Did Jesus have Faith?

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zarthan said:
Bookcat: Once again, you are exaggerating and not being truthful out of ignorance.
The verses regarding faith ‘of Jesus Christ’, or ‘of the Son of God’ are transliterated as such in the Greek. They are not translated into English as such by most Catholic and Protestant translations today. The** KJV does **translate these scriptures into English as such. For example, Gal.2:16; Gal.2:20; Phil.3:9.

Regardless, there are scriptures which I quoted from acceptable sources, (since the KJV is not acceptable to you), that do imply that Jesus Christ had faith, eventhough they may not say, “Jesus had faith”, if that is your point.

There are other scriptures which theologically speak of the implied faith of the Son of God which I have not yet given.
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Yes some have translated them so…(I have said as much) and some …say in Protestant circles particularly… may hold them as such…but most Catholic and Protestant translations of the Greek do not I believe translate them in such a way. EVEN the Protestant NAS has them as Faith in Jesus…

(we do not need to debate this…I do not have the time etc to go and research all the ups and downs here…I will concede as I have…that some (particularly among some Protestants) make the case of it being “of Jesus”…but I am not a Greek Scholar…so I can not enter too much into the frey…but if you like call Jimmy Akin on the CA show next Thursday…I will listen for his answer…he will know more able to address the particulars behind such…)

For one is justified initially… by grace by Faith IN Jesus…via Baptism etc…

NO WHERE does Sacred Scripture say Jesus had faith (nor really imply such)…yet interestingly all over the place (as pointed out by another poster above)…others are said to have faith! Surely if Jesus “had Faith” and such was important…it would be noted at least…and more than that it would emphasised. But it is not.

There really is not point for us to keep going back and forth here…I wish you and pray for you…many graces from Jesus Christ the Lord…and bid you good day 🙂

(I will listen though to next Thur’s show)

But again this is the Catholic Answers forum …and so I refer all to the note from the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith (above) of the Catholic Church (and they will be very very versed in such things and the work of various Scholars)…which sheds light on the subject…

Again let us all have Faith in Jesus of Nazareth!
 
Frankly, Bookcat, I do not trust debating this subject with you. This is why I started quoting scripture only.

I may continue to post the scriptures of the theological faith of the Son of God. Particularly, the ones which relate to:
  1. his faith during his life, ministry and sacrificial death on earth.
  2. his faith after his death on the cross when his soul was in sheol.
  3. his faith in the future of things not yet revealed.
 
zarthan said:
Frankly, Bookcat, I do not trust debating this subject with you. This is why I started quoting scripture only.

I may continue to post the scriptures of the theological faith of the Son of God. Particularly, the ones which relate to:
  1. his faith during his life, ministry and sacrificial death on earth.
  2. his faith after his death on the cross when his soul was in sheol.
  3. his faith in the future of things not yet revealed.
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You do not “trust” debating this subject with me??

Now that makes no sense???🤷 oh well.

Anyhow nothing can be quoted that shows that Jesus had Faith (As Son God he did not need it…he had the science of vision…as the various theologians note)

Again I bid you great blessings!
 
Part of the problem Bookcat, is I don’t know if you remember what you say.

I admit that what I said about the words of the Catechism regarding the ‘infused theological virtues’ was not pleasing to God. In general, I was in error about how I explained my frustration with magesterial wording in their explanation of our faith.
I trust that what these servants of God are doing is to the ability that God gives them, and I am not to judge them. For this, I stand guilty.

When I told you that it offended me that you quoted something from church writings that berated any claim that Jesus believed like us, because that I never made such a claim. **How could the leader and perfecter of faith believe like us? Impossibly contradictory and sacriligeous.**Well, you apologized, but then quoted this writing again ( If I am not mistaken).

When I pointed out your misstatement of there not being any Catholic or Protestant translations which read the ‘faith of Jesus Christ’, then you correct yourself, but then it becomes all convoluted any way. If I have to correct you on things that you say that are not true or are offensive, and I get a moving target apology, how can I trust you?
 
zarthan said:
Part of the problem Bookcat, is I don’t know if you remember what you say.

I admit that what I said about the words of the Catechism regarding the ‘infused theological virtues’ was not pleasing to God. In general, I was in error about how I explained my frustration with magesterial wording in their explanation of our faith.
I trust that what these servants of God are doing is to the ability that God gives them, and I am not to judge them. For this, I stand guilty.

When I told you that it offended me that you quoted something from church writings that berated any claim that Jesus believed like us, because that I never made such a claim. **How could the leader and perfecter of faith believe like us? Impossibly contradictory and sacriligeous.**Well, you apologized, but then quoted this writing again ( If I am not mistaken).

