Did God Create the Best Possible Universe?

[clem456]

When you examine if something is good, don’t you have to look at what will come out of it? God’s gift of life cannot be said to be inherently good. It may have stemmed from the best intention, from benevolence. Peanuts are legumes, not nuts, but they are a pretty good food both in terms of taste (highly subjective, though) and in terms of nutrition. If I have 10 hungry children who speak a foreign language in front of me, let’s say a handful of peanuts is all I have to offer. Let’s say one of them, unbeknownst to the child and to me, is severely allergic to peanuts. He will perish in terrible pains right in front of me. My intention was good, the gift is not inherently bad, rather the contrary, but the consequences horrible for this child. The child would have been best to not have been given that “gift”. The only difference with the gift of life is that some will essentially misuse that gift, but that they choose of their own volition their course of action does not make the gift any less terrible for them. If i have two sons, want to give them both a motorcycle, if I know one tends to be reckless and not have a very good judgment, I might decide not to give it to him. If God miraculously grants me foreknowledge of what will be and what could be if I buy that particular son a motorcycle, if I see a serious crash, my son permanently disabled and with a severe brain trauma, I will not give him the gift that will be his downfall.
…

But a gift is still a gift. And a gift like a share in the divine life is quite a gift. Consequences resulting from human free will and behavior cannot diminish the gift.

 

[Cimachol]

When you examine if something is good, don’t you have to look at what will come out of it? God’s gift of life cannot be said to be inherently good. It may have stemmed from the best intention, from benevolence. Peanuts are legumes, not nuts, but they are a pretty good food both in terms of taste (highly subjective, though) and in terms of nutrition. If I have 10 hungry children who speak a foreign language in front of me, let’s say a handful of peanuts is all I have to offer. Let’s say one of them, unbeknownst to the child and to me, is severely allergic to peanuts. He will perish in terrible pains right in front of me. My intention was good, the gift is not inherently bad, rather the contrary, but the consequences horrible for this child. The child would have been best to not have been given that “gift”. The only difference with the gift of life is that some will essentially misuse that gift, but that they choose of their own volition their course of action does not make the gift any less terrible for them.

In the case of the peanut analogy, the child does not choose to be allergic to the peanuts. In the case of souls that go to hell, as I understand it, they chose that, not because it was in their nature to do so, but because they chose to act against God’s will for them.

As for the motorcycle analogy, I don’t believe it applies. You are talking about one child who has the capacity to drive a motorcycle safely and another who doesn’t. I don’t believe God gives anyone life who will not in some way have the ability to respond to His grace in a positive way.

 

[tonyrey]

That seems to contradict the following:
“If anyone says that the one Jesus Christ, true Son of God and true Son of Man, was ignorant of future things, or of the day of the last judgment … let him be anathema.”—Pope Vigilius, Against Nestorians, May 14, 553 (Denzinger, 29th ed., No. 419).

Not to be ignorant of future things is not the same as being omniscient:

However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

Matthew 24:36

 

[tonyrey]

I thought that Jesus did have all the divine attributes since according to the creed He is true God from true God.

He has all the divine attributes **in heaven **not on while on earth.

A propos of the OP, it wouldn’t have been the best possible universe if Jesus hadn’t
redeemed us.

 

[Robert_Anthony]

Not to be ignorant of future things is not the same as being omniscient:

Matthew 24:36

Not sure why you persist in error when you have been corrected many, many times. You are flirting with heresy and anathema.

newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.ca/2011/05/did-jesus-know-day-and-hour-of.html

Perhaps you want to make Jesus more merely human to make it easier to relate to him and to identify with him. Please take the time to read carefully. You are leading others in error as well. In the spirit of genuine fraternal correction.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Prior to the beginning of this cosmos, God had a choice between an infinite (or nearly infinite) number of possible worlds that he could have created. God chose to create this one. This leads some philosophers to suggest that this is the best possible world that could have been created because obviously:

1. God is good
2. A good God would create the best possible world
3. Therefore, this must be the best possible world

The line of reasoning also works in reverse:

1. God is good
2. A good God would create the best possible world
3. This is not the best possible world
4. Therefore, God doesn’t exist

I would like to argue, however, that God is in no way obligated by his goodness to create the best possible world. The reason is because the “best possible world” can only be brought into existence by the creatures that God creates (by their obedience to his commands), and not by God himself. In other words, I think that premise 2 above is a non-sequitur: God is not required by his goodness to create the best possible world. I think it is clear that God could have chosen a world where more of his creatures obeyed his commands, but he did not. However, I fail to see how this impugns God’s goodness, because God’s intent toward his creatures is always the same: that they all be saved.

