Did Jesus have Faith?

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John7 said:
a general precept,

Rom 14:23 :
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It does not mean that Jesus had Faith…(Paul was writing about something entirely different)

"Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father” (Jn 6:46) …Faith is when one is does not “see”…(as scripture says).

Jesus has seen the Father…and reveals him to us…we have Faith.

From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Nov. 2006:

“Considering the whole of the New Testament it is not possible to sustain that Jesus was “a believer like ourselves”. The Gospel of John speaks of Jesus’ “vision” of the Father: “Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father”.(Jn 6:46; Cf. also Jn 1:18.)[20] This unique and singular intimacy between Jesus and the Father is equally evident in the Synoptic Gospels.[21] Cf. Mt 11:25-27; Lk 10:21-22.

The filial and messianic consciousness of Jesus is the direct consequence of his ontology as Son of God made man. If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …

Jesus, the Incarnate Son of God, enjoys an intimate and immediate knowledge of his Father, a “vision” that certainly goes beyond the vision of faith. The hypostatic union and Jesus’ mission of revelation and redemption require the vision of the Father and the knowledge of his plan of salvation. This is what is indicated in the Gospel texts cited above.

Various recent magisterial texts have expressed this doctrine: “But the knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all that the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God when He began to enjoy the Beatific Vision”.[22] Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis, 75: AAS (1943) 230; DH 3812.

Though in somewhat different terminology, Pope John Paul II insists on this vision of the Father: “His [Jesus’] eyes remain fixed on the Father. Precisely because of the knowledge and experience of the Father which he alone has, even at this moment of darkness he sees clearly the gravity of sin and suffers because of it. He alone, who sees the Father and rejoices fully in him, can understand completely what it means to resist the Father’s love by sin”.[23] John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, 26: AAS 93 (2001), 266-309.

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of the immediate knowledge which Jesus has of the Father: “Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father”.[24] “By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal”.[25]

The relationship between Jesus and God is not correctly expressed by saying Jesus was a believer like us. On the contrary, it is precisely the intimacy and the direct and immediate knowledge which he has of the Father that allows Jesus to reveal to men the mystery of divine love. Only in this way can Jesus bring us into divine love."
 
I think if you’re focusing on the faith of jesus, then you’re looking at the wrong thing. I mean yes, faith is good and necissary but it’s not something you can study to obtain, and it’s not the most important thing, right? (correct me if I’m wrong, I very well could be.)

I Cor 13:

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
 
In the broad application of the semantics of the word Faith, then Jesus could have faith. In the narrow definition of the word as it applies to theology, Divine faith, and Divine revelation as well as to how it effects them in the study of the Person of Jesus, there are consequences to insisting on Jesus having faith.

It seems that to some, the connotation that Jesus didn’t have faith is in some way implies some sort of defect in Christ. The opposite appears to be true in that for Jesus to have Divine faith this implies a defect in the Hypostatic Union, as St. Thomas Aquinas states in the Summa Theologiae:
It is written (Hebrews 11:1): “Faith is the evidence of things that appear not.” But there was nothing that did not appear to Christ, according to what Peter said to Him (John 21:17): “Thou knowest all things.” Therefore there was no faith in Christ.
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Faith in the Divine theological sense necessarily implies a defect in knowledge, the knowledge of the Father Christ had as a result of the Hypostatic union that is the basis for Jesus’ Divinity. A full theological study would be needed to offer a coherent contradiction to what St. Thomas has given us. Personal opinion falls far short of this.
28. Domestic and civil society even, which, as all see, is exposed to great danger from this plague of perverse opinions, would certainly enjoy a far more peaceful and secure existence if a more wholesome doctrine were taught in the universities and high schools – one more in conformity with the teaching of the Church, such as is contained in the works of Thomas Aquinas.
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Earnest_Bunbury said:
In the broad application of the semantics of the word Faith, then Jesus could have faith. In the narrow definition of the word as it applies to theology, Divine faith, and Divine revelation as well as to how it effects them in the study of the Person of Jesus, there are consequences to insisting on Jesus having faith.

It seems that to some, the connotation that Jesus didn’t have faith is in some way implies some sort of defect in Christ. The opposite appears to be true in that for Jesus to have Divine faith this implies a defect in the Hypostatic Union, as St. Thomas Aquinas states in the Summa Theologiae: Faith in the Divine theological sense necessarily implies a defect in knowledge, the knowledge of the Father Christ had as a result of the Hypostatic union that is the basis for Jesus’ Divinity. A full theological study would be needed to offer a coherent contradiction to what St. Thomas has given us. Personal opinion falls far short of this.
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“Great is Thy faith”

Lamentations 3:23 (Brenton’s Septuagint version, pg.976, ‘hay pistis sou’)

“The just shall live by my faith”

Habakkuh 2:4(Brenton’s Septuagint version, pg.1107)
 
zarthan said:
“Great is Thy faith”

Lamentations 3:23 (Brenton’s Septuagint version, pg.976, ‘hay pistis sou’)

“The just shall live by my faith”

Habakkuh 2:4(Brenton’s Septuagint version, pg.1107)
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Brenton from 1851…

His personal take on translating things…
 
In Habakkuk: “But the righteous liveth by my faith”

The Treatises of Cyprian, 42.
 
