Did God Create the Best Possible Universe?

[tonyrey]

Actually they do. I have eyes to see that many people are profoundly unhappy and miserable in their stuck lives. That there is a chronic despair never parting with them.

How could all the causes of misery and unhappiness be prevented?

That God is infinitely just , merciful ,loving, kind yet the minimal cost of eternal damnation is one (1) mortal sin. Which means that many people will go to hell*.

A false interpretation of Catholic teaching.

Jesus’ Gospel, good news to these people is: suck it up, you will win in the next life. Hardly a gift.

It’s hardly a gift to be annihilated…

But i understand you read somewhere that existence is God’s great gift to all of us, and seeing how such is not the case creates a cognitive dissonnance, then you turn around, block your ears, call someone “discourteous” and twist the meaning of the poor word “gift” to the point where it is unrecognizable, all that in an attempt to solve the cognitive dissonnance.

Cognitive dissonance is superbly displayed in disparaging the gift of life - without which you would be incapable of disparaging anything. If existence is so abominable the logical solution is to put an end to it as swiftly as possible - but then there would be no further opportunity to indulge in diatribes against it!

*You lack good faith, hence you will minimize hell by saying hogwash like “people choose to go there, even if they don’t believe in it(sic)”, “people choose to exclude themselves from the eternal banquet/feast”, “people want to be in hell”, “hell is a choice whether you believe in it or not” How can you choose something you’re not even aware of exists?!? Hell is the only real problem with existence, otherwise I come from the earth and i return to the earth, and at most I will have lived the life of a subhuman for 80 years. But hell is like God multiplying my life and the disarray, despair and stagnation i’ve known times 1 hundred billion trillion years. Very gracious.

Hell has its compensations - and begins in this life. It is a fool’s paradise because anyone who rejects God is doomed to self-inflicted isolation. Total independence is a source of great pleasure and satisfaction but it leads to frustration and irritation because pride and ambition are never satisfied and contain the seeds of self-destruction. To worship ourselves is a recipe for disaster because our imperfection prevents us from being content unless we are liberated by love for others and for God:

“Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in Thee” - St Augustine

 

[nownzen]

How could all the causes of misery and unhappiness be prevented?

What is the question? I’m saying I look around and I don,t need to look very hard to see misery, stagnation and frustration abound. I know you probably think the christian life is a panacea for all those people. The sort of integral self-denial and complete trust in God’s providence are things which are out of reach for most people. People want to live, thrive, love, be loved, in short, make the most of life, God stifles all that. God wants us resigned, which necessarily leads to frustration and a host of other problems.

A false interpretation of Catholic teaching.

Nope.

It’s hardly a gift to be annihilated…

It’s a gift if the only alternative is to be utterly miserable and hopeless.

Cognitive dissonance is superbly displayed in disparaging the gift of life - without which you would be incapable of disparaging anything. If existence is so abominable the logical solution is to put an end to it as swiftly as possible - but then there would be no further opportunity to indulge in diatribes against it!

Dogs have an internal program. They naturally bark when they sense danger, wag their tails when they’re happy, have a certain posture when they want to play. I said it ad nauseam, I have the exact same needs, desires, ambitions, Maslow’s pyramid type of thing as the most social, social magnet, smart, incredibly gifted guy who essentially breezes through life. Suicide, as you so magnanimously suggest, is tough for many reasons: God’s hell, the risk of botching your suicide which leaves you considerably worse off, just like a dog and its internal program, I’ve been programmed to want to live, even realizing I’m not made or cut out for life, going against the basic will to live is incredibly hard, a naive part of my self still clings to the hope that this raw deal of a life cannot be all there is to it, that there has to be a break for me somewhere. I have a great deal of baggage from the past, stuff that defines me, stuff too deep-seated to eradicate, the Christian life would just be adding an extra layer of burden on my already heavy load to carry. But I’ll look into your suggestion. Do you recommend Final Exit? God has made us to want happiness and union with him, but the price for his heaven is so heavy that it requires to go against all your nature screams for and and that you know would make you earthly journey that much more satisfying. I know money would solve a majority of my problems, with God I’d have to give up wantitng to be rich, he’d give me a love for poverty and lack. Christ seems to offer a gulag down here. He comes as a lepre, if you follow him, you’ll realize at the end of a terribly bleak and long road that he’s a glorious and wealthy prince.

