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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
emphasis mine]
It’s hard to tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Anyway…
You’ve opened up an important question; Why would the early Catholics give a hoot about a young pregnant girl named Mary?
The fact is that the people were waiting for a virgin to become pregnant with our saviour (see Isaiah 7:14). And there was no doubt about the baby in Mary’s womb when the baby in Elizabeth’s womb lept with joy when Mary visited Elizabeth (see Luke 1:44) - it reminds one of when David lept with joy in the presence of the Ark (see 2 Samual 6:12).
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impalass
Guest
Yes I am being sarcastic. I am a lapsed catholic (like most are) but answering to this forum that asks " Was Jesus really the son of God" and I give my answers.
You say why would early catholics give a hoot about a young pregnant girl named Mary?..Mary/Joseph/Jesus were all jews…come on there were no catholics in the old testament.
Catholics teach that Judas defied Jesus and turned him in for 30 pieces of silver. Thats what we were taught he was bad. But I believe Judas was good, he did Gods work. Didn’t he? We were all taught that Jesus came here to die for our sins. Without Judas how would christianity have unfolded? Jesus would have lived for our sins! Then the stories would all have to be spun a completely different way.
Do you believe every thing in the bible or just the parts you want to quote? You can’t have it both ways.
There is nothing in the bible that says Mary died a virgin, or ascended into heaven. This was made up by the catholic church like a lot of other stories they spin. There is nothing in the bible about infant baptisms, nothing about priests/nuns/bishops etc. There was no St Christopher that carried baby Jesus across a river and every step he took Jesus got heavier with the weight of the worlds sins, remember that story we were all taught? Sure you do. . A lot of money was made and they still sell St Christopher medals/cards, and he was just a legend. UNBELIEVABLE! Remember growing up teachers/priests and parents teaching us about Limbo where unbaptized babies go?. There is and was no limbo but millions of previous catholic laity/priests/nuns/bishops/cardinals/ & popes have gone to their grave believing there was a limbo because the church taught that. Now the church says it was just a theory. We were never taught it was a theory. The popes previous believed the sun rotated around the earth. Not too convincing as Galileo was right.
Organized religion is basically a family tradition. If you were born into a western culture family you would more then likely be taught only about christianity and never allowed to learn anything else. If you were born into a family down the street that was Jewish you would not be defending the churches teachings and quoting from the bible, and you would believe that Jesus was not the son of god. Why? Because thats what your parents would have taught you. I was taught like you that God loves everyone. Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians, Wicca…etc. No one has any special priveledges but the church brain cleanes people to believe they are right and others are wrong. Thats why the world is in the mess that it is. Organized religions divide people.
Religions of all cultures take in billions of dollars every year from the hard working laity. Churches pay no taxes and every week they ask for more. Can it get better then that!
For years the church has requested that people tithe. It says so in the bible too. 10% of your gross income. 5
% to the church and 5% to bishops fund etc. I wonder how many so called good catholics tithe? Catholics should be more then happy to give this amount because catholics always say that their faith is the most important thing in their life so they should be more then happy to oblige.
Do you tithe every week? …or just more hipocracy.
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impalass
Guest
Ryan: You say " because the world was very different two thousand years ago"Because the world was very different two-thousand years ago.
Peace,
Ryan
Thats your logical answer? (lol!)…sooooo getting preganant two thousand years ago at age 11 or 12 was OK! What about having several wives two thousand years ago I guess that would also be OK!
I don’t have to see things to believe them. I can’t see the electricity running through the wires in the wall, but I know its there. But things have to make sense and this whole Jesus birth story that was copied from other previous beliefs and cultures (Egyptian) … centuries before does not make sense to me. Google…egyptian virgin birth…and read about the close similarities of christianity that followed centures later.
The christian culture did not really start to get going until the early 3rd century. Prior to that a lot of christian pagan beliefs that are still practiced today.
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ryanoneil
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You are free to believe whatever you want. I never said any of that was OK, but I’m not going to invalitate all of human history that came before us because they didn’t act like our modern western culture of the last century or so.
I’m sure you realize that we are unique in our specific marriage practices compaired to all the rest of human history.
I don’t have to see things to believe them either. Why should the other virgin birth stories bother me?
That is because the 1st century Christians couldn’t be forced to revert to Judaism or give into pagan Rome.
Their friends and families scorned them. Their social standing, possessions, and political privileges were stolen from them by both Jews and Romans. They were persecuted, imprisoned, whipped, tortured, exiled, crucified, eaten by lions, and cut to pieces by gladiators.
