I believe, hope, and pray that God can save every person as well. But note that Timothy says “God wills”, he doesn’t say God “forces”. And that is the classic story of humanity, choosing to rebel against God’s will.You wrote, “I don’t want to speak for the poster, but he was not proposing universalism, which holds that all humanity will be saved outside of free will.”
What does “all humanity will be saved outside of free will”, mean?
I know what “all humanity will be saved” means but what does “outside of free will” mean?
Does “outside of free will”, mean that God “overrides”, so to speak, someone’s free will?
It does say in 1 Tim 2 that “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”, and I believe this and hope and pray for this.
Just because many of us do not think that God can convince without forcing ALL, does not mean that God can not convince without forcing ALL.
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then** follows man’s free acting through his collaboration,** so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.
MAN’S FREEDOM
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
evil is a lack of the good, God cannot create a lack, therefore evil didn’t created by God.Are you sure that God did not create evil?
But God Himself says that He created evil. Why do you disagree with what God has told us?evil is a lack of the good, God cannot create a lack, therefore evil didn’t created by God.
Paragraph 7. The Fall
385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? “I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution”, said St. Augustine,257 and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For “the mystery of lawlessness” is clarified only in the light of the “mystery of our religion”.258 The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace.259 We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.260
II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268
Man’s first sin
397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.
The translation in the New American Bible on the USCCB site is “I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe;* I, the LORD, do all these things.” The footnote explains it thus:But God Himself says that He created evil. Why do you disagree with what God has told us?
Isaiah 45:7
Webster’s Bible Translation
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
English Revised Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
Darby Bible Translation
forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
American Standard Version
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
American King James Version
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Jubilee Bible 2000
I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
**Create woe: **God created and controls all aspects of creation (light and darkness, order and chaos).
This just doesn’t seem to jive with what I am reading from Catholic sources elsewhere. The Catholic Encyclopedia states:“knew” and “before” are inapplicable to God because He transcends time and space. He certainly knows everything that is knowable but the decisions of non-existent persons are not in that category. The only distinction that counts in the spiritual realm is whether we exist or don’t exist. “When” and “where” don’t come into the picture because **we **are created in the image of God. Our bodies began to exist at a precise moment and in a precise place but our souls are not limited by physical factors. We transcend the material world with our power of reason and free will. We are created beyond time and space yet unlike God we are not eternal.
It is difficult for us to grasp the distinction between being created timelessly and **beginning **to exist because we are living in time and space. Yet we know that truth and freedom, justice and love exist independently of when and where our bodies are located. That is why knowledge of an **uncreated **person’s decisions are unknowable.
The very fact that we can defy God and reject His love demonstrates that we have supernatural power which is not scientifically explicable or subject to the laws of nature. So it is not surprising that our decisions are not eternally predictable. Omniscience is inextricably linked with omnipotence. By sharing His power with us God makes Himself vulnerable in more ways than one - in heaven as well as on earth.
Jeremiah 1:5 reads, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you,” indicated that God knew Jeremiah prior to creating him.That God is omniscient or possesses the most perfect knowledge of all things, follows from His infinite perfection. In the first place He knows and comprehends Himself fully and adequately, and in the next place He knows all created objects and comprehends their finite and contingent mode of being. Hence He knows them individually or singularly in their finite multiplicity, knows everything possible as well as actual; knows what is bad as well as what is good. Everything, in a word, which to our finite minds signifies perfection and completeness of knowledge may be predicated of Divine omniscience, and it is further to be observed that it is on Himself alone that God depends for His knowledge. To make Him in any way dependent on creatures for knowledge of created objects would destroy His infinite perfection and supremacy. Hence it is in His eternal, unchangeable, comprehensive knowledge of Himself or of His own infinite being that** God knows creatures and their acts, whether there is question of what is actual or merely possible.** (Emphasis added)
The Latin Vulgate says:The translation in the New American Bible on the USCCB site is “I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe;* I, the LORD, do all these things.” The footnote explains it thus:
I know that hell is real because I have experienced hell.I’m not sure what you’re saying at this point. If you are saying that God wants no one to go to Hell, I can agree. If you are saying that salvation was intended for all, I also agree. If you are saying that we can hold onto the hope that somehow everyone has been saved thus far and that all of those who are alive and will live will somehow be saved, I can share that hope with you, however unlikely it may be. If you are saying that Hell is not a very real possibility, I have to disagree.
God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”* (CCC 1037).
But that doesn’t mean that it’s not a possibility:
To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.” (CCC 1033)
If you don’t believe that God is Omniscient, fine.“knew” and “before” are inapplicable to God because He transcends time and space. He certainly knows everything that is knowable but the decisions of non-existent persons are not in that category. The only distinction that counts in the spiritual realm is whether we exist or don’t exist. “When” and “where” don’t come into the picture because **we **are created in the image of God. Our bodies began to exist at a precise moment and in a precise place but our souls are not limited by physical factors. We transcend the material world with our power of reason and free will. We are created beyond time and space yet unlike God we are not eternal.
It is difficult for us to grasp the distinction between being created timelessly and **beginning **to exist because we are living in time and space. Yet we know that truth and freedom, justice and love exist independently of when and where our bodies are located. That is why knowledge of an **uncreated **person’s decisions are unknowable.
