F
Fran65
Guest
You are right in saying before the universe there was God, so it was not ‘nothing’. So, yes, that sounds ‘better’ .However, it is then important not to fall into the trap of pantheism (God in everything) as a result…
- Status
J
jkiernan56
Guest
Exactly - the train has come off the track. We can take up the side issues in another thread.
Reading and listening to all that has been posted in response to the question, I have come to a better grasp of my understanding of God’s Actuality and His Potentiality. God’s Actuality possesses His Potentiality. God created out of His Potentiality and it is more accurate to say He created out of this rather than out of nothing.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
I am very clear where I draw the line. I do not agree with the idea of Pantheism either.
By the way, I am not interested in what sounds better as you mentioned in your response, but rather I am in search of a better understanding of what really is … in other words to use an analogy… who is the person behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz? I don’t want to know what appears to be on the outside of the curtain (ie - sounds better)
B
bbarrick8383
Guest
I think if I live my life accordingly I might get a chance to see the other side of the curtain.I am very clear where I draw the line. By the way, I am not interested in what sounds better but rather I am more interested in understanding what really is … in other words to use an analogy… who is the person behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz? not just what appears to be on the outside of the curtain
I also understand that I can not understand what really is at this point in my physical life.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
I am not in agreement with that statement that we cannot know what really is. We will not be able to fully understand in this life, but it still does not mean that we cannot know something of what really is.
As 1 Corinthians 13:12 says “Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
We can know, we just can’t know fully.
Faith is not just a blind leap into darkness.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
God gave us the ability to know and reason, and so with the understanding we have about God through the use of reason, we can peer in the direction of the question I asked -
Did God really create out of nothing? Reason leads me to understand that God’s actuality possesses His pontentiality (what God is capable of doing). Therefore, God created out of His potentiality, even though God in Himself is in actuality. A person has to better understand these two terms in order to see what I am pointing to … as well as hearing from others where my reason has holes in it. Where did you and I exist before creation? In the potentiality of God. We were NOT created out of nothing - bur rather the potentiality of God This potentiality of God is possessed by God’s actuality.
E
Eucharisted
Guest
Where in my post did I say God did not exist? And for that matter, how could I say God created the world if I had said God didn’t exist? The Lord is eternal, is He not?
I forgive you for your misunderstanding. God bless!
J
jkiernan56
Guest
I did not say that you said God did not exist. I think it was you who rather misunderstood my response. My response to you was “That is NOT true that NOTHING existed before the beginning. God existed.” My response does not indicate that you said God did not exist. We both agree that God existed before creation. But what did God create from? NOTHING? I say God created from his actuality and potentiality. God’s actuality and potentiality are NOT nothing. NOTHINGNESS did not exist before creation. God did not create from NOTHINGNESS, but rather from something - which if you read the later postings, you will find out that something I think God created from is His potentiality. And I do not infer that God’s potentiality is a form of substance or matter.
B
bbarrick8383
Guest
The closest description of what heaven will be like is in the parables right?
That’s kind of what I meant, we have such a small glimpse of what it will be like.
B
bbarrick8383
Guest
Is our evidence that God has given us, enough to even come close to finding out what it could have been that he used to create this world? I’d think that he limits us to what we are able to understand, he gives us the free will to look at whatever we want, but that does not mean that he has given us the evidence or ability to find out what he created it from.
What do we know of God’s potential?
In a sense, other than faith and what the Bible tells us, how can we even consider what is possible beyond our own ability?
If you had walked upon a burning bush, without the bush actually burning, would you have considered it to be possible?
Even though, chemically it is possible to make something appear that it is burning, several thousand years ago I’d think it would have been unheard of.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
It is considered a dogma of Catholic faith that, "All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God. " (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott). In other words, God brings the entire substance of a thing into existence from a state of non-existence — *productio totius substantiâ ex nihilo sui et subjecti. *
See more here: Catholic Encyclopedia - Creation
See more here: Catholic Encyclopedia - Creation
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
I think the manner in which the Church expresses it is more accurate. The way you’ve stated above may give the impression that God created the universe from a procession within God. All that has been created was created extrinsic to God, by God. The “nothing” part has to do with distinguishing this kind of Divine creation from the kind of way we produce things from other things, via transformation.
In other words, the axiom, “Energy is neither created nor destroyed” does not apply to God. God can create a new substance without having to have a supply of some other kind of “substance” in his supply box.
If what you mean is merely that “God is the sole principle of all things visible and invisible,” then I agree.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
I have to agree and disagree with you at the same time.
WHAT God is can be understood through reason.
WHO God is only through God’s revelation and faith.
I’m sure you have heard of St.Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”. You should take a look at the links below to see some of the things we can know.
newadvent.org/cathen/01124a.htm
newadvent.org/summa/1.htm
B
bbarrick8383
Guest
Thank you for the links, I will read up on that. I know very little of the Saints actually. My protestant upbringing taught me very little of any Saints, can you believe it? This conversation just intrigued me.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
Thank you for engaging me. I am learning as well.