If there wasn’t a strong 1st century Christian culture it would have been wiped out. It survived despite the Pagan world trying to convert them. Hence to old saying: If you can’t beat them, join them. Why should any of this bother me?
Every culture that has adopted Christianity, and incorporated it into their culture, has brought their beliefs with them. Beside, there are plenty of pagan beliefs practiced today that have nothing to do with Christianity. What can I do about it? It’s their life and I can’t force them to believe as I do. I can only tell them what I believe, and hope they believe the same.
Peace,
Ryan
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impalass
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Hey Ryan:You are free to believe whatever you want. I never said any of that was OK, but I’m not going to invalitate all of human history that came before us because they didn’t act like our modern western culture of the last century or so.
I’m sure you realize that we are unique in our specific marriage practices compaired to all the rest of human history.
I don’t have to see things to believe them either. Why should the other virgin birth stories bother me?
That is because the 1st century Christians couldn’t be forced to revert to Judaism or give into pagan Rome.
Their friends and families scorned them. Their social standing, possessions, and political privileges were stolen from them by both Jews and Romans. They were persecuted, imprisoned, whipped, tortured, exiled, crucified, eaten by lions, and cut to pieces by gladiators.
If there wasn’t a strong 1st century Christian culture it would have been wiped out. It survived despite the Pagan world trying to convert them. Hence to old saying: If you can’t beat them, join them. Why should any of this bother me?
Every culture that has adopted Christianity, and incorporated it into their culture, has brought their beliefs with them. Beside, there are plenty of pagan beliefs practiced today that have nothing to do with Christianity. What can I do about it? It’s their life and I can’t force them to believe as I do. I can only tell them what I believe, and hope they believe the same.
Peace,
Ryan
You say “every culture that has adopted Christianity and incorporated it into their culture, has brought their beliefs with them” By the most part that is probably true. Most believers of ANY FAITH are so because their families indoctrinated them into a particular faith at a very early eage. Your parents taught you catholicism. Example: If you Ryan were born to a jewish family next door to where you grew up you might have a strong belief to convert someone to Judism and denounce Jesus as the son of God. By only luck of the draw you were born into a christian family.
I’m a lapsed catholic (like most today) no secret there, but I do believe that God created ALL of us equally. God created and loves everyone. We were all taught that, remember? Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc etc…were.all equal. Catholic priests might not agree but they are part of the problem of not bringing people together. They want to bring catholics together but not humanity. We all breathe the same air, we all take up the same space. We all have the same goals and desires. If only we could put our differences aside and try and figure out what are similarities are…what a much better world this would be. If people would stop being so self righteous that our way is right and others are wrong (all faiths do this) we could create a world that could rid us of so much hatred. Example: The catholic church will bring catholics together, but the most important thing is to bring PEOPLE together. Religions will never bend to make the WHOLE world a better place, and that is SAD!
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ryanoneil
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I pretty much agree. It’s hard for people when some religions are completely opposite. They think: how can both these religions be true when they are opposite? There is no easy answer. It is human nature for people to want to bring people together by saying everyone should believe what I do.
There is alot of good dialog between religions though, and they are not being jerks about it. It is also acceptable to agree to disagree and still work together for common interests. I’m glad for that.
Peace,
Ryan
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Charlie_Zeaiter
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God knew what Judas would do and used it to be a part of His plan. Without Judas, I’m confident God can still see His plan through in some other way. :twocents:
It’s not unbelievable to think God can carry you across the stormy rivers of life. Sorry, mate; I can’t explain what was going through the minds of people a thousand years ago. I don’t know why they believed in such legends. But if they believe that God can support you across a river, and we believe that God can support you across a river, then we have the basic faith in common, regardless if our knowledge of history differs.
Personally, I’ve never heard of limbo until Benedict XVI came into papal office, but I won’t blame early church teachers for asking questions and looking for answers. And it really doesn’t bother me that our previous popes were hopeless at science. Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:16 describe the lunar eclipse that took place at the crucifixion was the moon turning into blood.
Firslty, that’s not fair. Organised religions also provided the platforms for the best charity organisations, hospitals, and schools in the world.
Secondly, how much I donate to my church is none of your business.
*You know, I find it strange how you can be critical of the church for raking in billions of dollars, but in the same post you are critical that we may not “tithe” enough.
