Did God Create the Best Possible Universe?

[Aloysium]

Can you refer to any authentic Church documents or references? The Catholic Encyclopedia indicates that God knows all possibilities as well as what will happen.

It seems to me that what you are saying DOES contradict the Catholic Encyclopedia:

To say that God can’t know what people will do before He creates them would seem to make them “dependent on creatures for knowledge of created objects.” And again, this says that He knows creatures and the acts, both what is actual and merely possible. o say that God can’t know what people will do before He creates them would seem to make them “dependent on creatures for knowledge of created objects.” And again, this says that He knows creatures and the acts, both what is actual and merely possible.

Anyway, this is something of a moot point, as this tangent started with a defense against God allowing a soul to go to hell based on the idea that He can’t know what a person will do until he decides to create them. I feel this argument is flawed on two points:

1. God has infinite knowledge and does not need to do something before knowing what will happen as a result.
2. God would not be committing an injustice by creating person whom He know would ultimately reject Him.

I did not say, and never would say, “. . . God can’t know what people will do before He creates them . . .” It is not true. God knows us before He creates us because He exists outside of time. Having created a person within his time and place, God knows everything about him. Consider that God creates and is in all moments. Omniscience therefore includes the person’s entire life. It is that totality, that unity, from God’s perspective, that is created.

Those of us who choose to follow Satan, are known to do so by God. He cannot uncreate us because of what we have chosen. We are beings with free will. He creates us, and our individual life is the reality of our choices.

He knows what is possible and that is why we were redeemed “with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world . . .”

He knows and understands the circumstance which each of us encounter and what we need to exercise our free will, that we might thereby turn to Him - hence the warnings to Cain and the Jews who denied Jesus, John and the prophets.
Cain made a rational decision to kill his brother. Had he not been warned he would have killed him anyway but without full full knowledge of what he was doing. The warning offered him the choice of acting in accordance with God’s will; he could have chosen to love his brother.
As to the warning to Chorazin and Bethsaida (Matt 11), that it would be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on judgement day. I understand it to be similar to what was said to Cain. What was revealed to them far surpassed what was given to Caananites and more was expected of them; their judgement would be more severe. God is aware of what is at stake and grants us the possibility of choosing Him.

I’m just an idiot on the internet; consider: yadvashem.org/yv/en/about/events/pope/francis/speech.asp

. . . The Father knew the risk of freedom; he knew that his children could be lost… yet perhaps not even the Father could imagine so great a fall, so profound an abyss! Here, before the boundless tragedy of the Holocaust, That cry – “Where are you?” – echoes like a faint voice in an unfathomable abyss… Adam, who are you? I no longer recognize you. Who are you, o man? What have you become? Of what horror have you been capable? What made you fall to such depths? Certainly it is not the dust of the earth from which you were made. The dust of the earth is something good, the work of my hands. Certainly it is not the breath of life which I breathed into you. That breath comes from me, and it is something good . . .

He gave us free will. We choose whom we become.

 

[oldcelt]

I did not say, and never would say, “. . . God can’t know what people will do before He creates them . . .” It is not true. God knows us before He creates us because He exists outside of time. Having created a person within his time and place, God knows everything about him. Consider that God creates and is in all moments. Omniscience therefore includes the person’s entire life. It is that totality, that unity, from God’s perspective, that is created.

Those of us who choose to follow Satan, are known to do so by God. He cannot uncreate us because of what we have chosen. We are beings with free will. He creates us, and our individual life is the reality of our choices.

He knows what is possible and that is why we were redeemed “with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world . . .”

He knows and understands the circumstance which each of us encounter and what we need to exercise our free will, that we might thereby turn to Him - hence the warnings to Cain and the Jews who denied Jesus, John and the prophets.
Cain made a rational decision to kill his brother. Had he not been warned he would have killed him anyway but without full full knowledge of what he was doing. The warning offered him the choice of acting in accordance with God’s will; he could have chosen to love his brother.
As to the warning to Chorazin and Bethsaida (Matt 11), that it would be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on judgement day. I understand it to be similar to what was said to Cain. What was revealed to them far surpassed what was given to Caananites and more was expected of them; their judgement would be more severe. God is aware of what is at stake and grants us the possibility of choosing Him.