Hell has its compensations - and begins in this life. It is a fool’s paradise because anyone who rejects God is doomed to self-inflicted isolation. Total independence is a source of great pleasure and satisfaction but it leads to frustration and irritation because pride and ambition are never satisfied and contain the seeds of self-destruction. To worship ourselves is a recipe for disaster because our imperfection prevents us from being content unless we are liberated by love for others and for God.

You’re right, every scripture passage about hell makes it abundantly clear that these people are actually satisified, not utterly but partially.

“Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in Thee” - St Augustine

You quoted the most exalted phrase attributed to Augustine. This makes it sound like you’re on a turbulent sea, you ship is about to sink, and up ahead you see a shimmering light, it’s the reflection of the sun on the scales of a beautiful mermaid on a tropical island where food abounds. You really think Augustine was never restless after he “found” God? He paints the Christian life as this great thing promising much on this earth.

 

[oldcelt]

Are you saying this moment is being created?
New creation as in new people?
Science, at this time at least, would assumes that nothing ever was, is or will be created.
I can’t wrap my head around Deism.
The idea of a god who is not love seems like something out of ancient Greece.

New stars, solar systems…god put the whole thing on automatic pilot after he started it. People are an evolutionary result and are not directly created by the deity…we are the result of our parent’s interaction.
Science remains largely uncertain of the very beginning of this universe. Deism credits that to god.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Are you saying this moment is being created?
New creation as in new people?
Science, at this time at least, would assumes that nothing ever was, is or will be created.
I can’t wrap my head around Deism.
The idea of a god who is not love seems like something out of ancient Greece.

As far as, “The idea of a god who is not love seems like something out of ancient Greece.”

Or one could read some of the “conceptions” of God that are written on some of these postings and see that this “idea”, (a god who is not love), is alive and well in the “modern” world.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Are you saying this moment is being created?
New creation as in new people?
Science, at this time at least, would assumes that nothing ever was, is or will be created.
I can’t wrap my head around Deism.
The idea of a god who is not love seems like something out of ancient Greece.

I think of “creation” as an ongoing thing.

Jesus, HImself, said that His Father has been busy even until now.

It is written that God blest, rested and made holy the seventh day.

Seems to me that Jesus told us that we are in the sixth day and have been in the sixth day for quite a while.

Do you think that creation is static, dynamic or over with?

 

[tonyrey]

How could all the causes of misery and unhappiness be prevented?

That notion of God is puritannical and it fails to answer the question:** How** could all the causes of misery and unhappiness be prevented?

A false interpretation of Catholic teaching.

Nope.

You’ve just confirmed it!

It’s hardly a gift to be annihilated…

It’s a gift if the only alternative is to be utterly miserable and hopeless.