I guess there is no pleasing you. *
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impalass
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You say “how much I donate to my church is none of your business”…correct! Its the church that asks for people to tithe. Take up the issue with the catholic church. Its their statement about being a good catholic and titheing, not mine.God knew what Judas would do and used it to be a part of His plan. Without Judas, I’m confident God can still see His plan through in some other way. :twocents:
It’s not unbelievable to think God can carry you across the stormy rivers of life. Sorry, mate; I can’t explain what was going through the minds of people a thousand years ago. I don’t know why they believed in such legends. But if they believe that God can support you across a river, and we believe that God can support you across a river, then we have the basic faith in common, regardless if our knowledge of history differs.
Personally, I’ve never heard of limbo until Benedict XVI came into papal office, but I won’t blame early church teachers for asking questions and looking for answers. And it really doesn’t bother me that our previous popes were hopeless at science. Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:16 describe the lunar eclipse that took place at the crucifixion was the moon turning into blood.
Firslty, that’s not fair. Organised religions also provided the platforms for the best charity organisations, hospitals, and schools in the world.
Secondly, how much I donate to my church is none of your business.
*You know, I find it strange how you can be critical of the church for raking in billions of dollars, but in the same post you are critical that we may not “tithe” enough.
You never heard of Limbo? I am 58 years old and probably in grade 1 the nuns in our school drilled it into us. The parish priest on his visits to our classrooms talked about it. My parents taught us also. NEVER did anyone ever say it was a theory. It was common teachings at least in the 50s & 60s when I was growing up.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
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emphasis mine]
No, thanks. I have no issue with the catholic church.
That’s right; I’ve never heard of Limbo and I went to a catholic school as well. I am about 20 years younger than you, and it looks like alot has changed in 20 years. In grade 1, my teachers and nuns taughts us that sharing is caring, and limbo was a party dance. I’m glad that alot has changed in 20 years. But one thing still remains true all this time; Jesus really is the Son of God.
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impalass
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I started grade 1 in september 1956. My teacher was Sister Marceline. She was a tyrant. She dressed in the old black and white traditional habit (popular back in the day) had a tall white cardboard type headress, and the large white bib that went from her neck down to her middriff. Black bulky dress that went down to the floor over her black hard covered shoes. Nuns of the day dressed as being oppressed. You couldn’t see their hair, ears, breasts, legs etc. they were all covered up. Very large wooden rosary hanging from her side with beads that jingled as she walked. She walked around the classroom with a wooden pointer and if you did something you weren’t suppose to do she let you have it! She also gave the strap. A hard leather type device she kept in her drawer and if you talked when you weren’t suppose to or questioned anything she said. 5 hard swats on each hand. Believe me I got the strap a lot right up until grade 8.
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She taught us about Limbo, and again we learned in grade 2. Limbo was one of the places that catholics only were destined to go after death. Heaven, hell, purgatory (holding tank for judegment day) or Limbo for unbaptized babies. We were taught that because babies through no fault of their own (maybe got sick etc then died) had not had original sin washed away like I did at baptism. (so the tradition goes) The parish priest also talked about limbo. Gave us the same story. My mother told my brothers and sisters about limbo. Never once were we told that Limbo is a theory of the catholic church. We were told there was a LIMBO!!
Now Pope Benedict comes out last year ........there is no limbo it was just a church theory. HA HA! So what happened to all the babies that supposedly went to Limbo over the centuries? They never went there! Oh no!. So where did they actually go? ......All the previous Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Nuns and church laity (including my mother & father)and throughout the previous centuries that went to their grave believing in LIMBO. No Limbo.
Early years at school we were all taught about St Christoper. The patron saint that carried baby Jesus across a dangerous river. Exciting story back in the day. Every step Chris took Jesus got heavier with the weight of our sins. I remember this story. About grade 3 or 4. Two years ago. The catholic church quietly removed St Christopher from the patron saints list. Why? Because the church now says there was no St. Christopher from Jesus time in the bible. So Christopher was just folk lore. Oh my god!In grade school we called the priests/nuns by their proper last names. Father Johnson, Father Smith, Sister Ignatious, Sister Marceline etc. Now its all changed. Father Jeramy, Father Mike, Father Bill, Sister Mary, Sister Helen etc. No more formal last names? WOW! Back in the day the priests all drove black cars. Black only! Black chevys, Fords, Volkswagens, Dodges etc. Now today they drive cars of any color they want. When did all this change? Where was I?
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The church is out of touch of most catholics. Next thing priests will be allowed to marry and women will become priests. Most catholics today believe that these options should be available. The church does not like catholics disagreeing with them, they like the CONTROL! but.......not much they can do. Over 75% of catholics practice a form of birth control that the church objects to. Most catholics have sex before marriage, the church doesn't like that. Times are a changin!