I’m just an idiot on the internet; consider: yadvashem.org/yv/en/about/events/pope/francis/speech.asp

He gave us free will. We choose whom we become.

Under the system you propose free will cannot exist. Problem one…none of us were asked if we wanted to be created…that is the biggest choice of all.

 

[tonyrey]

1. Omniscience is unlimited in scope.

Omniscience is unlimited within the context of reality. It is impossible, for example, to have knowledge of nothing - or to know what nothing will do.

1. We can think of a better universe than we have now, not necessarily the best possible. For example, why would it not be better if people were not born with a disordered condition?

An earthly Utopia is a fantasy which does not correspond to the limitations of earthly existence. It would mean defeating the purpose of creating an orderly system. The laws of nature cannot cater for every contingency because they are not infallible. There are bound to be unfortunate coincidences in an immensely complex physical universe:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good.** Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures:** and above all to the question of moral evil.

 

[tonyrey]

Under the system you propose free will cannot exist. Problem one…none of us were asked if we wanted to be created…that is the biggest choice of all.

How can persons who don’t exist be asked whether they want to be created? :ehh:

 

[tonyrey]

Talking in circles does not make it so.

God is either Omniscient or God isn’t.

om-nis-cient

1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
2. an omniscient being.
3. the Omniscient, God.

It may be beyond us to “understand” Omniscience, but it is not beyond us to understand the meaning of the word “Omniscience”.

We think we understand the meaning but we do not know the full extent of what is knowable. For example, is the nature of nothing knowable? Is the activity of nothing knowable?

As far as, “To God there is no before or after.”

Since time was created by God and in time there is a before and after, I would say that God knows something about before and after concerning “events” in God’s creation or there is not God, it is that simple.

1. Are truth, goodness, freedom, beauty and love “events” in God’s creation?
2. Is there “a before and after” in the creation of beings made in the image of God?
3. Does time exist in the spiritual world?

 

[clem456]

Under the system you propose free will cannot exist. Problem one…none of us were asked if we wanted to be created…that is the biggest choice of all.

God creates out of nothing. There was a time when you and I did not exist, now we exist. When we did not exist, we were not consulted as to whether we choose to exist. We were simply created.
God gives fully, giving his creatures a free will that will run afoul of his own and reject him. Think of that…we reject God, and he knows we will reject him, but he creates us anyway, and calls us to move toward him.

Similar to a marriage, when the couples commit to “better or worse”. This is an admission by the couple. They admit that hardship and rejection will be part of love. Yet we marry anyway, because we commit to love.
It is not accidental that God gives us marriage to reflect the image of his love for us.

 

[oldcelt]

How can persons who don’t exist be asked whether they want to be created? :ehh:

To an infinite, omniscient being, who is credited with our creation, our possibility would always exist. In a sense, we are infinite under that god. The only question is when (in time) we make our entrance, completely without our consent. We are slaves from the beginning to that god’s will.

 

[clem456]

To an infinite, omniscient being, who is credited with our creation, our possibility would always exist. In a sense, we are infinite under that god. The only question is when (in time) we make our entrance, completely without our consent. We are slaves from the beginning to that god’s will.

Slaves?
Love should never enslave a person. Starting from the dire assumption of slavery, it is a fairly straight line to “no man should be born”.
Existence is a gift.

 

[Cimachol]

He gave us free will. We choose whom we become.

I’m not arguing against free will. What I was initially responding to was an argument that God couldn’t decide whether or not to create a person based on what that person would choose because (according to the person making the argument) God can’t know what we will do until He creates us. As I understand it from the Catholic Encyclopedia, He does know. Presumably, an all-powerful God who knows what His creation will do would have the power to decide NOT to create that individual.

