Did Jesus Really Son of God/God or The Prophet

[impalass]

Ingratitude and fear are human characteristics! There was no one to prevent Jesus’ death on the cross because He voluntarily went through that suffering and because Jesus’ kingdom was not from this world:

John 18:36 Jesus replied, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my servants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities.But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.”

In the light of these verses, nothing wrong with the crucifixion narrative!

This is such a shallow reasoning and fallacious argument indeed! Do Jews thank Nazis for conducting genocide on them and thus causing them to return to Palestine for the construction of the free state of Israel?

Jesus/God never needed Judas or another betrayer for the redemption of human race, but made use of that betrayal and murder by bringing about good ends from bad means.

Peace,
Angelos N. B.

Your bible quote was My kingdom is not from this world" doesn’t it also say in the bible…Jesus to god the father on the cross…why have thou forsaken me…doesn’t sound like Jesus is very happy that god the father didn’t reach down and save him. Sure sounds that way to me.

 

[Angelos]

Jesus was crucified because the crowd at the time picked him over Barabas…again where were the 12 apostles (his friends) they were in hiding. Why? where was Lazerous, brought back from the dead HOLY COW! why wasn’t he there for Jesus? where were the 5000 people that he gave loaves and fishes to? Wouldn’t they be grateful? Wouldn’t they support Jesus. Where was this former blind man? Jesus spit into the mud and rubbed into his eyes (so the story goes)so he could see again why wouldn’t he be there? Don’t you believe they should have been there to support Jesus. None of them were!..If Jesus had helped you would you have been there to support Jesus? So why did the crown pick Jesus to be crucified. Heresy? …not against the people…there is something wrong with this whole story! Of did this whole story ever happen! Its subject to the believer or non believer…but one thing is for sure…none of it makes any common sense. Helped thousands of people and none there to help…somethings wrong!!

How can you expect all those people to behave heroically when their lives were at stake? What if those people for whom Jesus had wrought wondrous deeds thought that Jesus would make another great miracle to save Himself from death? What if those former followers of Jesus were deeply disappointed with Him due to His betrayal by the one He had chosen, His arres, and His condemnation to death? Even Judas’ betrayal was a good reason for many to forsake Christ. What if the apostles were afraid of death and could not do anything because of their sorrow?

Read what Jesus says in the Gospel about all His followers’ forsaking Him:

Matthew 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, “This night you will all fall away because of me, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered."

Nothing surprising for Jesus whereas every sort of bad surprise for His disciples and followers indeed!

Peace,

Angelos N. B.

 

[Angelos]

Your bible quote was My kingdom is not from this world" doesn’t it also say in the bible…Jesus to god the father on the cross…why have thou forsaken me…doesn’t sound like Jesus is very happy that god the father didn’t reach down and save him. Sure sounds that way to me.

You misread and misinterpret a very important verse in the Gospel. Jesus cries out to God indeed, but such an act is associated with the fulfillment of a prophecy in the Psalms. Those words were by no means Jesus’ personal utterance, only the introductory sentence of a suffering man in Psalm 22. Jesus only sympathized Himself with that suffering servant of God in order to illustrate that His crucifixion had been planned by God and that His suffering was real.

P.S.: I think we should stop deviating from the main topic of this thread and stick to the question put forward by a Muslim believer

Peace,
Angelos N. B.

 

[impalass]

You misread and misinterpret a very important verse in the Gospel. Jesus cries out to God indeed, but such an act is associated with the fulfillment of a prophecy in the Psalms. Those words were by no means Jesus’ personal utterance, only the introductory sentence of a suffering man in Psalm 22. Jesus only sympathized Himself with that suffering servant of God in order to illustrate that His crucifixion had been planned by God and that His suffering was real.

P.S.: I think we should stop deviating from the main topic of this thread and stick to the question put forward by a Muslim believer

Peace,
Angelos N. B.

  I really didn't want to get caught up in quoting from the bible.  100 catholics/protestants  picked at random might interpret things 20 different ways from one extreme to the other.

