Did God Make A Mistake?

[NotWorthy]

Lev23 and Hellisreal,

1. If we are still under the strictures of the Abrahamaic Covenant, why are we no longer required to be circumcised, which is the sign of that Covenant?
2. If the Mosaic Covenant is still in effect, when will the last of the Curses of Deuteronomy take place? We’ve seen every other curse fulfilled, but not death (at least in your reasoning).
   Deut: 28

"All these curses will come upon you, pursuing you and overwhelming you, until you are destroyed, because you would not hearken to the voice of the LORD, your God, nor keep the commandments and statutes he gave you…therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and utter poverty, you will serve the enemies whom the LORD will send against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck, until he destroys you.

I say that this curse has been lifted by Jesus’ death. His death freed Israel from this Covenant, because this was the future of Israel under this Covenant.

 

[Lev23]

I don’t think it is or does. Do you see any resemblence between Israel of today and Israel of the 1st century? Can you you see any role that the religious priesthood has in Israel’s government? I’m not expert, but I certainly don’t see it.

So, I ask again. If a Jew converts to Catholicism, are they still bound by the dietary and purification laws of Judaism?

Yes, Jesus will come back. But what do you mean to Jerusalem only and not New York or Rome? Jesus will bring the new Jerusalem with Him to and for all of us.

1.Todays Israel resembles what is spoken of it in Gods prophecy. Most will be brought back even in thier unbelief. They are hated of almost all the nations. The land will flourish again. The land will be divided by the nations. Where do you read that Israel will brought back looking like Israel of the 1st century? But we know that Jesus will come back the way he went up, from the mount of olives east of Jerusalem(Acts1:11Zech14:4) and those jews that look a upon him will believe and be saved. So there will have to be a Israel and jews there for this to happen.

2.I dont know where this question came from. But no thery’e not. Even though the catholic church has its own “laws”.

3.So on what basis do you take the new Jerusalem literally but not the 1000 year reign beforehand?

 

[NotWorthy]

1.Todays Israel resembles what is spoken of it in Gods prophecy. Most will be brought back even in thier unbelief. They are hated of almost all the nations. The land will flourish again. The land will be divided by the nations. Where do you read that Israel will brought back looking like Israel of the 1st century?

I’m just saying that the Israel of today is in no way similar to the Israel of yesteryear.

But we know that Jesus will come back the way he went up, from the mount of olives east of Jerusalem(Acts1:11Zech14:4) and those jews that look a upon him will believe and be saved. So there will have to be a Israel and jews there for this to happen.

2.I dont know where this question came from.

They came from me.

But no thery’e not. Even though the catholic church has its own “laws”.

That’s correct, because the Catholic Church is an intergral part of the New Covenant. So in your words, they’re still under the Mosaic Covenant, but not the Covenant Law? Aren’t the Laws of a Covenant part of what binds you to the Covenant?

3.So on what basis do you take the new Jerusalem literally but not the 1000 year reign beforehand?

Jesus’ 2nd Coming will be on Judgment Day, not 1000 years before Judgment Day. The New Jerusalem, Heaven, will come down with Jesus on His Triumphant return.

 

[Yerusalyim]

1. If we are still under the strictures of the Abrahamaic Covenant, why are we no longer required to be circumcised, which is the sign of that Covenant?

We as Christians are not.

1. If the Mosaic Covenant is still in effect, when will the last of the Curses of Deuteronomy take place? We’ve seen every other curse fulfilled, but not death (at least in your reasoning).
   Deut: 28

The Mosaic Covenant is still in effect for the Jewish People…not the gentiles.

 

[NotWorthy]

We as Christians are not.

So Jews are still under tha Abrahamic Covenant, but Christians, who represent the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham are not? Now I’m confused. What are the needs of adhering to a covenant if it has been fulfilled? If it has yet to have been fulfilled, why should we abandon it -** for we all agree that God keeps all of His promises**!

The Mosaic Covenant is still in effect for the Jewish People…not the gentiles.

So what becomes of the last curse of Deuteronomy for Israel?

 

[Lev23]

I’m just saying that the Israel of today is in no way similar to the Israel of yesteryear.

They came from me. That’s correct, because the Catholic Church is an intergral part of the New Covenant. So in your words, they’re still under the Mosaic Covenant, but not the Covenant Law? Aren’t the Laws of a Covenant part of what binds you to the Covenant?

Jesus’ 2nd Coming will be on Judgment Day, not 1000 years before Judgment Day. The New Jerusalem, Heaven, will come down with Jesus on His Triumphant return.