Therefore, I propose that God could freely choose a universe where more people go to hell over a universe where no-one goes to hell and still be just as morally good. In other words, he could freely choose to not create the best possible world and it would not affect his goodness at all. Am I wrong?

Have you ever thought that it is not what we “see” at present but when God’s Will comes to Fruition when God’s Plan completely unfolds.

 

[Achilles6129]

Have you ever thought that it is not what we “see” at present but when God’s Will comes to Fruition when God’s Plan completely unfolds.

I’d agree with that. But really my main point here is that the vast majority of people are going to hell for all of eternity. Did it really have to be that way? Why did God freely choose to create a world where the vast majority of people freely choose to disobey his commands and thus go to hell?

 

[Achilles6129]

Achilles6129,
God, in certain circles, enjoys a perfectly guarded immunity.

I’ve already said I would accept a definition of goodness based upon logic, since God would obviously be a perfectly logical being. I invited you to show me logically how God is evil but to my knowledge you have not responded.

I want to temporarily remove that immunity and look at facts. God is big on justice, we all get that. If I was the creator, heck if I begot children, if i knew that out of the 100 (for argument’s sake, let’s say I’m king David to make this plausible), 30 would not go with my plan and would be free thinkers, or whatever you want to call them. If I knew that by virtue of my internal makeup, I would have no choice but to punish them in such a way that they would forever be miserable, in agony, in utter despair, what I’M SAYING IS IF I HAVE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF THIS, I MAY VERY WELL CHOOSE MY POTENTIAL OFFSPRING’S FUTURE HAPPINESS OVER MY OVERLY HARSH JUSTICE. A guy with Latourette may not be able to refrain from coprolalia, God may not be able to do anything but keep in eternal misery an impenitent soul. So why create it, why allow it to be born for eternal tragedy. You will talk of personal choice, God’s grace and whatnot, WHAT I’M SAYING IS THAT YOU AND I BOTH KNOW THAT IN THE END SOULS, MANY SOULS WILL BE LOST. Why if you’re perfectly good and loving would you even do that? Give a child a grenade, tell him not to touch it, when it blows up tell him that none of this would have happened if he had not disobeyed. His 3rd degree burns all over his body are his own making. Better not give him the grenade. Anyone reasonable would reach that conclusion. But God does not.

Your statement was already answered a long time ago on this thread. I asked how the choices of free creatures affects the goodness of God and no-one gave a response. I also pointed out the justice involved in punishing the enemies of God in Scripture and no-one responded to that either.

While we’re at it, what is so great about God’s love and goodness if he has no choice but to be good and loving? If such is his nature, through no fault but not merit either of his own, why is it a big deal?

Good question - let me ask you - why would the fact that God has no choice but to be good be a bad thing?

 

[Achilles6129]

It’s something i’ve never understood of God. Matthew 7:11 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! "

He’s referring to the Holy Spirit there. The “good things” are the things of the kingdom of God, not anything earthly.

 

[Achilles6129]

This is a problem because you have some people saying God is omniscient, and that He has perfect knowledge, past, present and future. Now you say that is not true for God the Son.

When I say “God” I mean God in his full manifestation of glory and in his true state of existence. Obviously God the Son put some of that aside when he came down here to be on earth, which was why it could be said that the Son didn’t know exactly when the end was.

 

[Tomdstone]

When I say “God” I mean God in his full manifestation of glory and in his true state of existence. Obviously God the Son put some of that aside when he came down here to be on earth,.