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The_GreyPilgrim
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Jesus showed he was God by:
Forgiving sins-Only God can forgive sins.
The healing miracles He performed.
Jesus Himself said “I AM Lord of the Sabbath.” Thus indentifying Himself with God.
By His free choice He gave Himself up on the altar of the cross for the sins of teh world:
No human being could have taken the weight of the worlds sin and freely choose to endure what Jesus endured. Any human would’ve balked at this. Only God could do this and He did.
Forgiving sins-Only God can forgive sins.
The healing miracles He performed.
Jesus Himself said “I AM Lord of the Sabbath.” Thus indentifying Himself with God.
By His free choice He gave Himself up on the altar of the cross for the sins of teh world:
No human being could have taken the weight of the worlds sin and freely choose to endure what Jesus endured. Any human would’ve balked at this. Only God could do this and He did.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
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Too funny. It reminds me of those old movies - “The Blues Brothers” comes to mind. Seriously, that was a fascinating read - even though I appreciate that you were scared to death - sorry about that. In those days, kids were scared of nuns. Nowadays, kids are scared of terrorism or global warming. I’m sorry the Catholic Church didn’t impress you.
Once again, I’ve never heard of Limbo. I can’t offer any thoughts on that.
We can’t undo legends. No media, no internet in those days. Crazy stories would have lasted for generations.
I wouldn’t worry about it.
A married man can become a priest. It’s just not encouraged. And a woman will never become priest because a woman can not be a Groom to the Church. The day a woman becomes a priest is the day the Church stops being Catholic and starts being Protestant.
Probably the same 75% of catholics who don’t go to Mass every week.
I’ve seen this analogy; If you go out into the rain and get drenched, you’ll know the rain is wet. But if you stay inside, guess what? The rain is still wet. Similarly, the Church is always Holy. If you are good or bad Catholic, the Church is still Holy, regardless of it’s members.
That’s too bad. I like Elvis.
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impalass
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You know times are always changing…not always for the better. But what is most important is we strive to do whats right. Because we are human, we often get on the wrong path. I guess life is only what you or I make it.
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planten
Guest
There has been quite an interesting dialogue between charles and impalass. How the children are trained (hammered) into Catholicism !
The topic is “Did Jesus Really Son of God/God or The Prophet”. We Muslims believe that Jesus was a man of God i.e. a prophet of God. That is in the Quran and in the bible too. That is the real status of Jesus.
In the bible, Jesus and some other persons may be referred as sons or children of God. Every one knows that is only metaphorical. Even the christians may not be believing that Jesus is a real son of God as we have sons and daughters.
People in his time knew Jesus as a prophet. If we say that Jesus is God too then it creates unnecessary problems and religion should be kept away from all problems. It should be very simple in simple words. If Jesus is a God then there is another God that is the Father God and then the son God. That makes two gods.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
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Hi planten,
There is a bit of truth in what you say. Jesus as the Son of God does not mean that it is a parent and child relationship as we know it. But rather, Jesus is the Son because He is in likeness to Allah (or as we call him, Yahweh) - they love with the same will and know with the same intellect. They possess the same divine nature (and so too does the Holy Spirit).
I realise that the Trinity is difficult to understand.
P.S. It was wrong of you to say that we are “hammered” into Catholicism. I have put so much time into studying Catholicism at my own free will.
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Angelos
Guest
PLANTED said:
The topic is “Did Jesus Really Son of God/God or The Prophet”. We Muslims believe that Jesus was a man of God i.e. a prophet of God. That is in the Quran and in the bible too. That is the real status of Jesus.
In the bible, Jesus and some other persons may be referred as sons or children of God. Every one knows that is only metaphorical. Even the christians may not be believing that Jesus is a real son of God as we have sons and daughters.
ANGELOS responded:
It seems that you have never studied Christianity from a purely Christian perspective. Your simple and depthless comments about Jesus’ divinity and the meaning of the title “Son of God” illustrate you are so new to these discussions. It is also uncanny that you do ascribe the term “Son of God” to Jesus metaphorically. The Koran never calls any of the angels or messengers “sons of God” even in a metaphorical sence. Besides, read John’s Gospel chapter 1 in order to comprehend what Christians mean when they call Jesus “the Son of God”.
Peace,
Angelos N. B.