1.So you are saying God is done with the land of Israel and the living unbelieving jews living there and in the world. Even though Paul writes in Romans 11 all Israel will be saved when the deliverer comes from Zion to turn Godlessness away from the house of Jacob. To put it in context on what Paul was referring to, that the remnant saved in the church, his bride, believed in Jesus as the Lamb of God. But there will be jews believing in Jesus as the messiah when they see him coming as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. When this happens, then “all” Israel will be saved.

2.Christian jews are not under mosiac law.

3.Why is Jesus coming back to Israel and to save those jews in the tribulation? Read Joel 3. Read Matthew 24. He will save them from anti-christ and the nations that went up against God’s land and his people, just like he prophesised. Even Rev.20 states there will those given authority to judge. At the end of the 1000 years, the DEAD are judged, it mentions nothing of “nations”. When Jesus comes back to Jerusalem, he will judge the “nations” for how they treated Israel. Hence, in Matthew 24, there are sheeps, goats, and “bretheren”. Goats will not go into the 1000 year reign. Those sheep, who will be stupified on finding out they cared for Jesus by doing the things he said they did to his bretheren during the tribulation, will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign. That is why Jesus laid his prophecy out in that manner in Rev. His bride will be caught up before the tribulation, go before his judgement seat of rewards(1Cor3:14), then the marriage of the lamb takes place in heaven, Jesus returns to save Israel, judge the nations, and reign on King Davids throne in Jerusalem for a 1000 years. His bride will reign with him. The meek will inherit the earth, and so on.

Tell me Im making this up, and Ill tell you this is all in scripture.

 

[NotWorthy]

1.So you are saying God is done with the land of Israel and the living unbelieving jews living there and in the world. Even though Paul writes in Romans 11 all Israel will be saved when the deliverer comes from Zion to turn Godlessness away from the house of Jacob. To put it in context on what Paul was referring to, that the remnant saved in the church, his bride, believed in Jesus as the Lamb of God. But there will be jews believing in Jesus as the messiah when they see him coming as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. When this happens, then “all” Israel will be saved.

But what is Israel? God has gathered all the Jews back to him. They are the Christians! The Church is Israel.

 

[NotWorthy]

2.Christian jews are not under mosiac law.

So please answer this. When a Jew converts, he is no longer under the Mosaic Law? He can basically choose which Covenant he wishes to abide by and still receive God’s promises? I thought Salvation was through Jesus Christ. You’re making it sound like God’s promises to the Jews will only come to fruition to those Jews who happen to be alive when Christ returns.

 

[NotWorthy]

3.Why is Jesus coming back to Israel and to save those jews in the tribulation? Read Joel 3. Read Matthew 24. He will save them from anti-christ and the nations that went up against God’s land and his people, just like he prophesised. Even Rev.20 states there will those given authority to judge. At the end of the 1000 years, the DEAD are judged, it mentions nothing of “nations”. When Jesus comes back to Jerusalem, he will judge the “nations” for how they treated Israel. Hence, in Matthew 24, there are sheeps, goats, and “bretheren”. Goats will not go into the 1000 year reign. Those sheep, who will be stupified on finding out they cared for Jesus by doing the things he said they did to his bretheren during the tribulation, will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign. That is why Jesus laid his prophecy out in that manner in Rev. His bride will be caught up before the tribulation, go before his judgement seat of rewards(1Cor3:14), then the marriage of the lamb takes place in heaven, Jesus returns to save Israel, judge the nations, and reign on King Davids throne in Jerusalem for a 1000 years. His bride will reign with him. The meek will inherit the earth, and so on.

Tell me Im making this up, and Ill tell you this is all in scripture.

I’m not telling you that you are making this up. Where have even hinted that I think you are making this up?

What I am suggesting is that all of what you are saying is in your interpretation of Scripture. All of your arguments breaks down in the fact that Jesus has reconsecrated Israel already, and it’s called the Catholic Church.

 

[theAuthor]

I don’t know. I’ve read it (the OT) quite a few times now and I’ve seen nothing that points to Jesus in a positive way.

Look specifically at Isaiah. It is very, very clear. Remarkably clear for something that was written so long before his birth.

 

[theAuthor]

If the Jews are still under the Mosaic Covenant, then why haven’t they faced all the curses of Deuteronomy? I thought the Jews were released from the Mosaic Covenant (I come to fulfill the Law) and were to follow their Messiah into the New Covenant.

As I review another post, someone asked about the Jewish Temple. Maybe, as a symbol of Israel, it’s destruction signaled the end of the Mosaic Covenant.