I’m inclined not to take Pope Francis’ statement that “perhaps not even the Father could imagine so great a fall, so profound an abyss” as a literal, doctrinal statement, but more as a way of making a point about how God felt about Man’s fall when it actually came to pass.

BTW, I also disagree with those who are trying to say that God is less than perfect because He created individuals who may end up going to Hell for eternity. As has been said already in this thread, creation is a gift, and salvation is open to all. That some individuals will choose an existence without God does not make God unjust. I just think that it’s important not to paint God as less than He really is to offer an explanation for Hell.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I do believe God is Omniscient but I don’t believe the decisions of non-existent persons are knowable. Omniscience does not entail absurdity. You need to refute the argument I have presented if your objection is to be credible.

I said that if God is Omniscient than God would know everything about everyone that God would ever create, I NEVER said anything about God knowing everything about someone that God would never create.

You are the one who brought up the idea of “non-existent persons”, not me and as far as I know no one else except for you.

I agree that it is an absurdity to say that God would know the decisions of someone that would never be created but it is you who seem to have come up with the idea to begin with because it sure was not me.

Do you believe that God would know everything about everyone that He was going to create even before God created them?

It seems to me that the very simple definition of Omnscience is ALL-KNOWING.

If God is Omniscient than God would know everything, if God knew less than everything than God would not be Omniscient.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Presumably, an all-powerful God who knows what His creation will do would have the power to decide NOT to create that individual. . .

Although we agree in other ways, I’m still on this track.

I think this is an impossibility given the nature of free will.
We are free to choose and in our choices we reveal who we wish to be.
It is not the other way around that who we are dictates our choices.
With respect to love, goodness and evil it is we who transform ourselves into that person.
Clearly God could have made all this the other way around, but we would not be capable of loving, just going through the motions.

Again, God knows a person when He creates him. At that point He cannot then uncreate them, since they exist in eternity.
As Tony says, He cannot know the choices that never-to-be-created persons will make.
This isn’t like writing code and redoing it if it fails. Or running a simulation through a super mind and writing it down only if it works.
The choices are ours and ours alone; and God knows what we will do, because He has created us and knows us.

You are created, Oldcelt is created, I’m created. There exists no possibility that we would not be here, regardless of the choices we make.
We had no choice in the decision to be here or not; our choice, as was suggested, is in choosing our master. We can remain under Pharaoh or follow Moses and God’s commandments through the desert.
It is our choice - one Master will take us to the promised land; the other, well, it’s not milk and honey.

 

[Cimachol]

Again, God knows a person when He creates him. At that point He cannot then uncreate them, since they exist in eternity.

So you believe that God’s knowledge is limited to actions He’s already taken, such as creating an individual. This would seem to make Him dependent upon human beings for knowledge, which is exactly what the Catholic Encyclopedia speaks out against. I believe He is omniscient, as the Catholic Encyclopedia says, and that He knows what will happen as well as what could happen, as the Catholic Encyclopedia also states. Further, I believe He is omnipotent and has the ability to make decisions based on His infinite, including deciding whether or not to create based on what will happen as a result of that creation.

I guess we just disagree.

 

[nownzen]

I must say first that more often than not i find myself sharing oldcelt’s sentiments. I think we need to be humble and understand that htere is basically very little we can know for certain about God. Does God actively call someone into existence or does he simply add a soul whenever procreation occurs? Did he decree that nownzen was going to be created or did he simply know that i was going to be created at a given instant, so my parent’s procreative act made me appear on God’s mind, as it were. I exist because my parents had sex and i was a product of that act, since God has known for (time marker, i know) all eternity* that my parents were going to create me, then I’ve been on his mind for ever. I assume God did not actively will me into existence, but humans, it seems, seem to be the main authors in the book about creation that God has. If my father had decided to get drunk the night i was conceived, then nownzen would not be here, Cecilia might have been created, instead of me, days later. Now if my father gets drunk on the night I was conceived, does God know nownzen was going to be conceived had he opted for sobriety? Moreover, does God know what nownzen would have been like had my father chosen alcohol, does he know how I would have responded to his graces had I been created? The more i think about it, the more i’m inclined to think he does not. It opens up billions upon billions of scenarios, all ficticious. God probably can only work with what is. The information pertaining to human life on God’s mind is what has been “sent”, written by humans.** Do I make any sense? The idea in my mind is pretty clear but expressing it proves very challenging. God knows I will go to hell, but he is rendered helpless to do anything about it.