And an unreasonable pessimist who believes death is the grand finale…

Cognitive dissonance

is superbly displayed in disparaging the gift of life - without which you would be incapable of disparaging anything. If existence is so abominable the logical solution is to put an end to it as swiftly as possible - but then there would be no further opportunity to indulge in diatribes against it!
Dogs have an internal program. They naturally bark when they sense danger, wag their tails when they’re happy, have a certain posture when they want to play. I said it ad nauseam, I have the exact same needs, desires, ambitions, Maslow’s pyramid type of thing as the most social, social magnet, smart, incredibly gifted guy who essentially breezes through life. Suicide, as you so magnanimously suggest, is tough for many reasons: God’s hell, the risk of botching your suicide which leaves you considerably worse off, just like a dog and its internal program, I’ve been programmed to want to live, even realizing I’m not made or cut out for life, going against the basic will to live is incredibly hard, a naive part of my self still clings to the hope that this raw deal of a life cannot be all there is to it, that there has to be a break for me somewhere. I have a great deal of baggage from the past, stuff that defines me, stuff too deep-seated to eradicate, the Christian life would just be adding an extra layer of burden on my already heavy load to carry. But I’ll look into your suggestion. Do you recommend Final Exit? God has made us to want happiness and union with him, but the price for his heaven is so heavy that it requires to go against all your nature screams for and and that you know would make you earthly journey that much more satisfying. I know money would solve a majority of my problems, with God I’d have to give up wantitng to be rich, he’d give me a love for poverty and lack. Christ seems to offer a gulag down here. He comes as a lepre, if you follow him, you’ll realize at the end of a terribly bleak and long road that he’s a glorious and wealthy prince.

Rich people complain because they think money can buy everything but they are sadly mistaken.

Hell has its compensations - and begins in this life. It is a fool’s paradise because anyone who rejects God is doomed to self-inflicted isolation. Total independence is a source of great pleasure and satisfaction but it leads to frustration and irritation because pride and ambition are never satisfied and contain the seeds of self-destruction. To worship ourselves is a recipe for disaster because our imperfection prevents us from being content unless we are liberated by love for others and for God.

You’re right, every scripture passage about hell makes it abundantly clear that these people are actually satisified, not utterly but partially.

In other words they are getting what they deserve.

“Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in Thee” - St Augustine

 You quoted the most exalted phrase attributed to Augustine. This  makes it sound like you're on a turbulent sea, you ship is about to  sink, and up ahead you see a shimmering light, it's the reflection of  the sun on the scales of a beautiful mermaid on a tropical island where  food abounds. You really think Augustine was never restless after he  "found" God? He paints the Christian life as this great thing promising  much on this earth.

It does if we appreciate what we have. Heaven and hell begin in this world according to whether we are positive or negative.

 

[Aloysium]

I think of “creation” as an ongoing thing.

Jesus, HImself, said that His Father has been busy even until now.

It is written that God blest, rested and made holy the seventh day.

Seems to me that Jesus told us that we are in the sixth day and have been in the sixth day for quite a while.

Do you think that creation is static, dynamic or over with?

Depends what you mean by creation. The other thing is time. Since every moment is created by God, in His eternal vision, it is all new.

He rested on the seventh day. From what I recall, there’s nothing to say it couldn’t be in the future. I have not read where Jesus says we were in the sixth day. Most people think that the days we are in and those before us, followed the seventh day. Once man entered the picture, or I should say, after we were banished from Eden, the definition of a day became what constitutes a day for us now.

In the first “six days”, from a base that was heaven, earth, light and darkness, there was an adding and layering of new creation on what had been created.
This stopped. The the birth of Jesus is not a new creation but a revelation of what happened eternally at the foundations of the earth.
Now from where I stand in history, there are many new people that will come into existence after I depart this world.
And then there will be the resurrection, that could be different - a new Jerusalem. I believe that this would not be a new creation on top of what already now exists, and is called heaven, where Christ is.

In short, God being the eternal Cause of all that is, brings the universe including all time, into existence through an act of creation that includes the stepwise fashion that is revealed to have occurred at the beginning.

That’s how I understand it.

 

[tonyrey]

The OP is based on the false assumption that Creation was a once-for-all affair that ended in the past whereas it is a continuous process of sustained development in which His creatures participate. A more realistic question is:

Are we helping God to create the best possible world?

 

[clem456]

The OP is based on the false assumption that Creation was a once-for-all affair that ended in the past whereas it is a continuous process of sustained development in which His creatures participate. A more realistic question is:

Are we helping God to create the best possible world?

The catechism speaks of creation as one act, and the journey toward perfection as another. It seems to speak of creation as a definitive act of God. The discussion of the act of creation is always referred to in the past tense, as far as I can tell.