  Someone born into the catholic family tradition is more then likely going to believe or interpret things differently  then someone who at the age of reason decides for themselves what they consider to be right about  "is Jesus the son of God"   A belief is not a fact.   Though many believe that it is.  There are many contracdictions in the bible, and many young people today have other prioities.   Many today are spiritual but do not want to belong to an organized religion.  I respect people for that view.

  Do I believe that Jesus is the son of God?......Honestly I don't know.  I don't really worry about it.   I was raised a catholic but have my own set of beliefs and values. I know whats right and I know whats wrong.   I don't follow the teachings.   I don't go to church anymore and I don't ever feel guilty of that, nor should I.   Old western christianity is rapidly dying.  Check out church attendance information from France, Germany, Canada,  Ireland, even Italy etc.   In the USA religion is still important to believers but slowly eroding.  Every generation becomes less religiously observant.   The continent of Africa and South & Central America is where the new believers in Jesus are.  As old cardinals die off,  new ones from these areas will fill the void.   I do believe that this will also show up when the current pope dies and the new pope is elected.  He will more then likely come from one of those regions. Within 10 to 15 years a whole new face and direction by the vatican will be in place.  More time and efforts will be directed to other parts of the world where catholicism is rapidly growing and the other western cultures will slowly fade away.  "Gotta go where the action is!    There will never be a pope elected from the USA.   Catholicism in the US is way to liberal for the current vatican.

 

[Angelos]

I really didn’t want to get caught up in quoting from the bible. 100 catholics/protestants picked at random might interpret things 20 different ways from one extreme to the other.

  Someone born into the catholic family tradition is more then likely going to believe or interpret things differently  then someone who at the age of reason decides for themselves what they consider to be right about  "is Jesus the son of God"   A belief is not a fact.   Though many believe that it is.  There are many contracdictions in the bible, and many young people today have other prioities.   Many today are spiritual but do not want to belong to an organized religion.  I respect people for that view.

  Do I believe that Jesus is the son of God?......Honestly I don't know.  I don't really worry about it.   I was raised a catholic but have my own set of beliefs and values. I know whats right and I know whats wrong.   I don't follow the teachings.   I don't go to church anymore and I don't ever feel guilty of that, nor should I.   Old western christianity is rapidly dying.  Check out church attendance information from France, Germany, Canada,  Ireland, even Italy etc.   In the USA religion is still important to believers but slowly eroding.  Every generation becomes less religiously observant.   The continent of Africa and South & Central America is where the new believers in Jesus are.  As old cardinals die off,  new ones from these areas will fill the void.   I do believe that this will also show up when the current pope dies and the new pope is elected.  He will more then likely come from one of those regions. Within 10 to 15 years a whole new face and direction by the vatican will be in place.  More time and efforts will be directed to other parts of the world where catholicism is rapidly growing and the other western cultures will slowly fade away.  "Gotta go where the action is!    There will never be a pope elected from the USA.   Catholicism in the US is way to liberal for the current vatican.

I agree with you that diffferent denominations and sects within Christianity have their peculiar interpretations. I have got many Christian friends who object to the concept of an organized religion like you and stop going to church. I respect every mature and sincere idea. As for the things you state about the Western Church: I hear them from some people in my country too. I belong to the Eastern Church of Christianity.

Thanks for sharing with me your comments honestly and sincerely.

Peace,
Angelos N. B.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Jesus was crucified because the crowd at the time picked him over Barabas…again where were the 12 apostles (his friends) they were in hiding. Why?..

Probably hiding for their lives. Anyway, they were of little faith. Jesus rebuked them a few times for that. They probably lost faith that day and probably didn’t realise that Jesus was the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”.

Anyway, in the end - when they had enough faith, they were there for Jesus, and they died for him. Or, will you suggest that they didn’t die for their faith in the risen Jesus?

where was Lazerous, brought back from the dead HOLY COW! why wasn’t he there for Jesus?..

You’re right. If only Lazarus had logged onto cnn.com that morning; He would have known that Jesus was arrested.

… there is something wrong with this whole story!..

Absolutely. And if it wasn’t foretold by ancient prophets, it would be unbelievable.

But it was foretold in prophecy, which is evidence that God’s plan was unfolding.

