Did God Create the Best Possible Universe?

[JapaneseKappa]

Here is the problem: in what (metaphysical, not temporal) order do the following things occur?

God’s knowledge of his creation
God’s creation of his creation
Creation’s exercise of free will

Now, consider if the metaphysical order is:
God knows → God creates → creation exercises free will
Then the “God has foreknowledge” objection is valid in a sense.

The order
God creates → God knows → creation exercises free will
Doesn’t make much sense because how could God create something without knowing what he was creating? How can he know the outcome of an event that hasn’t (metaphysically) happen yet

The order
God knows → creation exercises free will → God creates
Doesn’t make much sense because how can we exercise free will before being created?

The order
God creates → creation exercises free will → God knows
Makes the most sense, but again, how can God create if he doesn’t know what he is creating?

Furthermore: consider the oft-cited objection “these things could all be simultaneous! One would not precede the other!”

Then the entirety of “creation exercises free will” must be simultaneous with God’s creation and knowledge. I therefore can easily conclude the following:

Pontius Pilate’s decision to wash his hands is simultaneous with God’s creation.
The US people’s decision to elect Barack Obama is simultaneous with God’s creation.

Therefore, Pontius Pilate’s decision to wash his hands is simultaneous with the US people’s decision to elect Barack Obama. In fact, we can conclude that any two free-will decisions are simultaneous with each other by virtue of being simultaneous with God’s creation and/or knowledge. Therefore, all free will decisions are made simultaneously.

 

[Tomdstone]

Therefore, Pontius Pilate’s decision to wash his hands is simultaneous with the US people’s decision to elect Barack Obama. In fact, we can conclude that any two free-will decisions are simultaneous with each other by virtue of being simultaneous with God’s creation and/or knowledge. Therefore, all free will decisions are made simultaneously.

I don’t think so, because simultaneous means occurring at the same time.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

I don’t think so, because simultaneous means occurring at the same time.

Then you can’t make the “they’re all simultaneous” response to the question:

Here is the problem: in what (metaphysical, not temporal) order do the following things occur?

God’s knowledge of his creation
God’s creation of his creation
Creation’s exercise of free will

 

[meltzerboy]

It seems more credible that the Creator permits rather wills imperfection. Would He deliberately inflict incurable diseases and deformities on His creatures?

Yes, you’re right. However, G-d still created a universe that is imperfect since it is susceptible to disease. Now you might believe that mankind created this kind of flawed universe by means of original sin and it was not G-d’s original plan. In that case, would you also say that the role of Jesus as Redeemer of original sin through baptism was not part of G-d’s original plan? This question is an honest one, and not meant to be argumentative in any way.

 

[Tomdstone]

Then you can’t make the “they’re all simultaneous” response to the question:

Simultaneous means occurring at the same time. This does not apply to God who is above time.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Simultaneous means occurring at the same time. This does not apply to God who is above time.

Here is the problem: in what (metaphysical, not temporal) order do the following things occur?

God’s knowledge of his creation
God’s creation of his creation
Creation’s exercise of free will

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, you’re right. However, G-d still created a universe that is imperfect since it is susceptible to disease. Now you might believe that mankind created this kind of flawed universe by means of original sin and it was not G-d’s original plan. In that case, would you also say that the role of Jesus as Redeemer of original sin through baptism was not part of G-d’s original plan? This question is an honest one, and not meant to be argumentative in any way.

The Catechism distinguishes natural evil from moral evil:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to** the limitations proper to creatures**: and above all to the question of moral evil.

Misfortunes occur within the framework of Design but they are outweighed by human folly, ignorance and selfishness. Although sin has caused an immense amount of needless suffering it is permitted by our divine Lord because without free will we would be incapable of love. Hundreds of years before Jesus was born Isaiah predicted that we would be liberated from slavery to sin:

Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53

The Holy One will indeed fulfil the divine plan:

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Isaiah 61
And so his prophecy has been accomplished to the ends of the earth. This is the best possible universe in spite of all the tragedies. Evil is inevitable but it is outweighed by the joy of heaven.

 

[tonyrey]

Well, he does that in Scripture doesn’t he?

Evidence?

 

[tonyrey]

Actually come back without the vitriol.

No vitriol, just statements of fact.

…and please check ad hominem…I never attacked you.

“My Tony, you really are threatened by Deist thought, aren’t you?” is a fallacy “in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized.” - wikipedia

No Tony, you called my God an ignoramus and so on.

Please consider this statement objectively:

A person who advocates not having children as a solution to the problem of evil must regard the Creator as a sadist or an ignoramus for having inflicted so much apparently needless suffering on His unfortunate victims.

In other words those who cause unnecessary suffering derive pleasure from inflicting it or don’t know what they are doing.

You need to explain why the deist God permits it; otherwise your objection to Christianity disintegrates.

BTW, I do not agree with Schopenhauer.