God upholds and sustains creation.
301 With creation, God does not abandon his creatures to themselves. He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence:

For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.160
V. GOD CARRIES OUT HIS PLAN: DIVINE PROVIDENCE

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

306 God is the sovereign master of his plan. But to carry it out he also makes use of his creatures’ co-operation. This use is not a sign of weakness, but rather a token of almighty God’s greatness and goodness. For God grants his creatures not only their existence, but also the dignity of acting on their own, of being causes and principles for each other, and thus of co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan.

314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God “face to face”,184 will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth.

 

[Aloysium]

The catechism speaks of creation as one act, and the journey toward perfection as another. It seems to speak of creation as a definitive act of God. The discussion of the act of creation is always referred to in the past tense, as far as I can tell.

Where “creation” refers to the beginning, it refers to the past.

We can also say that it is through an ongoing creative process that God maintains the universe in being, and that it is how “at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end”. We also see new people coming into this world. They were not created at the beginning. That “the universe was created ‘in a state of journeying’ (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection” can be understood as the creation in time of perfection. That perfection is brought about by the sacrifice of the Lamb, but we must participate in that final achievement. It depends on how one uses the word, the context will tell.

I am not the person to ask about this, but I believe St. Thomas addressed the issue:
He says that God is in all things and He preserves the being of things immediately. “An effect is preserved by its proper cause on which it depends. Now just as no effect can be its own cause, but can only produce another effect, so no effect can be endowed with the power of self-preservation, but only with the power of preserving another.” I take this to support the idea that God can be said to create the universe in all time.

 

[tonyrey]

The catechism speaks of creation as one act, and the journey toward perfection as another. It seems to speak of creation as a definitive act of God. The discussion of the act of creation is always referred to in the past tense, as far as I can tell.

Creation occurred in the past **from our point of view **but God transcends time. I never tire of quoting “In Him we live, move and have our being” because it sums up divine activity perfectly.

Your reference to His creatures “co-operating in the accomplishment of his plan” is consistent with my question:

"Are we helping God to create the best possible world? " (Present tense!)

 

[tonysonlyfriend]

That notion of God is puritannical and it fails to answer the question:** How** could all the causes of misery and unhappiness be prevented?

If God had chosen to truly make us in his image, especially in his inability to sin or to do evil. Keeping Satan from Eden would have helped tremendously if God had indeed chosen to not make us in his image and to give us the ability to sin. In addition to the Tree, God placing Satan indicates that he had a desired result in mind: the fall of man. God is sovereign and as such he could have very well been buring with desire to see the fall of man, knowing his son would redeem humankind. To anyone with two weak brain cells to rub together, it’s amply evident that the Lord rules the show, that it’s a one-man show. In other words, we’re God’s servants and we can take no pride in being good servants because servants are meant to serve.

And an unreasonable pessimist who believes death is the grand finale…

I think he makes it amply clear that he believes in hell and that he also believes death is not the finale. I suggest working on your reading skills. You’re an unreasonable ostrich.

Rich people complain because they think money can buy everything but they are sadly mistaken.

Makes no sense. Money can indeed buy lots of things:security, peace of mind, it opens doors left and right, it opens the door to most dreams etc. He never said anything about money making him happy, though, he simply said it would solve a majority of his problems.

In other words they are getting what they deserve.

Charity is the cardinal virtue. Self-righteous, pompous, holier-than-thou people like you are not an asset to this world. You have the appearance of piety, but not the substance. I assume God, as I, is not fooled.

It does if we appreciate what we have. Heaven and hell begin in this world according to whether we are positive or negative.

Two-bit psychology.