The topic is “Did Jesus Really Son of God/God or The Prophet”. We Muslims believe that Jesus was a man of God i.e. a prophet of God. That is in the Quran and in the bible too. That is the real status of Jesus.
In the bible, Jesus and some other persons may be referred as sons or children of God. Every one knows that is only metaphorical. Even the christians may not be believing that Jesus is a real son of God as we have sons and daughters.
ANGELOS responded:
It seems that you have never studied Christianity from a purely Christian perspective. Your simple and depthless comments about Jesus’ divinity and the meaning of the title “Son of God” illustrate you are so new to these discussions. It is also uncanny that you do ascribe the term “Son of God” to Jesus metaphorically. The Koran never calls any of the angels or messengers “sons of God” even in a metaphorical sence. Besides, read John’s Gospel chapter 1 in order to comprehend what Christians mean when they call Jesus “the Son of God”.
People in Jesus’ time knew Jesus as a prophet in addition to His divine attributes. They also knew Him as the Savior, the Christ, the King, the Lord, the Master, the Shepherd, the Bridegroom, etc. However, people in Jesus’ time never believed Him to be only a prophet! Such an erroneous belief appeared six centuries after the foundation of Christ’s church. Be sure that even some *apocryphal *books/Gospels/epistles written in the 2nd century repeated the traditional and firm belief that Jesus had divine personality.
Peace,
Angelos N. B.
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impalass
Guest
Jesus the Son of God…the bible gives confusing information about Jesus. You say the people of the day knew Jesus as having divine attritbutes, and we all read the story when Jesus was born he was known to all as the Messiah, dozens of new born babies killed (why would god allow that?) doesn’t make sense, and all the visible miracles he supposedly performed. Brought Lazerous back to life, changed water into wine at the wedding of Cana for hundreds of happy people, fed 5,000 people loaves and fishes. Made a blind man see again. At the crucifixtion where were all these people? There should have been thousands there to support Jesus. Somethings wrong! Even the 12 apostles were in hiding. There’s a great bunch of friends. Somethings wrong with all these stories! If all these stories are true then why did THESE people of the day scream for his crucifixtion, if he did all these good works for all these people? SOMETHING IS TERRIBLY WRONG! Doesn’t make sense. We were all taught the Judas was a bad person for turning Jesus in for 30 pieces of silver. We were also taught that Jesus came to earth to die for our sins. So the curcifixtion was inevitable. Judas did Gods work. Jesus was to die as we were taught and Judas did Gods will, didn’t he? . Judas in my books was a good person. Without Judas how would christianity ever unfolded? The whole Jesus birth to crucifixtion stories don’t make sense. But the catholic church changes all the pieces around to make the story FIT! UNBELIEVABLE!
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Angelos
Guest
Ingratitude and fear are human characteristics! There was no one to prevent Jesus’ death on the cross because He voluntarily went through that suffering and because Jesus’ kingdom was not from this world:
John 18:36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities.But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.”
In the light of these verses, nothing wrong with the crucifixion narrative!
This is such a shallow reasoning and fallacious argument indeed! Do Jews thank Nazis for conducting genocide on them and thus causing them to return to Palestine for the construction of the free state of Israel?
Jesus/God never needed Judas or another betrayer for the redemption of human race, but made use of that betrayal and murder by bringing about good ends from bad means.
Peace,
Angelos N. B.
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impalass
Guest
This is such a shallow reasoning and fallacious argument indeed! Do Jews thank Nazis for conducting genocide on them and thus causing them to return to Palestine for the construction of the free state of Israel?
Jesus/God never needed Judas or another betrayer for the redemption of human race, but made use of that betrayal and murder by bringing about good ends from bad means.
Peace,
Angelos N. B.
Jesus was crucified because the crowd at the time picked him over Barabas…again where were the 12 apostles (his friends) they were in hiding. Why? where was Lazerous, brought back from the dead HOLY COW! why wasn’t he there for Jesus? where were the 5000 people that he gave loaves and fishes to? Wouldn’t they be grateful? Wouldn’t they support Jesus. Where was this former blind man? Jesus spit into the mud and rubbed into his eyes (so the story goes)so he could see again why wouldn’t he be there? Don’t you believe they should have been there to support Jesus. None of them were!..If Jesus had helped you would you have been there to support Jesus? So why did the crown pick Jesus to be crucified. Heresy? …not against the people…there is something wrong with this whole story! Of did this whole story ever happen! Its subject to the believer or non believer…but one thing is for sure…none of it makes any common sense. Helped thousands of people and none there to help…somethings wrong!!
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