When I pointed out your misstatement of there not being any Catholic or Protestant translations which read the ‘faith of Jesus Christ’, then you correct yourself, but then it becomes all convoluted any way. If I have to correct you on things that you say that are not true or are offensive, and I get a moving target apology, how can I trust you?
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I am afraid it is not my memory here…😉

I did not apologize for quoting what the Church document notes…for such is the case…and is germain to the topic…nor do I apologize…I am though sorry for any misunderstanding or inadvertent wrongful offense that was caused…

this is what I said

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7198865&postcount=71

For what that document addresses does concern what you are asserting here… there is much to that document…for example when they write: If Jesus were a believer like ourselves, albeit in an exemplary manner, he would not be able to be the true Revealer showing us the face of the Father…

and then it goes on to talk about his knowledge and vision of the Father…

it very much relates to the question “did Jesus have faith?”…

I think your taking offense is again based in part on your use of language here which differs from mine…

For me to hear “Jesus was a believer like us” this means in part…“Jesus needed faith like us…he did have the science of vision…he needed to walk in the obscurity of faith like us”…such is not the case.

Also I did not say there was no Protestant translations that take it that way…I did not correct myself here…for I did not say such…I said the standard ones…later I elaborated that some Protestants may take it this way…writing more than I did prior…such is not a correction but an elaboration.

Post 21

“As for the last…yes I have seen such argued…It may be “possible” to translate it as such…but that is not how it is normally translated…and not how Pope Benedict XVI been quoting it and giving it to the Church for meditation…it is our faith in him…”

and later forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7210335&postcount=112

then of course this one forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7213572&postcount=116 which you say I was “correcting myself”… I was not though I was again saying yes some have taken it as such…I was simply elaborating (note I even note there that I have said this before)

I certainly do not intend any “offense” …so of course ask forgiveness for any such…but I do stand by the theological etc arguments and the document from the Church etc…

Again I wish you grace and blessings from Christ Jesus!
 
Bookcat: Why even bring up a church writing that you know that does not explain my understanding of the faith of Jesus Christ? This thing about ‘needing faith’ is probably one the issues between us, among other things.

We have other differences. You put the teachings of the church above the Word of God, and I put the Word of God above the teachings of the church. Whenever I give a specific scripture, you bludgeon us with general church documents regarding the scriptural theme at hand, rather than the specific scripture. I thought this forum was supposed to be on the Sacred Scriptures.

Finally, you resist my understanding of any and every scripture that I quote, and when you do respond to a particular scripture, you do it with one liners. I could give you blatant examples of that. It is almost like you have a compulsive need to be always correct.
 
Though I will add that yes…I just now see that the older KJV does translate some of them that way…so yes that would be a standard Protestant version…so I see I was wrong there…

But one should note that the newer version the NKJV translates it as “faith in Jesus Christ”

note too that the Protestant NASB (which attempts to be aqwardly and painfully literal…not tryin to put it in literary English etc…) translates it as “Faith in Jesus” as well…
 
zarthan said:
Bookcat: Why even bring up a church writing that you know that does not explain my understanding of the faith of Jesus Christ? This thing about ‘needing faith’ is probably one the issues between us, among other things.

We have other differences. You put the teachings of the church above the Word of God, and I put the Word of God above the teachings of the church. Whenever I give a specific scripture, you bludgeon us with general church documents regarding the scriptural theme at hand, rather than the specific scripture. I thought this forum was supposed to be on the Sacred Scriptures.

Finally, you resist my understanding of any and every scripture that I quote, and when you do respond to a particular scripture, you do it with one liners. I could give you blatant examples of that. It is almost like you have a compulsive need to be always correct.
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It very much addresses the question…that is why…and this is Catholic Answers forum…so readers want Catholic Answers…

I do not put the teachings of the Church above the Word of God…nor do the teachings of the Church!

Catechism 86…this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

I do not blugeon anyone…I give the document that readers to see …for it sheds much light on things…

But yes regarding if someones private interpretation of the scriptures…is at odds with that of the Church…yes I will go with the Church’s for such is part of the task given her by Jesus…

This includes mine too. If I am at odds with that of the Church…it is mine that I correct…

In this case we have the teachings of theologians down through the ages…as well as a note from the CDF which does shed alot of light on the question…and of course Scripture itself no where says Jesus had faith…(and it would have…for Faith was noted all over the place as important)

You are posting quote after quote…and do not expect a reply??? Of course I give one. Many of your quotes are all about the Faith of human persons…not about Jesus at all …(cause none exist that say he had faith)…

Only if I am correct…do I have a need to assert it as so…

When I am wrong…I want to both know I am wrong…and to correct myself.
*
My opinion* must be the first to fall…before truth.
 
Bookcat said:
yes let us do so!
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This is an example of what I am talking about. The scripture I quoted was referring to the trust that the Son of God had in his Father. Most likely, from the context of this scripture of trusting God that his soul would not be left in Sheol. This word, ‘trust’ in Greek is related to word ‘faith’, or ‘belief’ in Greek.