Also, some people here, and elsewhere, seem to operate with the pre conceived idea that humans are generally more or less equal in how they respond to God, how they deal with evil etc. There is, in my estimation, a very wide range in the way people are attracted to sin (evil), are able to resist it, want to resist it, view God etc. There is young man tried for triple murder in the US, the guy has horn implants on his forehead, “666” tatooed in between the tips of the horns, I refuse to believe that only free-will led him there. Because of Original sin, whose affects differ widely from one person to the next, some are born, it seems, with evil urges which their non existent conscience seems unable to keep in check. Others are born compassionate, civil, forgiving, loving God and neighbour. Some seem to have inherited death, darkness, hatred and anger at birth. Can the pull of sin be stronger in certain individuals than in others, can the will and the desire to fight sin be virtually impossible to muster in some folks? I hear of God’s justice but it can only go so far.

At the end of everyone’s life awaits heaven or hell, both eternal. Life cannot be said to be a “gift” until your rear-end is in heaven, i think. I moan and groan, I fight a great deal of despair, there are many holes in my personality, I carry a great deal of baggage, but as much as i hate to admit, if God lets me in his kingdom, life, as crushing as it has been for me at times, will seem like an unsignificant inconvenience. if on the contrary I end up eternally in the presence of brother Satan, then God vicariously giving me life through my parents will have been a tragedy beyond words, an un-gift, the anti-thesis of a gift. ADHD often makes one wordy, in case you wonder.

When all is said and done, the only real problem is hell. I just can’t reconcile goodness with an eternal hell, I’m sure God had other options. Milder, less harsh, less “cruel” (I don’t think God takes pleasure in the loss of souls, but he will however sustain those souls for ever and ever for them to experience unceasing despair, regret, remorse, terror, hatred, agony of the spirit and all manners of pain and misery). “And the smoke of their torment will rise night and day for ever and ever”. I’m seduced by annihilation, it seems to solve eevry problem and no one could accuse God of being a vengeful tyrant anymore.

*I’m billions of years old virtually, and I’m in reality 40 something.

**God is reading a book in 1900 about what will happen in the year 2000, but the book he’s reading contains only information provided by the people living in the year 2000. He doesn’t run the show. People’s lives are a combination of chance, luck, habit, free-will, the effects of others’ free-will (good or bad), gifts, talents, mental health, resiliency.

 

[oldcelt]

Slaves?
Love should never enslave a person. Starting from the dire assumption of slavery, it is a fairly straight line to “no man should be born”.
Existence is a gift.

To you perhaps, but how many would reject existence if given the chance to exercise true free will?

 

[clem456]

To you perhaps, but how many would reject existence if given the chance to exercise true free will?

Isn’t that somewhat of a non sequitur?
Before a person can choose to reject anything, they must first have the gift of existence and free will. The gift precedes anything else. God is that gift, before all else. Given that gift, we are then “free” to toss it in the trash or stomp our feet and ask for something better.
Eh?

 

[tonyrey]

I said that if God is Omniscient than God would know everything about everyone that God would ever create, I NEVER said anything about God knowing everything about someone that God would never create.

You are the one who brought up the idea of “non-existent persons”, not me and as far as I know no one else except for you.

I agree that it is an absurdity to say that God would know the decisions of someone that would never be created but it is you who seem to have come up with the idea to begin with because it sure was not me.