“But the righteous shall live by his faith”

Habakkuk 2:4 (RSV from Hebrew)
 
“Since then, we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, ‘I believed, therefore I spoke’, we too believe and therefore speak, knowing that the one who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and place us with you in his presence.”

2 Corinth. 4:13-14 (NAB)

Ps.116:10
 
“The breath of our nostrils, the Lord’s anointed, was taken in their pits, he of whom we said,'under his shadow we shall live among the nations.”

Lamentations 4:20 RSV
 
“But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

John 20:17 NAB
 
"He who consecrates and those who are being consecrated all have one origin. Therefore, he is not ashamed to call them ‘brothers’, saying: ‘I will proclaim your name to my brothers,in the midst of the assembly I will praise you’. And again: ‘I will put my trust in him’. And again: ‘Behold, I and the children God has given me.’ "

Hebrews 2:11-13 NAB
 
Earnest_Bunbury said:
Stick a fork in it cause this thread is DONE!
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This thread could have ended if Bookcat could admit that there are scriptures which might indicate that the Son of God has faith.

This thread could have ended if you, yourself would not accuse those of us who believe in these scriptures as mere ‘opinion’.

Did you ever consider that you and Bookcat may be offending the Spirit of God within us?

Theologically, the Son of God has faith because he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of his Father who sent him. (John 6:3)

Theologically, the Son of God has faith because the Father is greater than him.

“If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
 
zarthan said:
This thread could have ended if Bookcat could admit that there are scriptures which might indicate that the Son of God has faith.

This thread could have ended if you, yourself would not accuse those of us who believe in these scriptures as mere ‘opinion’.

Did you ever consider that you and Bookcat may be offending the Spirit of God within us?

Theologically, the Son of God has faith because he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of his Father who sent him. (John 6:3)

Theologically, the Son of God has faith because the Father is greater than him.

“If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
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Zarthan,

The Sacred Scriptures never state that Jesus had Faith. So I can not admit something that is not the case…

And just cause a certain translation or so (say from 1851) happens to translate certain passages in ways that I believe the standard translations (both Catholic and Protestant) do not …or that some may take it such does not make it so…

“This thread could have ended if you, yourself would not accuse those of us who believe in these scriptures as mere ‘opinion’.”

It is not “believing in these scriptures” per se it is believing in “a certain translation” or so…a translation that is not widely translated such I think in the many Catholic and Protestant Bibles…So it is not “those who believe these Scriptures” vs “those who do not believe them”…I for one believe the Sacred Scriptures! Amen!

Theologians over the ages have already tackled and explained that had the science of vision …an it would seem that such is the explaination…see St. Thomas for example.

“Theologically, the Son of God has faith because he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of his Father who sent him. (John 6:3)”

Actually no where does it say in Scripture etc that this is the case…yes Jesus came to to the will of the Father…YES from the Father whom the SON has SEEN and knows… he “see’s” and “knows the Father”…says nothing about having to have Faith…

“Theologically, the Son of God has faith because the Father is greater than him.”

This and the other must be understood correctly…but that is for another day (readers can see the CCC etc) …but again no sign of Faith…but of the Son who knows and loves the Father …

In ANY case this is Catholic Answers…the person here asked a question seeking how it is to be understood…and seems satisfied with the answer…:

Again this document from the Church shed a good deal of light on the question

**
From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Nov. 2006:**

“Considering the whole of the New Testament it is not possible to sustain that Jesus was “a believer like ourselves”. The Gospel of John speaks of Jesus’ “vision” of the Father: “Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father”.(Jn 6:46; Cf. also Jn 1:18.)[20] This unique and singular intimacy between Jesus and the Father is equally evident in the Synoptic Gospels.[21] Cf. Mt 11:25-27; Lk 10:21-22.

The filial and messianic consciousness of Jesus is the direct consequence of his ontology as Son of God made man. If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …

Jesus, the Incarnate Son of God, enjoys an intimate and immediate knowledge of his Father, a “vision” that certainly goes beyond the vision of faith. The hypostatic union and Jesus’ mission of revelation and redemption require the vision of the Father and the knowledge of his plan of salvation. This is what is indicated in the Gospel texts cited above.