… Do I believe that Jesus is the son of God?..Honestly I don’t know…

Well, “I don’t know” is better than “no”.

… I know whats right and I know whats wrong…

So do terrorists - so much that they are willing to kill themselves for what’s right.

But right should be defined by God, not me or you.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

John 1:1-5;

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
[4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
[5] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

And verse 14:
And **the Word became flesh **and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

The Trinity is not some “invention” of the Catholic Church but is in the very words of the bible.

God Almighty is, in His very essence, a Family. He is Family in its perfection: Fatherhood, sonship, and between them the Spirit which is love in its perfection.

This is not polytheism. Because they are still God Almighty. Even though their persons and missions are seperate, their nature is singular. What the Son does He does with the Father and the Spirit. What the Father does He does with the Son and the Spirit. And what the Spirit does He does with the Father and the Son.

Their unity is most explicit in Matthew’s Gospel (28:19):
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in **the name **of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”

The “Name”, not “names”. These are not mere titles but who God truly is.

Jesus is God. The name Jesus-Yeshua-means “God saves.”

I hope this helps.

God bless.

 

[planten]

Hi planten,

There is a bit of truth in what you say. Jesus as the Son of God does not mean that it is a parent and child relationship as we know it. But rather, Jesus is the Son because He is in likeness to Allah (or as we call him, Yahweh) - they love with the same will and know with the same intellect. They possess the same divine nature (and so too does the Holy Spirit).

I realise that the Trinity is difficult to understand.

P.S. It was wrong of you to say that we are “hammered” into Catholicism. I have put so much time into studying Catholicism at my own free will.

**Thanks for your explanation of the word “Son of God”. I would request that you keep on explaining it further. Because your description was brief. It is an important subject. I feel that you have carefully ( May I also say ‘cleverly’) provided a good answer to the problem of the Son of God.

That was a good description as near as it could be. I admire you for that explanation. But may I now ask, from where you have derived that explanation. Your answer should be supported from the book.

Sorry about that “hammering” business. I was reading the posts of both of you friends and I felt like that… Which may not be right… apology from me.
**

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi again planten,

I derived that explanation from a book called Theology for Beginners, by Frank Sheed. That book was recommended to me by some posters here on these forums. I have taken their advice and bought the book. I read it twice. It’s fascinating. I recommend it to you too and to everybody else. It’s a real treasure.

 

[impalass]

Probably hiding for their lives. Anyway, they were of little faith. Jesus rebuked them a few times for that. They probably lost faith that day and probably didn’t realise that Jesus was the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”.

Anyway, in the end - when they had enough faith, they were there for Jesus, and they died for him. Or, will you suggest that they didn’t die for their faith in the risen Jesus?

You’re right. If only Lazarus had logged onto cnn.com that morning; He would have known that Jesus was arrested.

Absolutely. And if it wasn’t foretold by ancient prophets, it would be unbelievable.

But it was foretold in prophecy, which is evidence that God’s plan was unfolding.

Well, “I don’t know” is better than “no”.

So do terrorists - so much that they are willing to kill themselves for what’s right.

But right should be defined by God, not me or you.

What a story teller you are!.   Where do you get all this stuff?  Based on your assumptions.   If I polled 100 catholics they would give me different explanations then yours.   You use the word PROBABLY a lot.   That is not very definitive word.   The truth of the matter is according the bible stories, Jesus  helped a lot of people, and according to the bible stories Jesus didn't quite help them enough for them to believe to  support him in his time of need, but then again it doesn't matter.  We were all taught Jesus came here to die for our sins.  Right?  We were taught that.  So his death was inevitable regardless.   Again I said before without Judas there would be no crucifixtion.  He got the ball rolling.  Right?