Do you believe that God would know everything about everyone that He was going to create even before God created them?

It seems to me that the very simple definition of Omnscience is ALL-KNOWING.

If God is Omniscient than God would know everything, if God knew less than everything than God would not be Omniscient.

Unfortunately you insist on putting God into time and space even though He exists and acts timelessly and spacelessly:

“In Him we live, move and have our being”.

 

[oldcelt]

Isn’t that somewhat of a non sequitur?
Before a person can choose to reject anything, they must first have the gift of existence and free will. The gift precedes anything else. God is that gift, before all else. Given that gift, we are then “free” to toss it in the trash or stomp our feet and ask for something better.
Eh?

An omnipotent god could certainly get around that…If he chose to. he Christian god did not. Under his system we are forced into an existence where he already knows the outcome. A great many people, I believe, don’t like to play a fixed game.

Of course, as a Deist, I don’t believe any of it. My life is the result of a physical act between two humans, preordained by no one.

 

[Tomdstone]

Unfortunately you insist on putting God into time and space even though He exists and acts timelessly and spacelessly:

“In Him we live, move and have our being”.

Jesus is God from God, true God from true God and yet He existed in time and space for roughly 32 years.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Unfortunately you insist on putting God into time and space even though He exists and acts timelessly and spacelessly:

“In Him we live, move and have our being”.

Are you saying that God never appeared to OT Moses in the “burning bush”?

Are you saying that God never became One of us in the Incarnation?

Are you saying that Catholicism/Christianity is a lie since without God becoming One of us, Catholicism/Christianity simply does not exist?

Are you saying that Paul, who used to be called Saul, wrote lies about his encounter with Jesus?

Are you saying that ALL of the people in both the OT and the NT that said anything about an encounter with God were ALL LIARS?

According to the Catholic Church and according to what is written in the bible, God has done very much in “time and space” besides just creating both of them.

As far as your quote, ““In Him we live, move and have our being””, are you saying that we live and move and have our being “timelessly and spacelessly” since to be “In Him”, we would have to be somewhere that is “timelessly and spacelessly” since that is where you say that God “exists and acts” and that God seemingly never does anything in “time and space”?

I happen to disagree with you.

I happen to believe that God is a very Personable God and that many people have had some type of “Personable” encounter with God.

 

[nownzen]

An omnipotent god could certainly get around that…If he chose to. he Christian god did not. Under his system we are forced into an existence where he already knows the outcome. A great many people, I believe, don’t like to play a fixed game.

Of course, as a Deist, I don’t believe any of it. My life is the result of a physical act between two humans, preordained by no one.

The more I think about it, the more I think God had no real say in my coming into existence. Humans are free to procreate and fill the earth, if my folks had wanted 12 kids, then God would have infused these other sperm-ovum cells with a soul. My folks were, as far as biology allowed them, to have as many kids as they wanted. As i said earlier, i’ve been eternally on God’s mind because my folks procreated and about 9 months later i came out alive of my mother’s womb (which I wish I did not). The way God chose to organize stuff, he does not create you, he does not create me, I am the result of a biological act, and God added an immortal soul to that bunch of cells (i.e. the more primitive stage of myself). In this system, God may have placed a limit on his power, he may not have had a say in my being conceived and born. Did I summarize correctly your world-view, oldcelt. If so, I’m inclined to think that’s how the world works.

I hate the word “gift” being ascribed to existence. Hell, anything could be called a gift. If your add beats you up and as a result you mistrust your earthly father and fully trust and love your heavenly father, then the abuse was a gift. Elliot Roger’s existence was nothing but a gift (all the more so thinking where his actions led him eternally), same with Ricardo Lopez, Dylan Klebold etc. … All the people with lives stuck, stagnation, frustration, loneliness, despair, battling mental issues or otherwise, with no real hope of ever being fulfilled, satisfied, well-adjusted. But these people are also expected to get in line, take the straight and narrow, or else…