Did Mary die or not?/Assumption

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Many Catholics claim that, because the solemn definition itself does not say whether Mary died or not prior to her Assumption, that we are free to believe whatever we wish concerning her death. This claim is a serious doctrinal error. The non-infallible teachings of the Magisterium are also required beliefs; they require the religious submission of will and intellect, not the full assent of faith, but they do require a type of belief.
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from the related work of Catholic theologian Ronald L. Conte, Jr.

complete blog post (summary of published booklet): The death of the Blessed Virgin Mary
 
Great picture. The eastern orthodox Church has much to offer, especially in art and tradition.

Thanks so much for sharing. I have looked at a web site of a Byz.Church in the Chicago area that had wonderful pictures also.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
Icon - there’s a lot of theology reflected in that imagery - far from a mere picture.

Beautiful and illuminating at the same time.
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I have been told that the face of Jesus started changing after the Byz. Church artists recovered the Shroud of Turin from the Islamists. The Christian art of the face of Jesus seemed to change from that point on from what people guessed at before.
 
Irishgal49 said:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=469

This article does list some interesting things on both side of the debate. It also has some history of where the belief that she didn’t die began.
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Interesting article. Thank you for posting. St. Epiphanius, who is briefly quoted in this article, appears to be the first one to say that it wasn’t known if she died or not (in writing at least). According to the book I quoted earlier, St. Epiphanius went on to speculate that the Blessed Virgin could have died an unnatural death (ie. martyred). This would certainly would solve the problem of her dying a natural death in light of her sinlessness. However, I am of the opinion that it is very unlikely that if the Blessed Virgin had been martyred that it would not have been handed down in tradition. Still, I have to say that until I read the comment by St. Epiphanius, the thought had never entered my mind.
 
Irishgal49 said:
That is not true. I asked my priest.
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This then is the nucleus of our faith in the Assumption: we believe that Mary, like Christ her Son, overcame death and is already triumphant in heavenly glory, in the totality of her being, “in body and soul”.
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HOLY MASS ON THE SOLEMNITY
OF THE ASSUMPTION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

St Thomas of Villanova Parish, Castel Gandolfo
Sunday, 15 August 2010
 
ByzCathCantor said:
HOLY MASS ON THE SOLEMNITY
OF THE ASSUMPTION OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

St Thomas of Villanova Parish, Castel Gandolfo
Sunday, 15 August 2010
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She could have overcame death by never dying. Why Elijah? What was his not dying demonstrating? What about Enoch who was “translated” but never tasted death? It’s possible, it’s very possible. She certainly outranks them. Why would they not die and she who never sinned die? That would make no sense.
 
Irishgal49 said:
She could have overcame death by never dying. Why Elijah? What was his not dying demonstrating? What about Enoch who was “translated” but never tasted death? It’s possible, it’s very possible. She certainly outranks them. Why would they not die and she who never sinned die? That would make no sense.
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How are you so certain that Elijah and Enoch did not die?

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:13[/BIBLEDRB]

Why would the mother not suffer death when the Son, surely greater, did in fact suffer it? That would make no sense.

And BTW - we are still bound to accept non-infallible magisterial teachings, albeit via loyal submission of will and intellect.

If not, then our faith would be reduced to believe in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption alone.
 
OK, since the dogmatic statement remains largely ignored here, let’s break it down …
  1. That privilege has shone forth in new radiance since our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX, solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the loving Mother of God’s Immaculate Conception. These two privileges are most closely bound to one another. Christ overcame sin and death by his own death, and one who through Baptism has been born again in a supernatural way has conquered sin and death through the same Christ. Yet, according to the general rule, God does not will to grant to the just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul.
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  1. Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body.
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  1. Christ’s faithful, through the teaching and the leadership of their pastors, have learned from the sacred books that the Virgin Mary, throughout the course of her earthly pilgrimage, led a life troubled by cares, hardships, and sorrows, and that, moreover, what the holy old man Simeon had foretold actually came to pass, that is, that a terribly sharp sword pierced her heart as she stood under the cross of her divine Son, our Redeemer. In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life.
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  1. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: “Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.”
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  1. Thus St. John Damascene, an outstanding herald of this traditional truth, spoke out with powerful eloquence when he compared the bodily Assumption of the loving Mother of God with her other prerogatives and privileges. “It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death …”
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  1. These words of St. John Damascene agree perfectly with what others have taught on this same subject.
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ByzCathCantor said:
How are you so certain that Elijah and Enoch did not die?

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:13[/BIBLEDRB]

Why would the mother not suffer death when the Son, surely greater, did in fact suffer it? That would make no sense.

And BTW - we are still bound to accept non-infallible magisterial teachings, albeit via loyal submission of will and intellect.

If not, then our faith would be reduced to believe in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption alone.
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Ok for the 25th time Jesus had a REASON to suffer death. He certainly did not have to …but chose to do so. He said himself, “No man takes my life but I lay it down willingly” He had a purpose, a reason to die. Surely He loved His own Mother enough to spare a sinless woman from death. Remember there was no death until sin entered the picture. She did not have the stain of original sin and she never sinned, so therefore, her own Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity would have saved her from death.

If Elijah and Enoch (and possibly Moses) merited being saved from death, how much more the Mother of God.

OFF TOPIC FOR A SECOND:
I hear comments on the Byzantine Church…I have one nearby. The icons are totally breathtaking and I loved visiting there. It is truly a beautiful church. I often wondered if a Roman rite Catholic could get married in a Byzantine Church. It’s just so beautiful. Our churches around here all look like big gymnasiums with a couple statues tossed in.
 
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