The catholic church has sanitized pictures and statues of Jesus. They take away the human (jew) in Jesus. Jesus wore tassels on his hassack, but in catholic pictures you would never see tassels on any of his clothing. Why? Because the catholic church does not want us to see the human Jesus as living like a Jew. I have seen pictures of Jesus with his hands clasped in prayer. Jewish men prayed with their hands behind their backs and chant. The catholic church again sanitizes pictures so we do not have that image of Jesus being a Jew…more brainwashing by the catholic church. I do believe that the church has done an excellent job at doing this, continuing to fool people, and for centuries it has worked. They have done their homework.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

What a story teller you are!. Where do you get all this stuff? Based on your assumptions. If I polled 100 catholics they would give me different explanations then yours. You use the word PROBABLY a lot. That is not very definitive word. The truth of the matter is according the bible stories, Jesus helped a lot of people, and according to the bible stories Jesus didn’t quite help them enough for them to believe to support him in his time of need, but then again it doesn’t matter. We were all taught Jesus came here to die for our sins. Right? We were taught that. So his death was inevitable regardless. Again I said before without Judas there would be no crucifixtion. He got the ball rolling. Right?

The catholic church has sanitized pictures and statues of Jesus. They take away the human (jew) in Jesus. Jesus wore tassels on his hassack, but in catholic pictures you would never see tassels on any of his clothing. Why? Because the catholic church does not want us to see the human Jesus as living like a Jew. I have seen pictures of Jesus with his hands clasped in prayer. Jewish men prayed with their hands behind their backs and chant. The catholic church again sanitizes pictures so we do not have that image of Jesus being a Jew…more brainwashing by the catholic church. I do believe that the church has done an excellent job at doing this, continuing to fool people, and for centuries it has worked. They have done their homework.

If you polled 100 catholics I’m certain that you’ll get only one answer as to why Jesus died. His death was inevitable. That was his mission. And it was foretold by ancient prophets which proves it was divine mission.

But as to why Lazarus didn’t help Jesus at the crucifixion - well, you’ll get 100 different answers because we don’t know why Lazarus didn’t help. That’s why I used “probably” alot.

Quite frankly, it’s irrelevant to our faith. People not helping Jesus doesn’t belittle His mission. It belittles them. And it’s proof that Jesus is Love if He is willing to die for them.

Can I present a challenge to you; If Jesus helped you, would you risk your life in trying to help Him?

Judas did get the ball rolling. But that doesn’t mean that God would fail his mission without Judas. I’m sure there would be other ways to fulfill his mission.

You’re right; We don’t want to see pictures of Jesus living like a Jew. It’s probably (sic) because Jesus came to absolve the old Jewish covenant and give us a new Christian convenant.

A picture tells a thousand words. And those thousand words are even more valuable in ancient days when people were illiterate and couldn’t read a bible. The church leaders had to find a way to teach people that Jesus came to absolve the old Jewish covenant.

But you’re right; We can’t forget our Jewish ancestry. Our Jewish ancestry helps us to define who Jesus is. Did you know that the Jewish Passover is really a story to tell us a Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world? His crucifixion was no co-incidence that it took place during Passover. The timing of the crucifixion is so perfect it must be God’s will.

 

[impalass]

If you polled 100 catholics I’m certain that you’ll get only one answer as to why Jesus died. His death was inevitable. That was his mission. And it was foretold by ancient prophets which proves it was divine mission.

But as to why Lazarus didn’t help Jesus at the crucifixion - well, you’ll get 100 different answers because we don’t know why Lazarus didn’t help. That’s why I used “probably” alot.

Quite frankly, it’s irrelevant to our faith. People not helping Jesus doesn’t belittle His mission. It belittles them. And it’s proof that Jesus is Love if He is willing to die for them.

Can I present a challenge to you; If Jesus helped you, would you risk your life in trying to help Him?

Judas did get the ball rolling. But that doesn’t mean that God would fail his mission without Judas. I’m sure there would be other ways to fulfill his mission.

You’re right; We don’t want to see pictures of Jesus living like a Jew. It’s probably (sic) because Jesus came to absolve the old Jewish covenant and give us a new Christian convenant.

A picture tells a thousand words. And those thousand words are even more valuable in ancient days when people were illiterate and couldn’t read a bible. The church leaders had to find a way to teach people that Jesus came to absolve the old Jewish covenant.

But you’re right; We can’t forget our Jewish ancestry. Our Jewish ancestry helps us to define who Jesus is. Did you know that the Jewish Passover is really a story to tell us a Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world? His crucifixion was no co-incidence that it took place during Passover. The timing of the crucifixion is so perfect it must be God’s will.