Then why do you believe not having children is a solution to the problem of evil? Do you exclude everyone who has already been born?

 

[tonyrey]

JapaneseKappa
Here is the problem: in what (metaphysical, not temporal) order do the following things occur?

God’s knowledge of his creation
God’s creation of his creation
Creation’s exercise of free will

From the point of view of eternity knowledge, creation and freedom co-exist:

“In Him we live, move and have our being”… Acts 17:27

The Creator is the timeless foundation of all finite beings.

 

[Achilles6129]

Correct. Your perceptions of sadism and ignorance can be wrong. They could actually be good traits according to God.

If they were good traits according to God then they wouldn’t be sadism or ignorance

Evidence?

Look at Deuteronomy 28, the book of Revelation, Leviticus 26, etc. All over Scripture God inflicts terrible calamities upon those who disobey his commands.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Yes, you’re right. However, G-d still created a universe that is imperfect since it is susceptible to disease. Now you might believe that mankind created this kind of flawed universe by means of original sin and it was not G-d’s original plan. In that case, would you also say that the role of Jesus as Redeemer of original sin through baptism was not part of G-d’s original plan? This question is an honest one, and not meant to be argumentative in any way.

You’ve raised a very profound question here.

Since God exists outside time and sees the entire unfolding of the universe all at once (an aspect of his omniscience) we can speak of an original plan" only provisionally. He had to have known from his eternity that the “original plan” would be supplanted by a back-up plan. So you might say the back-up plan was part of the original plan. Since Jesus is both God and man, God the Son (who is also omniscient) would have known his role in redemption of mankind through Jesus Christ.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Since Jesus is both God and man, God the Son (who is also omniscient) would have known his role in redemption of mankind through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-10: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

1 Peter 1:18-21: For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Rev 13:6-8: And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Col 1:15-20: The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. nd he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Cor 2:6-10: We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”—** the things God has prepared** for those who love him— these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

 

[arte]

In keeping with Jewish thought on the matter, I believe G-d created the best possible universe by making it imperfect. In this way, mankind can use its free will for good purposes by patching up the holes in the universe.

Yes, you’re right. However, G-d still created a universe that is imperfect since it is susceptible to disease. Now you might believe that mankind created this kind of flawed universe by means of original sin and it was not G-d’s original plan. In that case, would you also say that the role of Jesus as Redeemer of original sin through baptism was not part of G-d’s original plan? This question is an honest one, and not meant to be argumentative in any way.

This is my first post on this thread. I was active on the thread: “Is it possible that God can relent on eternal punishment in hell?” Original Sin often came up on the above thread and here also.

I have always struggled with the reason why God created an imperfect universe and have found some kind of a reason here by reading several of the posts. In order to give us “free will”, God created an imperfect universe. I may not have found the best example for this reasoning by using the above top quote by meltzerboy in Post# 334. I thought there were other posts to support this reasoning but cannot find them at the moment. Anyone know of any? It seems logical to me but I wish that God could have found another way of giving us free will. What also seems logical to me is that by creating an imperfect universe, it removes the perfect Garden of Eden, the perfect Adam and Eve, and therefore Original Sin.

A forum member on the other thread said that Original Sin is evident because people die. However, death is just a part of the natural laws of the imperfect universe that we live in. Everything and everyone in this universe eventually dies. Galaxies collide, stars die and planets die. Death has been a part of our imperfect universe ever since God created it about 13.8 billion years ago.

You could say that if there was free will, Adam and Eve could have exercised their free will thereby causing death to enter our World. If the Garden of Eden was perfect and Adam and Eve were perfect, even with free will, how did Adam and Eve commit a sin? Also, what is important to this thread is that having a perfect Garden of Eden and 2 perfect occupants shoots down the above reasoning for God creating an imperfect universe namely; **it was done in order to give us free will.
**

 

[Aloysium]

We most certainly suffer.
There is no better statement that addresses the mystery than that found in Christianity.
Our God knows suffering and His power is in love.
I find it beyond the capacity of my words to speak of the amazing reality that we are.
Existence in itself is miraculous.
All the beauty that creation contains as a mirror of its Creator, seen in the vastness of space and in a baby’s smile.
This is all sacred.
And suffering, how can it hurt so bad!? How does it hurt at all?
What wondrous adventures, life holds.

 

[arte]

We most certainly suffer.
There is no better statement that addresses the mystery than that found in Christianity.
Our God knows suffering and His power is in love.
I find it beyond the capacity of my words to speak of the amazing reality that we are.
Existence in itself is miraculous.
All the beauty that creation contains as a mirror of its Creator, seen in the vastness of space and in a baby’s smile.
This is all sacred.
And suffering, how can it hurt so bad!? How does it hurt at all?
What wondrous adventures, life holds.

We most certainly suffer.
There is no better statement that addresses the mystery than that found in Christianity.