Yes, IMO that is sort of correct. The early Christians became a Jewish sect. The destruction of the Temple with Jerusalem in 79AD meant the Christian Church had to become its own thing. It seems like it was not a coincidence. I also agree that the Jews were to follow Jesus into the new covenant, as some did. However, God’s promises still remain irrevocable.

If a Jew converted to Christianity, no, they would no longer be bound by food laws, etc. This was debated and decided by the very Early Church when they were deciding if Gentiles would have to follow food laws, be circumcised, etc. They would then move to be under the New Covenant, and released from the law, as Paul describes in Romans 6-8.

 

[Sixtus]

Not Worthy said:

Why must Jesus die in order to save Israel? The biblical answer is “the covenant.” Israel and Yahweh had made a solemn covenant, and covenants - such as marriage - are permanent. Therefore, the oaths that Israel swore as part of the covenant, which included the curses, could not be taken back. God and Israel swore that breaking the covenant would end in death. According to the curses, Israel had to be exiled and destroyed for her unfaithfulness unless one of the parties was to die. (Deut. 28:15-68, especially vv. 47-48). Israel’s death would hardly solve the problem, and God couldn’t die - or could He? According to St. Paul, this is exactly what God does through Jesus. God becomes incarnate in Jesus, who then takes upon Himself the curses of the covenant and dies on the Cross. Thus the Old Covenant curses are annulled on the Cross. Do we have any covenants today that are broken only in death? Yes, Marriage. As St. Paul says, God has “forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross” (Col. 2:13-14). On the Cross the curse is conquered.

Profoundly put Not Worthy, amazing

 

[Sixtus]

Not Worthy wrote:

So, I ask again. If a Jew converts to Catholicism, are they still bound by the dietary and purification laws of Judaism?
.

Not according to our founding fathers

Yes, Jesus will come back. But what do you mean to Jerusalem only and not New York or Rome? Jesus will bring the new Jerusalem with Him to and for all of us

AMEN

 

[Techno2000]

The Jews who Pray to the Father, are also Praying to Jesus Because, the Father and Jesus are One.

 

[NotWorthy]

If a Jew converted to Christianity, no, they would no longer be bound by food laws, etc. This was debated and decided by the very Early Church when they were deciding if Gentiles would have to follow food laws, be circumcised, etc. They would then move to be under the New Covenant, and released from the law, as Paul describes in Romans 6-8.

This is what I was trying to get across to Lev. You have to understand Covenants. If someone was freed from a Covenant, it can only be because the Covenant has been fulfilled or completed, i.e. the promises have been fulfilled or one of the Covenant parties has died. A Covenant is not like a contract where you can just bow out. The Jews still had to face the Covenant curses.

 

[NotWorthy]

Not Worthy said:

Profoundly put Not Worthy, amazing

Sixtus, are you sure you’re Catholic?!?

P.S. That killed me when I read that the other day.

 

[Valke2]

Look specifically at Isaiah. It is very, very clear. Remarkably clear for something that was written so long before his birth.

Really? If it is so clear how come Jews have disputed such an interpetation for 2,000 years. I’ve read Isaiah more than any of the other prophets, mostly because of disputations that I have been challenged to engage in on the net. I can assure you that while you are secure in your interpetation (or the Church’s) of Isaiah 53, I am just as secure in mine, which is essentially that it is very, very clear that Isaiah 53 is referring to Israel.

 

[Sixtus]

Techno2000

The Jews who Pray to the Father, are also Praying to Jesus

Jesus said: ‘My Father and I are One’ Jn 10:30.This has been my arguement. The Jews consistency in worshipping the Father has always been exemplory.

We hear so much about Jesus criticism of the Jews Jn 8:44, but we must not forget His praise of them also Jn 8:31

They are waiting for the ‘coming of the Messiah’. They will not be disappointed. The great King in all His radiance WILL come on que…at the end of time! Then they will proclaim HIm as THEIR King!

When all the rhetoric and counter-rhetoric has been said, the Old Covenant lives, embedded in the New. Scripture tells us “Christ came not to abolish the Mosaic law but to fulfull it”!

 

[paarsurrey]

But Paar, if this is true, then Scriptures would be wrong. If we can’t trust this essential part of Scripture (this very essential part of Scripture), then what part of Scripture can we trust?

Hi
The scriptures have been misunderstood; the realities have been covered from the eye. We shall have to go deeper into the scriptures to uncover realities hidden so far.There is no harm in making a deep study.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Protestant101]

Well, all I can say after reading all the commotion I caused by one little question in the first post, is that I don’t know what to say now. It’s amazing how some have strayed from the original topic and said what I really think.