 You say:   If Jesus had helped me would I risk my life.  

  I didn't see any risk shown in this  bible story.   Pilot couldn't make up his mind so he asked the crowd.  Who do you want to be crucified........Jesus or Barabas?    There was nothing mentioned that I remember if they picked the wrong guy that they were going to be killed......they were given a choice. Right?   If Jesus had performed a visible miracle to me, why wouldn't I be there to support him?   Why would I scream Jesus name instead of Barabas.  Personally i wouldn't say anything.  Why crucify anyone?  But the angry crowd did.  Why?   

 Ask you the same question.........If Jesus had performed a VISIBLE miracle to you would you not be there to support Jesus?    Why did the crowd want Jesus to be crucified?  What did he do to them personaly?   If I had 12 friends (12 apostles) I would think they would be there to support their friend?  Isn't that what good friends are for?   What was their fear if they screamed Barabas instead?   Or just stood there and said nothing. Who would know in a crowd what you screamed?    Something missing and wrong in this crucifixtion story.   All the stories we learned about Jesus were all good.  He offended no one.  Right? thats what we were taught?  Lazerous story,  water into wine story,  loaves & fishes,  blind man can see again?   So where did this group of angy people against Jesus come from?   If the crowd has screamed Barabas to be crucified then how would christianity have unfolded?   So the whole crucifixtion and the following of christianity hinged on a handful of people  maybe what 50 or a 100 that screamed for Jesus to be crucified?   Christianity all started by the persecution of a handful of people......something is missing in this story......thats alright christianity fit the pieces so they would fit!

 I don't have to see something to believe it.   IT  JUST  HAS  TO  MAKE  SENSE.........this story doesn't!  thats my belief!

 

[fbl9]

You say: If Jesus had helped me would I risk my life.

  I didn't see any risk shown in this  bible story.   Pilot couldn't make up his mind so he asked the crowd.  Who do you want to be crucified........Jesus or Barabas?    There was nothing mentioned that I remember if they picked the wrong guy that they were going to be killed......they were given a choice. Right?   If Jesus had performed a visible miracle to me, why wouldn't I be there to support him?   Why would I scream Jesus name instead of Barabas.  Personally i wouldn't say anything.  Why crucify anyone?  But the angry crowd did.  Why?   

 Ask you the same question.........If Jesus had performed a VISIBLE miracle to you would you not be there to support Jesus?    Why did the crowd want Jesus to be crucified?  What did he do to them personaly?   If I had 12 friends (12 apostles) I would think they would be there to support their friend?  Isn't that what good friends are for?   What was their fear if they screamed Barabas instead?   Or just stood there and said nothing. Who would know in a crowd what you screamed?    Something missing and wrong in this crucifixtion story.   All the stories we learned about Jesus were all good.  He offended no one.  Right? thats what we were taught?  Lazerous story,  water into wine story,  loaves & fishes,  blind man can see again?   So where did this group of angy people against Jesus come from?   If the crowd has screamed Barabas to be crucified then how would christianity have unfolded?   So the whole crucifixtion and the following of christianity hinged on a handful of people  maybe what 50 or a 100 that screamed for Jesus to be crucified?   Christianity all started by the persecution of a handful of people......something is missing in this story......thats alright christianity fit the pieces so they would fit!

 I don't have to see something to believe it.   IT  JUST  HAS  TO  MAKE  SENSE.........this story doesn't!  thats my belief!

Pilate knew some of the mircles of Jesus,he also knew of the power of the hieracrhry of the temple.Pliate had no intention of crucifying Jesus.he gave the choice as he had the two before him for the people to choose from.the crowd choose Jesus becuase the crowd was incited by the temple hieracrhry. to be banished from the temple in those days was close to having leporsy.there would be alms given to one who was cast out of the temple.Christianity was not started by persecution but by the sins of the world.and it wasn’t until after Christ’s acension into heaven that the advocate came to enpower Jeus’s followers.if one was to have lived under a brutal dictatorship it would easier to understand the followers of Jesus lack of courage.