 

[tonyrey]

If God had chosen to truly make us in his image, especially in his inability to sin or to do evil. Keeping Satan from Eden would have helped tremendously if God had indeed chosen to not make us in his image and to give us the ability to sin. In addition to the Tree, God placing Satan indicates that he had a desired result in mind: the fall of man. God is sovereign and as such he could have very well been buring with desire to see the fall of man, knowing his son would redeem humankind. To anyone with two weak brain cells to rub together, it’s amply evident that the Lord rules the show, that it’s a one-man show. In other words, we’re God’s servants and we can take no pride in being good servants because servants are meant to serve.

I think he makes it amply clear that he believes in hell and that he also believes death is not the finale. I suggest working on your reading skills. You’re an unreasonable ostrich.

Makes no sense. Money can indeed buy lots of things:security, peace of mind, it opens doors left and right, it opens the door to most dreams etc. He never said anything about money making him happy, though, he simply said it would solve a majority of his problems.

Charity is the cardinal virtue. Self-righteous, pompous, holier-than-thou people like you are not an asset to this world. You have the appearance of piety, but not the substance. I assume God, as I, is not fooled.

Two-bit psychology.

nowzen is not very subtle in his insulting use of my name on the same thread as a sequel to the posts he wrote belittling God before he was banned…

 

[tonyrey]

nowzen is not very subtle in his insulting use of my name on the same thread as a sequel to the posts he wrote belittling God before he was banned…

Correction:

nownzen is not very subtle in his insulting use of my name on the same thread as a sequel to the posts he wrote belittling God before he was banned…

 

[tonysonlyfriend]

Correction:

nownzen is not very subtle in his insulting use of my name on the same thread as a sequel to the posts he wrote belittling God before he was banned…

Ideas, tony, tackle ideas. No need to use the 3rd tense, be a man and use “you”. Besides, this has nothing to do with the topic, a PM or a friend request p) would have been more suitable to vent your indignation.

Gotta go. Off to see the apologist’s answer to the question: “Is wearing spandex for sports a mortal sin?” In other words: if i wear spandex, do i freely and consciously reject God, do i freely choose hell, do i deserve eternal misery and anguish? Such a freeing religion.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Off to see the apologist’s answer to the question: “Is wearing spandex for sports a mortal sin?” . . . .

My wife alway said she found me attractive. Sharing a similar morphology, Puffin was her pet name for me. “You are my Puffin.” “I love you, Puffin.” I think you get the picture. I remember one time, early on, she asked me if I loved her. I was quick in my response, a brief but concise summary of philia, eros and agape, building up to a crescendo, “Love is an action; words are insufficient.” She reacted as any normal person would, her facial muscles twitching between expressions of surprise, disappointment, bewilderment and fear, probably related to concerns that she had married some form of artificial alien life. “Try.” was the response to all my efforts. However, a quick learner, from then on I would even anticipate the question, with a quiet rendition, a la Joe Cocker of “You are so Beautiful”. Would that I could hold her in my arms again.

Did I digress? We were talking about spandex.

Now if you can imagine a puffin in spandex. But, I am not a puffin and I believe doing so might constitute a crime against humanity. Not wishing to visit the Hague under such circumstances, I believe I would decline the temptation.

 

[tonyrey]

Ironically the horrific reality of evil is overwhelming evidence that God is creating the best possible universe. It demonstrates that without love there is no limit to the atrocities that are committed on this planet. Corruptio optima pessima.

 

[Achilles6129]

The OP is based on the false assumption that Creation was a once-for-all affair that ended in the past whereas it is a continuous process of sustained development in which His creatures participate. A more realistic question is:

Are we helping God to create the best possible world?

Obviously God knows what those creatures will do and ultimately allows them to do it. So God is, ultimately, responsible for their actions.

 

[Tomdstone]

Obviously God knows what those creatures will do and ultimately allows them to do it. So God is, ultimately, responsible for their actions.

That seems to be a dangerous and warped idea - making God ultimately responsible for much of the evil in the world.

 

[clem456]

Obviously God knows what those creatures will do and ultimately allows them to do it. So God is, ultimately, responsible for their actions.

God is responsible for our actions? What about free will?