Did God really create the world out of nothing?

[itinerant1]

I think our knowledge of God is MUCH more than analogical.

Our knowlege of WHO God is … is now visible in a human person … Christ. We can know God much more than just through the means of analogical reason.

“In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God… and the Word was made flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that is His as the on Son of the Father.” John 1:1, 14

“That which existed since the Beginning, that we have heard and seen with our eyes, that we have watched and touched with our hands, the Word who is life. That life was made visible, we saw it and are giving our testimony, telling you of the Eternal Life which was with the Father and has been made visible to us.” ! JOHN:1-2

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:8,9

The eternal life of God (infinite) has now become visible in a human person (finite) … We can know God much more than just through the use of analogy. We can see and know God in a person … in a personal relationship with Christ … who wants to have a personal relationship with each one of us with the gift of His Holy Spirit … at least that has been my experience.

In response to your objection I will both agree and disagree with various things you have stated.

First, it must be pointed out that there are different ways of knowing. For example, when we talk about our “awareness” of the presence of God, the term “awareness” has a psychological meaning, one which we cannot very well avoid. Yet, that “awareness” of God’s presence in our life of which we speak is above the psychological. It is a way of knowing God’s presence that is more mystical and involves the soul in deeper ways than can be characterized or expressed by psychological terms such as “awareness”.

Second, the context of the reference to analogical knowledge in my previous post pertained to the difficulty, or rather impossibility, of properly understanding creatio ex nihilo. This is because our senses and intellect do not, and cannot have any experience of creatio ex nihilo.

Third, in this life we cannot have any experience of the divine essence. So, to know God more fully, he had to take human form and accommodate our way of knowing in this life. We hear with our ears the words of Christ; we, or at least those living in Christ’s time, saw with their eyes the love, compassion, wisdom, and so on of Christ. We were taught through our senses while the Divinity of Christ remained hidden behind his human appearance, just as Christ remains hidden behind the appearance of bread and wine in the Eucharist.

Yet, we know Christ is present in the Eucharist because of our faith. As St. Paul pointed out, we see as through a glass darkly.
For example, we know that God is wisdom. He has revealed that the second person of the Trinity is the Logos or wisdom of God. When we apply the name “wisdom” to God, our concept of wisdom is not, of course, synonymous with human wisdom. Neither is it equivocal. If the term was used equivocally then we would know nothing of God’s wisdom. Therefore, we must assert that the term is analogical, and reveals some relationship to our experience with wisdom.

God’s wisdom has no limitations as does human wisdom. Human wisdom is an attribute. With God, wisdom is not an attribute. He is wisdom itself. Thus we have removed in our conception of divine wisdom all limitations characteristic of creaturely wisdom.

It is a negative way of knowing that asserts something positive about the divine essence. This is analogical knowledge. It is seeing through a glass darkly.

 

[Dameedna]

It seems to me it would be better to say that God created the universe “out of His potentiality” rather than to say “out of nothing.”

Maybe the universe alway’s existed, in it’s potential, or actual form.

To say something alway’s existed, could be true. To say it is God, and not an infinately potential universe is belief.

Or, the universe and God are the same thing. The universe is “gods” potential realized.

I think you are holding a good argument, again as I read more and more about this, it is almost as though we are talking about the same thing, under a different label.

 

[jkiernan56]

Maybe the universe alway’s existed, in it’s potential, or actual form.

To say something alway’s existed, could be true. To say it is God, and not an infinately potential universe is belief.

Or, the universe and God are the same thing. The universe is “gods” potential realized.

I think you are holding a good argument, again as I read more and more about this, it is almost as though we are talking about the same thing, under a different label.

No, I do not think the universe and God are the same thing. God is completely OTHER. Everything that is created depends on God while God DOES NOT depend on anything He has created. God and His creation are 2 totally separate realities. To think God and creation are the same is the fallacy of Pantheism.

 

[jkiernan56]

First, it must be pointed out that there are different ways of knowing. For example, when we talk about our “awareness” of the presence of God, the term “awareness” has a psychological meaning, one which we cannot very well avoid. Yet, that “awareness” of God’s presence in our life of which we speak is above the psychological. It is a way of knowing God’s presence that is more mystical and involves the soul in deeper ways than can be characterized or expressed by psychological terms such as “awareness”.

Yes, there are many ways of knowing, and experience is a one of them. God wants us to know and experience Him in Christ was what I was trying to say. How Christ can be experienced and known is a whole different conversation for another thread.

But back to the original question (did God really create the world out of nothing) - It has been stated that God is pure actuality and has no potentiality (all act). I’m not sure yet I am on board yet with this statement. Is this an accepted fact in philosophy and theology?

The concept of potentiality (being capable of bringing what is possible into actuality; something that can become actual). God does not have potentiality in the sense that He does not already possess all that He is (ie - is not lacking). There is nothing more to be gained that God does not already possess. I am not disputing God’s actuality. But I am questioning the idea that God has no potentiality.Doesn’t God have the power of ability (capability) of bringing what He knows into actuality? While for God there is nothing to be brought into actuality, since God is already actuality, but what about you and me? While God is all actuality, His creation is not. Creation is an expression of God’s potentiality (his ability of bring into actuality what is in God’s potentiality). This kind of potentiality does not negate God’s actuality. I am making a clear distinction between God’s actuality and potentiality. While for God there is nothing to be brought into actuality (who and what God is in Himself) - what God is capable of doing is His potentiality. Thus, it appears God created out of His potentiality while remaining in His actuality. So this brings us full circle - wouldn’t it be better to say that God created out of His potentiality rather than the common held idea that God created out of nothing?