 

[impalass]

Pilate knew some of the mircles of Jesus,he also knew of the power of the hieracrhry of the temple.Pliate had no intention of crucifying Jesus.he gave the choice as he had the two before him for the people to choose from.the crowd choose Jesus becuase the crowd was incited by the temple hieracrhry. to be banished from the temple in those days was close to having leporsy.there would be alms given to one who was cast out of the temple.Christianity was not started by persecution but by the sins of the world.and it wasn’t until after Christ’s acension into heaven that the advocate came to enpower Jeus’s followers.if one was to have lived under a brutal dictatorship it would easier to understand the followers of Jesus lack of courage.

I see the story differently then you…Why was the crowd there in the first place?..We don’t know. If they had picked Barabas what would have happened? Was it inevitable that Jesus would have died some other way? I am an individual and I don’t buy into these stories…maybe that was Gods will working. We have all been taught that God has a divine plan. People pray millions of prayers everyday trying to change the course of history and Gods plan. People pray for a new car, they pray for a sunny day on their wedding day, they pray to be free from sickness, farmers pray for rain, towns pray that a tornado coming will miss their town (but hit someone else) we pray for other people. How many prayers are enough? 10, 100, 1000. What prayers are better then others? If more people pray for me or you will that help more Are numbers important. When someone says their prayers are answered its a miracle. when they aren’t answered its Gods will…people can’t lose… If prayers were really answered we would see that catholics live much longer then others. We all know people say they prayed and they were relieved of thier illness or sickness. It wasn’t the doctor it was a miracle. I have heard people say this. Maybe we should just throw away all medications and get rid of the doctors and just pray for everything. All these prayers should show up in the numbers. But it doesn’t generally speaking on a level playing field I don’t see where catholics live longer then others or are afflicted by illness any differently and cure rates of sickness the same as the general population…Now most devout catholics would probably believe that when Muslims, Jews, Hindus pray they are wasting their time. They don’t believe in Jesus. again generally speaking no one has an edge. Its all false hopes and wishful thinking…Prayers relax people they give them a sense of security…just like a child with a teddy bear or a security blanket. I never pray. I figure things out myself. If it doesn’t work then it wasn’t meant to be…I am not going to pray to try and change Gods divine plan.

Do you believe when a catholic says their prayers are answered, do you believe that? If a Muslim says his prayers were answered…what do you say to that?

Ethnic people are the big believers in prayer. Its a family catholic tradition.

Recently I was talking to a couple friends and I asked them if they believed that some evangelists can actually heal people through God…we have all seen these tv shows. Even Billy Graham says he talks to God every day. Millions of followers. I have never heard the Pope say he talks to God. So why Billy Graham? These two friends are catholics (strong believers) they laughed and said these religious guys/women are all bogus it doesn’t work. But when I asked them about catholics going to Lourdes or Fatima and getting healed…Oh ya that happens they say…and they are not kidding. There are thousands of crutches at Lourdes and Fatima that people have thrown away because they claim they have been healed of leg ailments etc. Interesting. Not one prostheisis there. Not one person ever had a leg grow back, or an arm or disfigurement repaired from sickness. I guess God only heals ailments that we can’t visibly see. I guess those people are privledged. My friends thought for a minute and said your right! What are we believing?

 

[fbl9]

myself i won’t say all the Billy Graham types of healings are bogus.there are some that are actually proved to be miracles.i do believe in miracles. some times what i want and what the good Lord gives me are two different things.does this mean God doesn’t hear my prayers?not…Jesus never promised us an easy life in Him.i accept what ever comes my way as the way it is supposed to happen.no pain no gain,through hardships one can use these times to deepen one’s faith or quit believing which ever one wants.we are not forced to believe it is free will that is surrendered to God,this is the esence of faith.

 

[MHalsey]

What a story teller you are!. Where do you get all this stuff? Based on your assumptions. If I polled 100 catholics they would give me different explanations then yours. You use the word PROBABLY a lot. That is not very definitive word. The truth of the matter is according the bible stories, Jesus helped a lot of people, and according to the bible stories Jesus didn’t quite help them enough for them to believe to support him in his time of need, but then again it doesn’t matter. We were all taught Jesus came here to die for our sins. Right? We were taught that. So his death was inevitable regardless. Again I said before without Judas there would be no crucifixtion. He got the ball rolling. Right?