Not according to the Roman Catholic Nicene Creed which says that Jesus is God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God.

 

[tonyrey]

It is said that we are on God’ mind from all eternity. Past, present and future is all one big present to God. Nothing I ever did or thought or been tempted by, none of these was not known to God well before they happened. When my parents procreated on that fateful day or night (which I curse), God knew that soulfree, was going to be created when the sperm reached the ovum (alas for me). If that sperm reaches the ovum on that specific day, soulfree is created. if my parents are kept from procreation that day or if the sperm which was going to meet the ovum does not meet the ovum, then soulfree is not going to be created. I trust your intelligence to know exactly what I’m talking about. If this sperm reaches the ovum, it,s going to be a stillbirth, if that sperm reaches the ovum, a girl will be born 9 months later, if another one sperm out of the billions of sperms in one ejaculate ends up reaching the ovum, the mother will miscarry two months later, if another sperm reaches the ovum, you have an outstanding athlete, a great musician, another sperm will create a man with Down’s syndrome, another sperm will create a sub human with no potential, no gifts, no talents, nothing to face this brutal life and to become a happy, well adjusted and thriving human being. Plus ADHD, enuresia past the age of 10, the deep-seated, intimate knowledge, conviction that you are a joke of a human being and if you are not very careful, people WILL find out. If a mother emasculates her son and pecks out his eyes, she wil have given him a gift not as poisoned as God’s gift of life to me. Born with a triple serving of the curse of Original sin, a birth defect wondering why the hell he is even alive. Charisma of the character in the movie “The Man Who Wasn’t There” , the cognitive might of a bird. And hypersensitivity as God’s final nail in my coffin. With God and his parody of love.

1.Time is irrelevant because our minds transcend time and space. It is tempting to think in terms of “**before **we existed” and “**when **we exist” but it is a mistake Either we exist or we don’t. The choices of non-existent persons are unknowable just as nothing is unknowable because there is nothing to be known! God knows everything about created minds and nothing about uncreated minds. Omniscience is knowledge of everything that exists. That is why it is absurd to complain that God shouldn’t have created us without consulting us.
2. “The parody of love” exists only in the mind of the person who rejects the love of the One who created us and liberated us from evil. It is up to us to choose whether to accept liberation or to remain isolated and tormented by our bitterness. We are the only ones who can decide.

 

[Robert_Anthony]

I’d agree with that. But really my main point here is that the vast majority of people are going to hell for all of eternity. Did it really have to be that way? Why did God freely choose to create a world where the vast majority of people freely choose to disobey his commands and thus go to hell?

The way I see it. God gives us life, offers salvation through Christ. That’s his part of the deal. God’s goodness for a soul, for an impenitent one stops when the person dies. God is conditionally good I would say. Creating only people who would, with their free-will intact, choose him would have been a manifestation that God is good with everyone, all the time, that is, he would have been absolutely good.

Your statement was already answered a long time ago on this thread. I asked how the choices of free creatures affects the goodness of God and no-one gave a response. I also pointed out the justice involved in punishing the enemies of God in Scripture and no-one responded to that either. ?

If I give someone a hefty sum of money knowing they will quit their jobs, start using drugs and abusing alcohol, and be a human wreck within a year, if i knew beforehand that the money was going to lead to that deplorable situation, was I good, was I benevolent? My intention might not have been to cause the person harm, but i gave the money (not a bad thing intrinsically) knowing full well the person was going to misuse it. People put limits on what God can or cannot do, could have done etc., there was a way to respect each soul’s free-will yet not bring into the world one who was going to die impenitent.

Good question - let me ask you - why would the fact that God has no choice but to be good be a bad thing?

The robot argument in reverse. God wants to be loved for who he is, he wants us to choose him over our ego and sin. The fact that he can only be good, through no conscious decision or effort on his part, he is good the same way a well gives water. There is merit in a man who remains faithfull to his wife when beautiful young women at his job flirt with him, a merit in a man who loves God even though his world may be falling apart, merit in Mother Theresa who served and loved God for 50 years and spent most if not all those years battling depression and doubt etc. God would not create us unable to love him, but he himself is unable to not love us.