I stand corrected. God is pure actuality. St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa says “Actuality and potentiality are mutually exclusive, since one means the presence, and the other the absence, of the same determination. Yet, in all beings except God (see ACTUS PURUS) there is a combination of actuality and potentiality; they possess some determinations and are capable of acquiring others. Moreover, the same reality may be considered as actuality or potentiality, according as we take a retrospective or a prospective point of view. In man, skill and science are actualities if we compare them to human nature, which they presuppose. But if we compare them to the actions themselves, or to the actual recall of acquired knowledge to consciousness, they are powers, or potentiae. If we keep the same point of view, it is impossible for the same thing to be at the same time in actu and in potentiâ with regard to the same determination.”
E
Eucharisted
Guest
Let me reword my original post so you can better understand what I meant. I apologize for not being so clear:
God had to create the world from nothing - that is, He did not use any matter to create the world - because He and only He existed before the beginning. There couldn’t be anything before anything because nothing had been created yet by God; only He Who is Eternal existed before the beginning of the world.
As to the question of how God created the world, I say that God is the Source and Summit of all goodness.
J
jkiernan56
Guest
You and I are on the same page as regards to the fact that God did not use any matter to create the world since He and only He existed before the beginning. I am in total agreement with you on this. I guess what I am trying to say has more to do with terminology and what God “used” to create the world. I am not on the same page with you that God used NOTHING. While this may be true to say God used NOTHING - there maybe a better way to express this in theological terms (terminology). I agree that God did not use any substance or matter since only He existed. So my position takes me between a rock and a hard place - that God did not use matter and that God did not create out of NOTHING. What is between these two then? That is where I was trying to go with this discussion. Philosophy and St. Thomas Aquinas talk about actuality and potentiality. See the link below that describes these. I am trying to see if the answer is somewhere here rather than just accept a stated fact that God created out of NOTHING. I am not saying that I won’t accept that commonly held philosophical/theological idea. It might be a case of trying to split hairs and count how many angels are able to dance on the head of a pin. Is it possible that God (who is actuality) and has the ability (capability) of bringing what He KNOWS from the state of potentiality to actuality? The answer is obviously YES since God created us and the universe (which did not exist before the beginning) - but was to God a potentiality that God by His will brought into actuality.
I am now reading up on what the person “ITSJUSTDAVE” wrote in an earlier post:
It is considered a dogma of Catholic faith that, “All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God. " (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott). In other words, God brings the entire substance of a thing into existence from a state of non-existence — productio totius substantiâ ex nihilo sui et subjecti.”
I don’t deny that God brought us and the universe out of a state of non-existence into existence. But the terminology of NOTHINGNESS does not do it for me. I am trying to explore if there is a better way to express (terminology) what God did. Maybe I can’t, but I am not there yet.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
Understand the desire to express the same truth more clearly through the exercise of speculative theology. However, Catholic theology has a “basis,” which is the deposit of faith as presented by the Magisterium. Catholic theology seeks to explain that deposit of faith, not any other. So theology is free to explore formulations which are congruent to that which is taught de fide (dogma) and sententia certa (certain doctrine). The axiom which guides Catholic theology is, “In essentials unity, in doubtful matters liberty, in all things charity” (John XXIII). Theologically speaking, the Magisterium includes the formula “ex nihilo” in its doctrine. Can this be explain in other ways to help contemporary minds better understand the truth of this doctrine? Sure, but not by denial of the magisterial expression “ex nihilo.”
According to John Paul II:
Catholic theologians should always strive, as St. Ignatius Loyola exhorted, “think with the Church.”
J
jkiernan56
Guest
I don’t deny the magisterial expression “ex nihilo” as you seem to suggest here. St. Anselm is quoted as saying “Faith that seeks understanding.” My intention in asking the question “Did God really create out of nothing” is exactly that - to provoke and promote thinking about the question rather than sheepishly and blindly accept truths of our Christian faith without really giving them any thought at all. God who is “actual” obviously possesses the capability of bringing into existence out of nothing. This capability of bringing into being what did not exist into existence is God’s potentiality. Don’t cross wires here and get confused over what I am saying. I do not believe for one second that there is anything else for God to possess that He does not already possess (as if God were lacking and had potentiality to be something more than He already is). That is not the kind of potentiality I am speaking about here. I am talking about the potentiality that God’s “actuality” already possesses … the capability (ie - potentiality) to create out of nothing … in pure theological terms it seems to me to be MORE accurate in saying that God created out of His potentiality than just sheepishly stop at the doctrine that “God created out of nothing” and then turn the page quickly to the next truth.
If I wanted to make a chair, I would have to get some tools and wood to make it. If you ask the question what did I use to make the chair, there are a couple of ways a person could respond: 1) Out of wood 2) with the use of tools 3) The person’s abilities (mind, body, talent etc…)
I accept that God created the world out of nothing “ex nihilo”. But my answer to the question goes beyond the curtain. God used his ability to create out of nothing … ie - His potentiality. It is mindless to just put the magisterium stamp on the question and turn the page.
F
Fran65
Guest
This is a very good point. Questioning and working through those questions deepens rather than weakens faith. We should never be afraid to ask for and seek deeper understanding. It can show a maturity of faith to do so.It is mindless to just put the magisterium stamp on the question and turn the page.
- Status