Jesus also angered a lot of people. The following is from John ch. 6.

49 Your fathers ate manna in the desert and they are dead;
50 but this is the bread which comes down from heaven, so that a person may eat it and not die.
51 I am the living bread which has come down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live for ever; and the bread that I shall give is my flesh, for the life of the world.’
52 Then the Jews started arguing among themselves, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’
53 Jesus replied to them: In all truth I tell you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Anyone who does eat my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise that person up on the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in that person.
57 As the living Father sent me and I draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will also draw life from me.
58 This is the bread which has come down from heaven; it is not like the bread our ancestors ate: they are dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live for ever.
59 This is what he taught at Capernaum in the synagogue.
60 After hearing it, many of his followers said, 'This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?'
61 Jesus was aware that his followers were complaining about it and said, 'Does this disturb you?
62 What if you should see the Son of man ascend to where he was before?
63 'It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
64 ‘But there are some of you who do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the outset who did not believe and who was to betray him.
65 He went on, ‘This is why I told you that no one could come to me except by the gift of the Father.’
66 After this, many of his disciples went away and accompanied him no more.

This happened right after the miracle of the loaves and fish. The point being, just because people witness a miracle doesn’t mean they are going to follow Jesus.

As for Judas, he had a choice just as Mary had a choice. She could have refused to be the Mother of God, but she didn’t. Judas made a choice. He chose to betray the Lord. God did not force him.

The catholic church has sanitized pictures and statues of Jesus. They take away the human (jew) in Jesus. Jesus wore tassels on his hassack, but in catholic pictures you would never see tassels on any of his clothing. Why? Because the catholic church does not want us to see the human Jesus as living like a Jew. I have seen pictures of Jesus with his hands clasped in prayer. Jewish men prayed with their hands behind their backs and chant. The catholic church again sanitizes pictures so we do not have that image of Jesus being a Jew…more brainwashing by the catholic church. I do believe that the church has done an excellent job at doing this, continuing to fool people, and for centuries it has worked. They have done their homework.

I see many graphic crucifixes in Catholic Churches as well.

 

[impalass]

Jesus also angered a lot of people. The following is from John ch. 6.

This happened right after the miracle of the loaves and fish. The point being, just because people witness a miracle doesn’t mean they are going to follow Jesus.

As for Judas, he had a choice just as Mary had a choice. She could have refused to be the Mother of God, but she didn’t. Judas made a choice. He chose to betray the Lord. God did not force him.

I see many graphic crucifixes in Catholic Churches as well.

#54, #55, #56…very pagonistic to me. Just like I don’t believe that a priest performs a miracle at every mass literally turning wine into blood and bread into body (flesh). It still looks like wine and the bread still looks and tastes like bread. If it changes literally as the church claims, I don’t see it. I know what blood looks like and so do you. But you just keep playing that game in your head and follow along…whatever they say is right to you.I recently read a survey about that and over 40% of catholics do not believe that happens. Thats a lot of catholics. I am in that 40%…Its not really an issue for me. I don’t go to church anymore like most catholics. I am lapsed. Thats all part of whether you believe Jesus is the son of God. Not me and I was raised a catholic. I am very happy with my life. I do believe there is a higher power or force, but does not affect our daily lives. Not with 30,000 children that starve to death every day on earth. No loving God would allow innocent children to be born to starve to death at an early age…Sad Sad! But you just forget about that and keep on truckin with the church.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

#54, #55, #56…very pagonistic to me. Just like I don’t believe that a priest performs a miracle at every mass literally turning wine into blood and bread into body (flesh). It still looks like wine and the bread still looks and tastes like bread. If it changes literally as the church claims, I don’t see it. I know what blood looks like and so do you. But you just keep playing that game in your head and follow along…whatever they say is right to you.I recently read a survey about that and over 40% of catholics do not believe that happens. Thats a lot of catholics. I am in that 40%…Its not really an issue for me. I don’t go to church anymore like most catholics. I am lapsed. Thats all part of whether you believe Jesus is the son of God. Not me and I was raised a catholic. I am very happy with my life. I do believe there is a higher power or force, but does not affect our daily lives. Not with 30,000 children that starve to death every day on earth. No loving God would allow innocent children to be born to starve to death at an early age…Sad Sad! But you just forget about that and keep on truckin with the church.