Instead of admitting that the Son of God had trust in God, you respond, ‘Yes, let us all do so’.
 
zarthan said:
This is an example of what I am talking about. The scripture I quoted was referring to the trust that the Son of God had in his Father. Most likely, from the context of this scripture of trusting God that his soul would not be left in Sheol. This word, ‘trust’ in Greek is related to word ‘faith’, or ‘belief’ in Greek.

Instead of admitting that the Son of God had trust in God, you respond, ‘Yes, let us all do so’.
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Well we should 🙂

Trust does not take on the full meaning of “Faith” …yes Faith includes “trust” but trust does not = “Faith” in the full sense any more than if I say I have “faith in my accountant” means that I relate the to him as I do God …that I have “Faith” in him:)
 
The virtues of faith and hope, in one sense, end when the soul enters Heaven and receives the Beatific Vision of God. For faith is belief in things not know; it is belief, not knowledge. And hope is for things not yet received; it is an anticipation of future reward in Heaven.

However, in another sense, the soul in Heaven still retains faith and hope, not in their earthly, somewhat limited form, but in a higher form, possessing in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.
  1. Jesus had the Beatific Vision of God, and so he did not have the lesser form of faith and hope. But he did have the higher forms of faith and hope, since He possessed in full all that faith believed and all that hope anticipated.
  2. When Christ suffered His Passion, the Beatific Vision may well have been temporarily withheld from His human nature by His Divine Nature (with no harm to the hypostatic union), so that He could suffer more fully. At that time, then, He exercised the same forms of faith and hope that we too exercise.
  3. Jesus had sanctifying grace from His Incarnation/conception. He was baptized in a true Sacrament of Baptism. He is like us in all things but sin. And so He must have possessed, in His human nature, the infused virtues of love, faith, and hope. But as noted above, the virtues of faith and hope were present in their higher forms, except during the Passion.
 
Ron_Conte said:
He was baptized in a true Sacrament of Baptism. He is like us in all things but sin. And so He must have possessed, in His human nature, the infused virtues of love, faith, and hope.
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Aaaa…he was not.

The Baptism was NOT the Sacrament of Baptism. It was the Baptism of John…not that of Jesus and the Church…
 
One poster above put it this way which bring some light too on things.:

"In the broad application of the semantics of the word Faith, then Jesus could have faith. In the narrow definition of the word as it applies to theology, Divine faith, and Divine revelation as well as to how it effects them in the study of the Person of Jesus, there are consequences to insisting on Jesus having faith.

It seems that to some, the connotation that Jesus didn’t have faith is in some way implies some sort of defect in Christ. The opposite appears to be true in that for Jesus to have Divine faith this implies a defect in the Hypostatic Union, as St. Thomas Aquinas states in the Summa Theologiae:

Quote:
It is written (Hebrews 11:1): “Faith is the evidence of things that appear not.” But there was nothing that did not appear to Christ, according to what Peter said to Him (John 21:17): “Thou knowest all things.” Therefore there was no faith in Christ.

Faith in the Divine theological sense necessarily implies a defect in knowledge, the knowledge of the Father Christ had as a result of the Hypostatic union that is the basis for Jesus’ Divinity."
 
Bookcat said:
One poster above put it this way which bring some light too on things.:

"In the broad application of the semantics of the word Faith, then Jesus could have faith. In the narrow definition of the word as it applies to theology, Divine faith, and Divine revelation as well as to how it effects them in the study of the Person of Jesus, there are consequences to insisting on Jesus having faith.

It seems that to some, the connotation that Jesus didn’t have faith is in some way implies some sort of defect in Christ. The opposite appears to be true in that for Jesus to have Divine faith this implies a defect in the Hypostatic Union, as St. Thomas Aquinas states in the Summa Theologiae:

Quote:
It is written (Hebrews 11:1): “Faith is the evidence of things that appear not.” But there was nothing that did not appear to Christ, according to what Peter said to Him (John 21:17): “Thou knowest all things.” Therefore there was no faith in Christ.

Faith in the Divine theological sense necessarily implies a defect in knowledge, the knowledge of the Father Christ had as a result of the Hypostatic union that is the basis for Jesus’ Divinity."
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‘Faith is the evidence of things hoped for’. We have scriptures which imply that sort of hope to Jesus Christ.

One can show that such perfect knowlege of God the Father does not preclude faith in the Father.

Even so, the Son of God does not have perfect knowlege of God the Father. He did not have such knowlege while on earth, and he does not have such knowlege in heaven. Otherwise, he would know** everything **the Father knows.
 
zarthan said:
‘Faith is the evidence of things hoped for’. We have scriptures which imply that sort of hope to Jesus Christ.

