is perceptions or ideas or feelings, they connect us with what is other.

We are souls

• if you think about it, you will lose it
• but, engage in a dialogue, give yourself to knowing and loving the person in front of you and you will see something, someone that is totally inexplicable, being what it is - the reality of a living human being.
• seeing death, you will see that that person is no longer with us; look into the eyes, that person is gone.

When I was a kid, having been tormented by my very existence for a long time, and having read much on the various religions, philosophies and psychologies, I vowed, taking a cue from the Buddha under the bodhi tree, that I would never rise again unless I knew what this is all about. Let us say, I never feared death again. I fear what I have done and my not being able to do what I should. I fear what keeps me from that which (actually He who) is the fulfillment of life.

I will die. All that I have will remain in this world - my body, my belongings, the remnants of what i have done in this world. I will remain in God’s eternal being. The people I love will remain in that love. It is all about love - it is eternal.

I can’t say I know much of anything, but that’s my take on it anyway.

 

[sdegutis]

Bear with me for a moment, I’m no philosopher! But I do have an armchair, so I suppose that earns me the right to wax armchair-philosophical for a minute!

We really don’t know how many worlds God has created.

I posit that God has in fact only created the worlds which currently exist, and has never created and destroyed any worlds before hand.

First, if God is all-knowing, then God knows the results of His actions before He takes them. Thus, God does not have need of creating a world simply for the sake of learning or discovering what the results of it would be.

Second, the actions of all beings tend toward their needs. Yet we know that God has no needs and therefore no motivation to take such an action as to create another world.

Someone may object, saying that God did choose to create at least one other world for the sake of manifesting His omnipotence to some existing being, for the benefit of that being. I say, God has already revealed His glory in varying degrees in all of the worlds that we already know of, with Heaven being the ultimate manifestation of His Glory. Therefore it is sufficient to reveal a portion of Heaven to that being to manifest His Glory to that being for its spiritual benefit.