One: It is God who performs the miracle through the priest. It happens no matter what level of holiness is within the one presiding. The priest asks in the name of Christ and He returns an answer of yes.

Two: Like Paul says, “We walk by faith and not by sight.” The Eucharist is a matter of faith. You must believe that it is His Body and Blood because Jesus said so. And if it isn’t then He is lying. And if His Word is not Truth then we’re all in serious trouble.
I go to every Mass believing that when I am there I am not only in the presence of God and us believers here on earth but with every person who is in the Body of Christ is there with me; most especially when the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins. I believe that that altar is His throne as well as the table of that heavenly banquet in which He gives us that spiritual food that we need for our journey home.

As far as the matter of evil-“30,000 children staving to death”-that kind of evil is The Problem. It is horrible. I do what I can and leave the rest in His hands. It is my most fervent hope and prayer that those poor children have by His grace been taken into His kingdom for what they suffered. He is their God too.

Please believe what both Jesus and the Church says about God Almighty-no other denomination or religion has the fullness of truth like the Catholic Church does.

My prayers are with you!

God bless.

 

[planten]

myself i won’t say all the Billy Graham types of healings are bogus.there are some that are actually proved to be miracles.i do believe in miracles. some times what i want and what the good Lord gives me are two different things.does this mean God doesn’t hear my prayers?not…Jesus never promised us an easy life in Him.i accept what ever comes my way as the way it is supposed to happen.no pain no gain,through hardships one can use these times to deepen one’s faith or quit believing which ever one wants.we are not forced to believe it is free will that is surrendered to God,this is the esence of faith.

** Right, good post. Prayer is a must and only the one who believes in a God will pray. Atheist need not pray. For prayer it is necessary that one should have faith, absolute faith in God Almighty. There should be no doubt in the minds too that God hears and answers.

God had been hearing and speaking for a long time in the past. He talked to Abraham through some agency. He talked to Moses too. He talked to Jesus and as a Muslim I believe that God talked to Muhammad and revealed the whole of Quran. (Of course the christians are not required to believe that if they do not want to).

God has been hearing and talking. These are his attributes that He is a Hearing and speaking God. None of his attributes can become invalid or useless, in-operative. He is still hearing and speaking. When any one prays and calls God (Allah or Yehwah), he hears the prayer and replies or accepts the prayer.

But ist is not always necessary that God should do what we like all the time. He is not our servant or slave. He works by His own plans and knows the one who deserves to be helped. The constancy in prayer is also necessary. One should not get fed up get tired in praying.

It is necessary that one should be a believer in God to pray to him. A non believer need not pray to any one.**

 

[tomshaikh]

** Right, good post. Prayer is a must and only the one who believes in a God will pray. Atheist need not pray. For prayer it is necessary that one should have faith, absolute faith in God Almighty. There should be no doubt in the minds too that God hears and answers.

God had been hearing and speaking for a long time in the past. He talked to Abraham through some agency. He talked to Moses too. He talked to Jesus and as a Muslim I believe that God talked to Muhammad and revealed the whole of Quran. (Of course the christians are not required to believe that if they do not want to).

God has been hearing and talking. These are his attributes that He is a Hearing and speaking God. None of his attributes can become invalid or useless, in-operative. He is still hearing and speaking. When any one prays and calls God (Allah or Yehwah), he hears the prayer and replies or accepts the prayer.

But ist is not always necessary that God should do what we like all the time. He is not our servant or slave. He works by His own plans and knows the one who deserves to be helped. The constancy in prayer is also necessary. One should not get fed up get tired in praying.

It is necessary that one should be a believer in God to pray to him. A non believer need not pray to any one.**

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Hello Everyone & God Bless You All

I like your post planten. Wish you good luck. How is the title conclusion going on till now guyz. Did you come up with Who is Jesus really was. My vote is towards that he is “One of the Greatest Prophet”