Hi Aloysium,
I find it difficult to reply to your post because you have not said anything definitive in reply to my post. I don’t even know whether your post is intended as a reply to my post or something else. I will attempt a reply but it would help in future if you could be more specific. I take it by your reply that you believe in Adam and Eve and original sin. Am I correct? By “the mystery” do you mean how suffering entered our World? There is a much better statement that addresses “the mystery” than that found in Christianity i.e. Adam and Eve and original sin. In fact, from my post, there is “no mystery” at all to be addressed. It’s quite simple as to why there is suffering in our World. Our universe is not perfect and that is why there is suffering in our universe whether it be on this planet or any other planet. The writers of the Bible would have had very little or no knowledge whatsoever of our universe. They did the best possible for the time they lived in.

Our God knows suffering and His power is in love.

I completely agree especially: “His power is in love” but could you “flesh out” this statement a bit more like how this love affects us.

I find it beyond the capacity of my words to speak of the amazing reality that we are.
Existence in itself is miraculous.
All the beauty that creation contains as a mirror of its Creator, seen in the vastness of space and in a baby’s smile.
This is all sacred.

I completely agree with everything you have said above.

And suffering, how can it hurt so bad!? How does it hurt at all?

I am at a complete loss as to how to reply to this statement.

What wondrous adventures, life holds.

To a certain extent I agree especially when you are fit and in good health. However, I wouldn’t call being seriously ill a wondrous adventure!

 

[JapaneseKappa]

From the point of view of eternity knowledge, creation and freedom co-exist:

“In Him we live, move and have our being”… Acts 17:27

The Creator is the timeless foundation of all finite beings.

So all our free will decisions are metaphysically simultaneous?

 

[Tom_Baum]

You’ve raised a very profound question here.

Since God exists outside time and sees the entire unfolding of the universe all at once (an aspect of his omniscience) we can speak of an original plan" only provisionally. He had to have known from his eternity that the “original plan” would be supplanted by a back-up plan. So you might say the back-up plan was part of the original plan. Since Jesus is both God and man, God the Son (who is also omniscient) would have known his role in redemption of mankind through Jesus Christ.

You wrote, “He had to have known from his eternity that the “original plan” would be supplanted by a back-up plan.”

As far as “supplanted by a back-up plan”, I totally, totally disagree since this so-called “back-up plan” is really just part of the “original plan” as in that is HOW it is going to unfold, as opposed to this MIGHT BE the way it unfolds.

To me the “concept” and/or definition of Omniscience is very simple even tho I believe that it beyond our ability to conceive that a Being can actually be Omniscient, much less how a Being can be Omniscient and any being/s that He is Omniscient about having “free will” as opposed to “following a script” as in a “puppet on a string”.

Many people have written “alternate histories”, fiction, and they are interesting, at least to me, but Omniscience to me is the How (non-fiction) it will unfold not the virtually infinite number of ways that it Might (fiction) unfold.

As the old saying goes, "God created us in His Image and we have been trying to return the favor ever since.

Concerning, “we can speak of an original plan” only provisionally".

Is this because you believe that you not only need to understand absolutely everything about God but that you think/believe that you can actually understand absolutely everything about God.

This is merely my opinion but I think/believe that God is somewhat “bigger”, not in size but otherwise, than some of us are willing to concede.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Is this because you believe that you not only need to understand absolutely everything about God but that you think/believe that you can actually understand absolutely everything about God.

This is insulting, so I won’t be reading any more of your posts.

 

[Aloysium]

I am replying in general, preferring to share ideas rather than enter into the arguments to which these threads can devolve.
If what I say is helpful, good, if not, so be it. I do appreciate others’ views; they have helped me grow in my faith.

The problem may not be so much suffering as it is in the nature of pleasure.

What is the purpose of our existence?

• to commune with God as a community.

Communing with God is to have all our desires fulfilled, be they for truth, for goodness and for more life.
We find these in Him and we share them with each other.

True pleasure comes in knowing God, who is Love.
We find delight in beautiful things, in sex, in our own accomplishments.
God wants this all for us, and we had it in the Garden; we could eat of all the fruit except for that of the tree which was reserved for Him. That is a very long discussion in itself.

Back to pleasure: Where does it go bad?

• when it disconnects from the source of its goodness.
• when we are distracted from or seduced away from our commitment to the one true aim in life
  How do we do that?
• when we love that object more than He who created it.
• when in fulfilling the pleasure, we cause harm to another, or simply do not love them.
• when we disconnect the pleasure from its aim, its truth, its goodness
  It is God and our spiritual soul, created in His image, that are eternal. Pleasures, things, honours, power come and go and are meant to be shared rather than appropriated. They are transient, since everything has its season.
• Every pleasure then comes at a cost, before as sacrifice and/or later as a loss.

So, if we are to live, to enjoy, we will suffer.