The very fact that we can defy God and reject His love demonstrates that we have supernatural power which is not scientifically explicable or subject to the laws of nature. So it is not surprising that our decisions are not eternally predictable. Omniscience is inextricably linked with omnipotence. By sharing His power with us God makes Himself vulnerable in more ways than one - in heaven as well as on earth.
It seems you are thinking about God as having perfect human knowledge.This just doesn’t seem to jive with what I am reading from Catholic sources elsewhere. The Catholic Encyclopedia states:
Jeremiah 1:5 reads, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you,” indicated that God knew Jeremiah prior to creating him.
I’m open to correction on this if you can point to authentic Catholic sources stating otherwise.
You wrote, “But note that Timothy says “God wills””.I believe, hope, and pray that God can save every person as well. But note that Timothy says “God wills”, he doesn’t say God “forces”. And that is the classic story of humanity, choosing to rebel against God’s will.
The Church is clear that the cooperation of free will is necessary for salvation. God does not force man to choose him. God accomplishes redemption and salvation for every man through Christ, but free will is still operative in accepting the gift.
Since you said that “evil is a lack of the good”, are you saying that there is no evil?evil is a lack of the good, God cannot create a lack, therefore evil didn’t created by God.
Talking in circles does not make it so.It seems you are thinking about God as having perfect human knowledge.
God is more than a Being existing solely in this isolated moment, but having knowledge of the past and future.
He exists outside of time creating every moment.
Thus, He creates someone in time but knows them eternally.
For God, if someone is not created, it is not just at a point in time - they are never created; there is no person to know.
To God there is no before or after.
He knows “you before you were born” because He is before you were born as He is when you are born as He will be at your death bed and after you are dead and with Him in heaven.
God is also surprised with our decisions although knowing what they are.
He is surprised because it is we who decide what road we will follow.
He is surprised where and when He, who is outside of time, meets us in time.
I’m not sure if I can communicate this.
I agree with Tony; nothing he said contradicts what is in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
Can you refer to any authentic Church documents or references? The Catholic Encyclopedia indicates that God knows all possibilities as well as what will happen.It seems you are thinking about God as having perfect human knowledge.
God is more than a Being existing solely in this isolated moment, but having knowledge of the past and future.
He exists outside of time creating every moment.
Thus, He creates someone in time but knows them eternally.
For God, if someone is not created, it is not just at a point in time - they are never created; there is no person to know.
To God there is no before or after.
He knows “you before you were born” because He is before you were born as He is when you are born as He will be at your death bed and after you are dead and with Him in heaven.
God is also surprised with our decisions although knowing what they are.
He is surprised because it is we who decide what road we will follow.
He is surprised where and when He, who is outside of time, meets us in time.
I’m not sure if I can communicate this.
I agree with Tony; nothing he said contradicts what is in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
To say that God can’t know what people will do before He creates them would seem to make them “dependent on creatures for knowledge of created objects.” And again, this says that He knows creatures and the acts, both what is actual and merely possible.Everything, in a word, which to our finite minds signifies perfection and completeness of knowledge may be predicated of Divine omniscience, and it is further to be observed that it is on Himself alone that God depends for His knowledge.** To make Him in any way dependent on creatures for knowledge of created objects would destroy His infinite perfection and supremacy**. Hence it is in His eternal, unchangeable, comprehensive knowledge of Himself or of His own infinite being that God knows creatures and their acts, whether there is question of what is actual or merely possible.
Jesus is God from God, true God from true God and yet according to the following passages He did not know the day or hour:God is either Omniscient or God isn’t…
I would say that God knows something about before and after concerning “events” in God’s creation or there is not God, it is that simple.
While Jesus said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church, he did not discount the possibility that some will not be saved:I know that hell is real because I have experienced hell.
And I do not for an instant believe that I have experienced worse than Jesus because by taking ALL sins upon Himself, Jesus “experienced” everyone’s hell.
Hell is not some monolithic place but is custom-built by its inhabitant, Jesus went to everyone’s hell, there was much more going on at the cross than just the physical death of Jesus.
“The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against IT”, the whole “mission” of Jesus’s Church.
“If I go to sheol, You are there”.
“Who can be saved?”
“With man it is IMPOSSIBLE, with God ALL Things ARE POSSIBLE”.
I do believe God is Omniscient but I don’t believe the decisions of non-existent persons are knowable. Omniscience does not entail absurdity. You need to refute the argument I have presented if your objection is to be credible.If you don’t believe that God is Omniscient, fine.
Non sequitur. How do you reach that conclusion?If you don’t believe that God created that which has been created, fine.
So you believe spiritual reality is subject to the same limitations as physical objects? Where are our souls located?I happen to believe that God created both time and space and us, among other things, and that each and everyone of us has been created at a very specific time and space.
Your implication that I don’t is false - and amounts to another non sequitur.I, also, believe in the Omni’s of God.
Claiming to **know **precisely what God knows is an example of putting God in a box. I may be mistaken in my belief that the decisions of non-existent persons are unknowable but at least I have given reasons supporting it rather than blindly rejecting it out of hand as if it is not worth considering. It is impossible for us to know the precise scope of omniscience because we are not omniscient - just as those who claim this is not the best possible universe imply they know what the best possible universe would be like…Another thing that I obelieve is that many of us attempt to put God in a “box”, no matter how nice the “bx” is, that we attempt to put God in, God just will not fit.
It is impossible for us to know the precise scope of omniscience because we are not omniscient - just as those who claim this is not the best possible universe imply they know what the best possible universe would be like…