One can show that such perfect knowlege of God the Father does not preclude faith in the Father.

Even so, the Son of God does not have perfect knowlege of God the Father. He did not have such knowlege while on earth, and he does not have such knowlege in heaven. Otherwise, he would know** everything **the Father knows.
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…ah it is not what Heb 11:1 says…and note that it is evidence of things “not seen”.

Jesus had the science of vision…

And of course Jesus had “Faith” it would be all over the place in the New Testament…
We have Abraham and so many others noted expressly as examples of “Faith” and yet not Jesus?? Why? (I have already answered this…and we keep going around in circles…I suggest ceasing all of this)

About Knowledge from the Catechism: vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#III
 
I stand corrected, Heb 11:1 states: 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. RSV

Jesus Christ had the assurance that ‘his soul would not be left in sheol, nor would his body see corruption’.

The faith of Jesus Christ is all over the New Testament, especially in the gospels. The words and deeds of Jesus Christ are the living word of God in action and in reality. He said that he does what His ‘Father shows him’. He said, that ‘my food is to the will of God who sent me’. He resisted Satan in wilderness by quoting the word of God. He had faith in the word of God that God’s words would resist Satan. Among such words he quoted, 'man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

This is why Jesus Christ said, 'my food is to do the will of God who sent me". For scriptures say, ‘The just shall live by faith’, and ‘faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God’. Jesus spoke the words His Father said to him, Jesus did the deeds His Father showed him…all in obedient faith to his Heavenly Father.

Several times his Heavenly Father testified of the faith of His Beloved Son, when the Father spoke from heaven and said, **"this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased:**What does Hebrews 11:6 say of faith? “Without faith it is impossible to please Him.”

Jesus Christ, the Son of God was a living testimony of such faith when he was here on earth. In his life, in his sacrificial death and in his resurrection. This is why he is called
‘the leader and perfecter of faith’.
 
I stand corrected, Heb 11:1 states: 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. RSV

Jesus Christ had the assurance that ‘his soul would not be left in sheol, nor would his body see corruption’.

The faith of Jesus Christ is all over the New Testament, especially in the gospels.

It is not anywhere in the New Testament

The words and deeds of Jesus Christ are the living word of God in action and in reality. He said that he does what His ‘Father shows him’.

Not Faith but “seeing”…(even the Hebs verse above notes that faith is when one does NOT see

He said, that ‘my food is to the will of God who sent me’.

Yes…Jesus does the will of the Father…this is obedience not faith…

He resisted Satan in wilderness by quoting the word of God. He had faith in the word of God that God’s words would resist Satan. Among such words he quoted, 'man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

NOT cause of Faith in the word of God…nothing about any faith ere… and above all HE IS THE WORD OF GOD…

This is why Jesus Christ said, 'my food is to do the will of God who sent me".

he is the Son…and obedient to the Father

. Jesus spoke the words His Father said to him, Jesus did the deeds His Father showed him…all in obedient faith to his Heavenly Father.

Yes he knew…and saw…and did the will of the Father…not out of Faith but as the SON

Several times his Heavenly Father testified of the faith of His Beloved Son, when the Father spoke from heaven and said, **"this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased:**What does Hebrews 11:6 say of faith? “Without faith it is impossible to please Him.”

The Father did not testify to the faith of is son…no where.

You are stringing verses together that do not prove or show anything…Hebs is talking about us! not Jesus…does the Holy Spirit please the Father???Does he too then have “Faith” in the Father???

Jesus Christ, the Son of God was a living testimony of such faith when he was here on earth. In his life, in his sacrificial death and in his resurrection. This is why he is called
‘the leader and perfecter of faith’.

Nope…no where does the Bible say he had faith…he is the leader and perfector of our Faith --cause he has seen the Father…
 
Ever since the Nicene councils the power of the gospel has been decimated by the theology of the Son of God that would deny that he had faith, and trusted in his Heavenly Father.

Believe what you will, but I choose to believe in 'the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me" . “The traditions of men, have made the word of God of no effect”
 
Jesus is the revealer of the Father.

Faith by nature is an indirect and obscure kind of Knowledge…one walks in a kind of obscure kind of knowing…Faith is a kind of mediated knowledge…it is based on a witness not on direct seeing… (see Heb 11:1). It needs the witness.

One believes based on the word of the witness…

Jesus is the witness to the Father…he came to reveal what he heard or saw from the Father…(part of his mission). (John 3:11)

Our Faith in what he revealed is based on the fact of his seeing etc (John 3:11, John 8:38)

Jesus is the witness…we have Faith in Jesus who as the Son is the witness of the Father.
 
These are your philosophical and theological opinions. You have already admitted that Jesus Christ** trusted i**n God. Why do you waver like the sea?
 
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