He’s referring to the Holy Spirit there. The “good things” are the things of the kingdom of God, not anything earthly.

The “good things” may refer to what you say they do, but I highly doubt it excludes everything else. God knows we have temporal needs.

 

[Robert_Anthony]

1.Time is irrelevant because our minds transcend time and space. It is tempting to think in terms of “**before **we existed” and “**when **we exist” but it is a mistake Either we exist or we don’t. The choices of non-existent persons are unknowable just as nothing is unknowable because there is nothing to be known! God knows everything about created minds and nothing about uncreated minds. Omniscience is knowledge of everything that exists. That is why it is absurd to complain that God shouldn’t have created us without consulting us.
2. “The parody of love” exists only in the mind of the person who rejects the love of the One who created us and liberated us from evil. It is up to us to choose whether to accept liberation or to remain isolated and tormented by our bitterness. We are the only ones who can decide.

You’re saying it would have been unfeasible for God to create a world where only those souls who would freely choose him would be created? You do realize that God is omnipotent, right? Are you saying God had no choice but to create hell exactly the way it is? God is sovereign, hell could have been much milder than it is, God could have made eternal separation from him less of an agony, tragedy, if you say he could not, again you’re putting limitations on what God can or cannot do. God can put Job through untold hardship, God could ask Abraham to slash Isaac’s throat, God could have asked Abraham to go through with the killing of his son, God chose to strike dead whom he chose to strike dead, not to strike dead whom he chose not to strike dead. God chose to free the Hebrews in egypt after so many years, he could have chosen to do it earlier or later, to do it with moses, or with sombody else. God is free, sovereign and omnipotent. Keep that in mind.

Do you recant your erroneous views about Jesus’ humanity and divinity? (see post #221)

 

[clem456]

I’d agree with that. But really my main point here is that the vast majority of people are going to hell for all of eternity. Did it really have to be that way? Why did God freely choose to create a world where the vast majority of people freely choose to disobey his commands and thus go to hell?

The Catholic Church does not claim that anyone is in hell.
The Church holds that hell exists, but does not claim to know who, if anyone, -human- is there.
On the other hand, we do canonize saints.
In theological language, we do not believe in predestination to hell.

 

[Robert_Anthony]

The Catholic Church does not claim that anyone is in hell.
The Church holds that hell exists, but does not claim to know who, if anyone, -human- is there.
On the other hand, we do canonize saints.
In theological language, we do not believe in predestination to hell.

Based on what we do know about God’s justice, that “whoever is not with me is against me”, that the minimal requirement for entrance into eternal hell is one mortal sin unrepented of or not repented of properly (perfect contrition or formal confession, although God is not bound by these), is it reasonable to think a fair proportion of humanity is headed there or already there? The Church makes no quantitative pronouncement on hell, but from God’s word, we can reasonably infer that many, if not most are there or on their way. “For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter”. Achilles made no mention of predestination. Assuming 1/3 of all of humankind down the ages is in hell would be a lot of people! Billions of people. I always took the “1/3 of angels” to mean “more than just a handful”, “a significant proportion of”. The hope that no one is in hell is childish, futile and wishful thinking.

 

[clem456]

Based on what we do know about God’s justice, that “whoever is not with me is against me”, that the minimal requirement for entrance into eternal hell is one mortal sin unrepented of or not repented of properly (perfect contrition or formal confession, although God is not bound by these), is it reasonable to think a fair proportion of humanity is headed there or already there? The Church makes no quantitative pronouncement on hell, but from God’s word, we can reasonably infer that many, if not most are there or on their way. “For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter”. Achilles made no mention of predestination. Assuming 1/3 of all of humankind down the ages is in hell would be a lot of people! Billions of people. I always took the “1/3 of angels” to mean “more than just a handful”, “a significant proportion of”.