Various recent magisterial texts have expressed this doctrine: “But the knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all that the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God when He began to enjoy the Beatific Vision”.[22] Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis, 75: AAS (1943) 230; DH 3812.

Though in somewhat different terminology, Pope John Paul II insists on this vision of the Father: “His [Jesus’] eyes remain fixed on the Father. Precisely because of the knowledge and experience of the Father which he alone has, even at this moment of darkness he sees clearly the gravity of sin and suffers because of it. He alone, who sees the Father and rejoices fully in him, can understand completely what it means to resist the Father’s love by sin”.[23] John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, 26: AAS 93 (2001), 266-309.

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of the immediate knowledge which Jesus has of the Father: “Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father”.[24] “By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal”.[25]

The relationship between Jesus and God is not correctly expressed by saying Jesus was a believer like us. On the contrary, it is precisely the intimacy and the direct and immediate knowledge which he has of the Father that allows Jesus to reveal to men the mystery of divine love. Only in this way can Jesus bring us into divine love."

Zarthan…may the blessing of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you! Take care!
 
zarthan said:
This thread could have ended if Bookcat could admit that there are scriptures which might indicate that the Son of God has faith.

This thread could have ended if you, yourself would not accuse those of us who believe in these scriptures as mere ‘opinion’.

Did you ever consider that you and Bookcat may be offending the Spirit of God within us?

Theologically, the Son of God has faith because he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of his Father who sent him. (John 6:3)

Theologically, the Son of God has faith because the Father is greater than him.

“If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
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Zarthan,

The Sacred Scriptures never state that Jesus had Faith. So I can not admit something that is not the case…

And just cause a certain translation or so (say from 1851) happens to translate certain passages in ways that I believe the standard translations (both Catholic and Protestant) do not …or that some may take it such does not make it so…

“This thread could have ended if you, yourself would not accuse those of us who believe in these scriptures as mere ‘opinion’.”

It is not “believing in these scriptures” per se it is believing in “a certain translation” or so…a translation that is not widely translated such I think in the many Catholic and Protestant Bibles…So it is not “those who believe these Scriptures” vs “those who do not believe them”…I for one believe the Sacred Scriptures! Amen!

Theologians over the ages have already tackled and explained that had the science of vision …an it would seem that such is the explaination…see St. Thomas for example.

“Theologically, the Son of God has faith because he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of his Father who sent him. (John 6:3)”

Actually no where does it say in Scripture etc that this is the case…yes Jesus came to to the will of the Father…YES from the Father whom the SON has SEEN and knows… he “see’s” and “knows the Father”…says nothing about having to have Faith…

“Theologically, the Son of God has faith because the Father is greater than him.”

This and the other must be understood correctly…but that is for another day (readers can see the CCC etc) …but again no sign of Faith…but of the Son who knows and loves the Father …

In ANY case this is Catholic Answers…the person here asked a question seeking how it is to be understood…and seems satisfied with the answer…:

Again this document from the Church shed a good deal of light on the question

**
From the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Nov. 2006:**

“Considering the whole of the New Testament it is not possible to sustain that Jesus was “a believer like ourselves”. The Gospel of John speaks of Jesus’ “vision” of the Father: “Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father”.(Jn 6:46; Cf. also Jn 1:18.)[20] This unique and singular intimacy between Jesus and the Father is equally evident in the Synoptic Gospels.[21] Cf. Mt 11:25-27; Lk 10:21-22.

The filial and messianic consciousness of Jesus is the direct consequence of his ontology as Son of God made man. If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father. …

Jesus, the Incarnate Son of God, enjoys an intimate and immediate knowledge of his Father, a “vision” that certainly goes beyond the vision of faith. The hypostatic union and Jesus’ mission of revelation and redemption require the vision of the Father and the knowledge of his plan of salvation. This is what is indicated in the Gospel texts cited above.

Various recent magisterial texts have expressed this doctrine: “But the knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all that the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God when He began to enjoy the Beatific Vision”.[22] Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter Mystici Corporis, 75: AAS (1943) 230; DH 3812.

Though in somewhat different terminology, Pope John Paul II insists on this vision of the Father: “His [Jesus’] eyes remain fixed on the Father. Precisely because of the knowledge and experience of the Father which he alone has, even at this moment of darkness he sees clearly the gravity of sin and suffers because of it. He alone, who sees the Father and rejoices fully in him, can understand completely what it means to resist the Father’s love by sin”.[23] John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, 26: AAS 93 (2001), 266-309.

Likewise, the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of the immediate knowledge which Jesus has of the Father: “Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father”.[24] “By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal”.[25]

The relationship between Jesus and God is not correctly expressed by saying Jesus was a believer like us. On the contrary, it is precisely the intimacy and the direct and immediate knowledge which he has of the Father that allows Jesus to reveal to men the mystery of divine love. Only in this way can Jesus bring us into divine love."

