Did God Create the Best Possible Universe?

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oldcelt said:
What about creation with foreknowledge?
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There is no such thing as foreknowledge where God is concerned. He transcends time and space - and knows everything.

Does knowing what you are going to do imply that you **are compelled **to do it? Of course not. He knows you are compelling yourself to do it if you are using your free will. Otherwise He knows what is causing you to act in that way.
 
In keeping with Jewish thought on the matter, I believe G-d created the best possible universe by making it imperfect. In this way, mankind can use its free will for good purposes by patching up the holes in the universe.
 
tonyrey said:
There is no such thing as foreknowledge where God is concerned. He transcends time and space - and knows everything…
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But God the Son does not know the day or hour, although God the Father does.
 
Tomdstone said:
That seems to be a dangerous and warped idea - making God ultimately responsible for much of the evil in the world.
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There is a vast difference between ultimate and direct responsibility. Do you believe we shouldn’t have children because of the crimes they or their descendants will commit? :confused:
 
tonyrey said:
There is a vast difference between ultimate and direct responsibility. Do you believe we shouldn’t have children because of the crimes they or their descendants will commit? :confused:
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It would solve the problem of human evil, wouldn’t it?
 
oldcelt said:
There is a vast difference between ultimate and direct responsibility. Do you believe we shouldn’t have children because of the crimes they or their descendants will commit?
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So you advocate the extinction of humanity as soon as possible? You probably agree with Schopenhauer that it would be far better if life had never existed on this planet - which doesn’t say much for the deist God. Either He is a sadist or an ignoramus.
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meltzerboy said:
In keeping with Jewish thought on the matter, I believe G-d created the best possible universe by making it imperfect. In this way, mankind can use its free will for good purposes by patching up the holes in the universe.
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It seems more credible that the Creator permits rather wills imperfection. Would He deliberately inflict incurable diseases and deformities on His creatures?
 
tonyrey said:
So you advocate the extinction of humanity as soon as possible? You probably agree with Schopenhauer that it would be far better if life had never existed on this planet - which doesn’t say much for the deist God. Either He is a sadist or an ignoramus.
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My Tony, you really are threatened by Deist thought, aren’t you? However, I think it is very much against the forum rules to call anyone names…even God.

BTW, I do not agree with Schopenhauer.
 
tonyrey said:
There is no such thing as foreknowledge where God is concerned. He transcends time and space - and knows everything.

Does knowing what you are going to do imply that you **are compelled **to do it? Of course not. He knows you are compelling yourself to do it if you are using your free will. Otherwise He knows what is causing you to act in that way.
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Doubletalk
 
oldcelt said:
So you advocate the extinction of humanity as soon as possible? You probably agree with Schopenhauer that it would be far better if life had never existed on this planet - which doesn’t say much for the deist God. Either He is a sadist or an ignoramus.
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An argumentum ad hominem which evades the issue.
However, I think it is very much against the forum rules to call anyone names…even God.
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It is not name-calling but **a statement of fact **that a person who advocates not having children as a solution to the problem of evil must regard the Creator as a sadist or an ignoramus for having inflicted so much apparently needless suffering on His unfortunate victims.
BTW, I do not agree with Schopenhauer.
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Your solution to the problem of evil is consistent with his view that that it would be far better if life had never existed on this planet…
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tonyrey said:
An argumentum ad hominem which evades the issue.
It is not name-calling but **a statement of fact **that a person who advocates not having children as a solution to the problem of evil must regard the Creator as a sadist or an ignoramus for having inflicted so much apparently needless suffering on His unfortunate victims.

Your solution to the problem of evil is consistent with his view that that it would be far better if life had never existed on this planet…
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No Tony, you called my God an ignoramus and so on. The question of reproduction is defiantly open for discussion.

Actually come back without the vitriol…and please check ad hominem…I never attacked you.
 
tonyrey said:
…must regard the Creator as a sadist or an ignoramus…
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But if we define the creator as good, then maybe it is actually good to be a sadist or an ignoramus. By such allegations we may actually be praising God.
 
tonyrey said:
There is no such thing as foreknowledge where God is concerned. He transcends time and space - and knows everything.

Does knowing what you are going to do imply that you **are compelled **to do it? Of course not. He knows you are compelling yourself to do it if you are using your free will. Otherwise He knows what is causing you to act in that way.
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Here is the problem: in what (metaphysical, not temporal) order do the following things occur?

God’s knowledge of his creation
God’s creation of his creation
Creation’s exercise of free will

Now, consider if the metaphysical order is:
God knows → God creates → creation exercises free will
Then the “God has foreknowledge” objection is valid in a sense.

The order
God creates → God knows → creation exercises free will
Doesn’t make much sense because how could God create something without knowing what he was creating? How can he know the outcome of an event that hasn’t (metaphysically) happen yet

The order
God knows → creation exercises free will → God creates
Doesn’t make much sense because how can we exercise free will before being created?

The order
God creates → creation exercises free will → God knows
Makes the most sense, but again, how can God create if he doesn’t know what he is creating?
 
tonyrey said:
The Son chose to become like us in all things but sin - which implies that His knowledge was limited **as a man ** while remaining infinite as God. That is hardly a problem for the Creator of the entire universe.
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Do you then say that what Jesus the man knows is not the same as what Jesus as God knows? Does that mean that Jesus has two minds?
 
tonyrey said:
It seems more credible that the Creator permits rather wills imperfection. Would He deliberately inflict incurable diseases and deformities on His creatures?
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Well, he does that in Scripture doesn’t he?
 
JapaneseKappa said:
But if we define the creator as good, then maybe it is actually good to be a sadist or an ignoramus. By such allegations we may actually be praising God.
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But the definition of “good” excludes sadism or ignorance. So God could be a sadist or ignoramus by your definition (or someone else’s) but not in reality. God could be defined as an evil monster by someone’s definition but not actually be one in reality. Perceptions of good/evil are totally different and, quite frankly, irrelevant. We can reason quite easily that the Creator must possess the true knowledge of good/evil and thus know the true definitions of good/evil (since he’s intelligent enough to create the universe). So in this case someone else’s perceptions of good/evil would simply be wrong.
 
Achilles6129 said:
But the definition of “good” excludes sadism or ignorance. So God could be a sadist or ignoramus by your definition (or someone else’s) but not in reality. God could be defined as an evil monster by someone’s definition but not actually be one in reality. Perceptions of good/evil are totally different and, quite frankly, irrelevant. We can reason quite easily that the Creator must possess the true knowledge of good/evil and thus know the true definitions of good/evil (since he’s intelligent enough to create the universe). So in this case someone else’s perceptions of good/evil would simply be wrong.
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Correct. Your perceptions of sadism and ignorance can be wrong. They could actually be good traits according to God.
 
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