You are agreeing the Church makes no quantitative pronouncement and in the next breath talk about billions of damned people. Ok.
You can infer anything you want but the Church teaches that Christ’s redemption is abundantly sufficient for all, it is our free will to accept or reject. We do not know the disposition of any soul, other than canonized saints. We are called to accept that God’s goodness is abundance beyond comprehension, and to hope that all are saved, not assume that God could have done better.

If you instead work from the assumption that many are damned, can you possibly be living the Gospel???

 

[Robert_Anthony]

You are agreeing the Church makes no quantitative pronouncement and in the next breath talk about billions of damned people. Ok.
You can infer anything you want but the Church teaches that Christ’s redemption is abundantly sufficient for all, it is our free will to accept or reject. We do not know the disposition of any soul, other than canonized saints. We are called to accept that God’s goodness is abundance beyond comprehension, and to hope that all are saved, not assume that God could have done better.

If you instead work from the assumption that many are damned, can you possibly be living the Gospel???

Movie with Tom Cruise, A Few Good Men. “Does the Code specify how to get to the cafeteria?” (remember that scene?) Not every little detail was written in the Code, just like not every single aspect of life temporal and eternal is spelled out in the whole of Catholic teachings. There are countless demons, that’s a fact. I believe it’s plausible, for the reasons I mentioned, that damned souls are also countless. God’s world is what it is. God did not owe us the best possible universe. He owes us nothing. Without Christ’s incarnation no on would be in Heaven with God, not one soul. God didn’t owe us a way out of our first parents’ condemnation, he gracefully did, but he was in no way obligated. The Fall and the ensuing curse on all humanity shows you how seriously God takes sin. Think about it. God does not owe everyone Heaven, he offers salvation. shows the means (Christ and the Church) and that’s the end of it. If 60% of all humanity says no to that offer, then God will judge them accordingly, which does not mean they are automatically damned.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . it’s plausible, for the reasons I mentioned, that damned souls are also countless. God’s world is what it is. God did not owe us the best possible universe. He owes us nothing. Without Christ’s incarnation no on would be in Heaven with God, not one soul. God didn’t owe us a way out of our first parents’ condemnation, he gracefully did, but he was in no way obligated. The Fall and the ensuing curse on all humanity shows you how seriously God takes sin. Think about it. God does not owe everyone Heaven, he offers salvation. shows the means (Christ and the Church) and that’s the end of it. If 60% of all humanity says no to that offer, then God will judge them accordingly, which does not mean they are automatically damned.

I don’t know but what you say makes sense to me.

It is not God’s love, His compassion and mercy, what is at issue is the evil in men’s hearts.
Mankind has been saved and redeemed. What each individual chooses for himself is another matter.
There are some very bad people in this world. People who would redo the harm they have brought into existence, again and again if they had the chance.

Sure it is sin and Christ will take it from us. But if we cling to it, if we refuse to let go?
If one does not repent, does not acknowledge his wrongdoings, does not care about those whom one has hurt, I can’t see how there is any place for that person in paradise.
Heaven, after all, is the seat of love, of giving all that is oneself to God. It makes no sense.
That God can make us do that (separate us unwillingly from the sin we have become) is as nonsensical.
He would do that in a moment right now. No more wars; no more hate. What would be the point of all this terrible misery?
We have the freedom of choosing whom we will become. There will be justice; and, it will be true - the judge is Love.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I’d agree with that. But really my main point here is that the vast majority of people are going to hell for all of eternity. Did it really have to be that way? Why did God freely choose to create a world where the vast majority of people freely choose to disobey his commands and thus go to hell?

First off I disagree with your “main point” which is “that the vast majority of people are going to hell for all of eternity”.

By “for all of eternity”, I suppose that you mean for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, did I suppose correctly?

I happen to believe that if “the vast majority of people are going to hell for all of eternity”, meaning for ever and ever and…, that this would be pretty much the second worse universe that God could have created, the first worse would be if everyone would go to hell for ever and ever and… .

It seems that quite a few believe what you seem to believe, however, I believe that God became One of us to become the Saviour of ALL of us and in God’s Plan of Salvation for ALL, God asked us to be active participants in God’s Saving Plan.