Zarthan…may the blessing of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you! Take care!
 
Bookcat: You have exaggerated. I have quoted scriptures from accepted translations throughout this thread. The only exceptions are Lamentations 3:23 and Gal.2:20

As far as Brenton’s English translation from the Greek of Habakkuk 2:4, Cyprian martyr 257 AD interprets the verse in the same manner as Brenton. So, they must have shared the same Greek Text.
  1. That faith is of advantage altogether, and that we can do as much as we believe
    In Genesis: “And Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Also in Isaiah: “And if you do not believe, neither shall you understand.” Also in the Gospel according to Matthew: “O you of little faith, wherefore did you doubt? ”Also in the same place: “If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Pass over from here to that place, and it shall pass over; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.” Also according to Mark: “All things whatsoever you pray and ask for, believe that you shall receive them, and they shall be yours.” Also in the same place: All things are possible to him that believes. In Habakkuk: “But the righteous lives by my faith.” Also in Daniel: “Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, trusting in God, were delivered from the fiery flame.”
As far as Lamentations 3;23 is concerned, Brenton actually translates the Greek into “Great is Thy faithfulness” I included ‘hay pistis sou’ because this is the Greek from which ‘Thy faithfulness’ is rendered. pg.976

In the gospels which were translated into Greek, Jesus on many occasions commends individuals for their faith (not faithfulness). He says, ‘thy faith (hay pistis sou) has healed you’, or ‘thy faith (hay pistis sou) has saved you’ and so on.
 
zarthan said:
Bookcat: You have exaggerated. I have quoted scriptures from accepted translations throughout this thread. The only exceptions are Lamentations 3:23 and Gal.2:20

As far as Brenton’s English translation from the Greek of Habakkuk 2:4, Cyprian martyr 257 AD interprets the verse in the same manner as Brenton. So, they must have shared the same Greek Text.
  1. That faith is of advantage altogether, and that we can do as much as we believe
    In Genesis: “And Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Also in Isaiah: “And if you do not believe, neither shall you understand.” Also in the Gospel according to Matthew: “O you of little faith, wherefore did you doubt? ”Also in the same place: “If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Pass over from here to that place, and it shall pass over; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.” Also according to Mark: “All things whatsoever you pray and ask for, believe that you shall receive them, and they shall be yours.” Also in the same place: All things are possible to him that believes. In Habakkuk: “But the righteous lives by my faith.” Also in Daniel: “Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, trusting in God, were delivered from the fiery flame.”
As far as Lamentations 3;23 is concerned, Brenton actually translates the Greek into “Great is Thy faithfulness” I included ‘hay pistis sou’ because this is the Greek from which ‘Thy faithfulness’ is rendered. pg.976

In the gospels which were translated into Greek, Jesus on many occasions commends individuals for their faith (not faithfulness). He says, ‘thy faith (hay pistis sou) has healed you’, or ‘thy faith (hay pistis sou) has saved you’ and so on.
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I can not go through each verse you have quoted (you keep just posting them…) but those which you try to use to say Jesus had Faith such as “the faith “of” Jesus” are not from standard translations (Catholic or Protestant) (best one is the RSV).

Other verses may be quoted from such but non the less never say Jesus had faith…but are about our having faith…not him. Or are about the “faithfulness” of God (not about his having “Faith”)

Yes individuals are to have Faith!

Yes let us all have faith in Jesus Christ! Amen
 
Bookcat said:
I can not go through each verse you have quoted (you keep just posting them…) but those which you try to use to say Jesus had Faith such as “the faith “of” Jesus” are not from standard translations (Catholic or Protestant) (best one is the RSV).

Other verses may be quoted from such but non the less never say Jesus had faith…but are about our having faith…not him. Or are about the “faithfulness” of God (not about his having “Faith”)

Yes individuals are to have Faith!

Yes let us all have faith in Jesus Christ! Amen
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Bookcat: Once again, you are exaggerating and not being truthful out of ignorance.
The verses regarding faith ‘of Jesus Christ’, or ‘of the Son of God’ are transliterated as such in the Greek. They are not translated into English as such by most Catholic and Protestant translations today. The** KJV does **translate these scriptures into English as such. For example, Gal.2:16; Gal.2:20; Phil.3:9.

Regardless, there are scriptures which I quoted from acceptable sources, (since the KJV is not acceptable to you), that do imply that Jesus Christ had faith, eventhough they may not say, “Jesus had faith”, if that is your point.

There are other scriptures which theologically speak of the implied faith of the Son of God which I have not yet given.
 
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