 

[Dameedna]

No, I do not think the universe and God are the same thing. God is completely OTHER. Everything that is created depends on God while God DOES NOT depend on anything He has created. God and His creation are 2 totally separate realities. To think God and creation are the same is the fallacy of Pantheism.

You are however, presuming the universe is actually created, which is based on a “belief” that there is a creator, rather than an actual argument for one.

That’s the problem here. The universe could alway’s have existed in one form or another(infinite potential and actualized.)

If something can be infinite, there is no reason to believe it is more than the universe itself…other than, a belief .

 

[jkiernan56]

You are however, presuming the universe is actually created, which is based on a “belief” that there is a creator, rather than an actual argument for one.

That’s the problem here. The universe could alway’s have existed in infinite potential, and has actualized.

If something can be infinite, there is no reason to believe it is more than the universe itself.

Only God is infinite - while His creation is not. God is not His creation.

 

[Dameedna]

Only God is infinite - while His creation is not. God is not His creation.

God is a word we use.

Only the universe is infinite. It is not a creation.

A statment can simply be made. It is meaningless.

 

[jkiernan56]

God is a word we use.

Only the universe is infinite. It is not a creation.

A statment can simply be made. It is meaningless.

Sorry, but you and I totally disagree and are not on the same page at all. God is NOT just a word we use. God is NOT just a concept or idea (while it may be just for you). I hold the position that there is a reality outside your head, whether you experience and know it or not. God is completely OTHER than His creation. And I do not think for one brief second that His creation has anything to do with what God is in Himself. We are not God nor is anything that God created God. Only God is God. What God created is contingent being or existence. God has no contingent existence. God’s name is “I AM”.

God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ " Exodus 3:14

 

[Dameedna]

Sorry, but you and I totally disagree. God is not just a word we use. God is not just a concept or idea (while it may be just for you). I hold the position that there is a reality outside your head, whether you experience and know it or not. God is completely OTHER than His creation.

You have already made a decision that the universe is in fact a creation, and as such it requires a creator. What makes you believe it is a creation and not the reality of existance?

What if it is the thing you call “That which is”.

And I do not think for one brief second that His creation has anything to do with what God is.

You’re assumption invokes a first cause, a creator.

There is a universe. There is infinity. There is no reason NOT to believe that the universe is, in and of itself infinity.

Just like God. They are one and the same.

 

[jkiernan56]

You’re assumption invokes a first cause, a creator.

There is a universe. There is infinity. There is no reason NOT to believe that the universe is, in and of itself infinity.

Just like God. They are one and the same.

Sorry, but again I am not in agreement with you.
I do not make an assumption that there is a first cause. I accept as fact that God is the first cause, but is not caused. God’s nature and essence is “to be.” God does not derive existence nor is God contingent. While all of creation is existence contingent from God. It is not God nor is it infinite. God and His creation are totally OTHER from each other.

 

[SimonArizona]

God is a word we use.

Only the universe is infinite. It is not a creation.

A statment can simply be made. It is meaningless.

Who is teaching such things? and with what authority?

 

[jkiernan56]

Philosophically speaking, God has no potentiality. He is all actuality, or a philosopher would say, he is all act and no potency.

This statement is a half-truth. It is TRUE that God is all actuality. But it is FALSE that God’s actualilty (what God is in Himself) does not also possess potentiality. God (actuality) brought the universe into being by means of what He is capable of doing (potentiality). Actuality possess’s potentiality. Actuality can make potentiality - actual. You and I are actual because of God’s potentiality. But our existence is contingent from God. It is not God.

 

[Dameedna]

While all of creation is existence contingent from God.

Again, you are presuming that something is created. Why?

Where do you get the idea that something has in fact been created?

 

[Dameedna]

Who is teaching such things? and with what authority?

Christians are. There is an infiite first cause that is necessary. You call it God.

I call it the universe.

It’s your argument not mine

 

[jkiernan56]

Again, you are presuming that something is created. Why?

Where do you get the idea that something has in fact been created?

Personal experience and encounter with God.

 

[SimonArizona]

Again, you are presuming that something is created. Why?

Where do you get the idea that something has in fact been created?

God has told man that He Himself has created him and the stars, sun, moon, “heavens and the earth” etc.

 

[Dameedna]

God has told man that He Himself has created him and the stars, sun, moon, “heavens and the earth” etc.

And where did you get that from? In what form did God share this knowlege?

 

[crowonsnow]

God has told man that He Himself has created him and the stars, sun, moon, “heavens and the earth” etc.

A partucular story about a particular god tells this. There is no evidence that this particular god character in this particular god story is any more real than any of the other tens of thousands of stories about thousands of other god characters.

 

[Dameedna]

Personal experience and encounter with God.

So at the end of the day, it’s all about how the individual percieves his life.

Means nothing to the non-beleiver. Sigh…

 

[SimonArizona]

And where did you get that from? In what form did God share this knowlege?

God has with Himself a spirit of wisdom and knowledge. He dispatches her from His throne and into prophets like Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. God has spoken to man in many ways, prophets wrote down what God commanded them to write, and we begin with the old testament.