Did Mary Die?

[maryj]

I believe the story is that Mary died and when the Apostles went to bury her, her body was gone. The early Church always assumed, that the angels took up to Heaven body and soul.

Not according to St. Gregory of Tours. In the Eight Books of Miracles(575-593), Gregory writes: The course of this life having been completed by the Blessed Mary, when now she would be called from this world, all the Apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard she was about to be taken from this world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with His angels, and taking her soul, He gave it over to the Angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise.( Eight books of miracles,1,4; jurgens,vol3,#2288a)

 

[Alexius]

Her death was by no means “natural” if by natural you mean that she had to have died since death was a curse from the Covenant. Her death was actually a grace from God to more closely unite her to the suffering of her Son since she was preserved from the stain of Original Sin and therefore not under that curse.

I was under the impression that “stain of sin” applied to the corruption Mary would have been born into, but wasn’t. So now I’m told that she doesn’t even inherit physical death? Is she divine, too? Surely she is the New Eve, but she is not a female Messiah. I feel we are getting as close to the border as possible and it’s a dangerous place to be.

The early Church marked the grave of, and honoured the desceased St James the greater [brother, cousin etc of the Lord]. It seems logical therefore, that they would also have paid the same respect to the grave of His blessed Mother.

No doubt she too died. But why they chose to ignore her burial site remains a complete mystery…unless she was not buried…

Of course she died and was buried; her body was assumed into Heaven three days after her soul’s departure. There is a different emphasis in Eastern Christianity on Mary’s departure. That focus is on her “falling asleep” or Dormition, rather than her being bodily assumed to preserve her from mortal decay. Where was she buried before the assumption? Only God and the Apostles know for sure…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Dominic_Brother]

Sorry for re-opening this thread; I’m still trying to understand Mary’s Dormition.

One definition of death is the separation of Body and Soul.

Question for everyone,
If Mary did die, did her Soul separate from her Body?

If so, her Soul must have been reunited with her Body right after death and then “Assummed” Body and Soul into heaven. How else could the Dogma of the Assumption be satisified using the above definition of death?

Or in Mary’s case, maybe it is possible to die where the Soul does not leave the Body. It’s a paradox for me because if the Soul does not leave the Body, you must be alive. How can you be dead?

 

[Alexius]

Sorry for re-opening this thread; I’m still trying to understand Mary’s Dormition.

One definition of death is the separation of Body and Soul.

Question for everyone,
If Mary did die, did her Soul separate from her Body?

If so, her Soul must have been reunited with her Body right after death and then “Assummed” Body and Soul into heaven. How else could the Dogma of the Assumption be satisified using the above definition of death?

Or in Mary’s case, maybe it is possible to die where the Soul does not leave the Body. It’s a paradox for me because if the Soul does not leave the Body, you must be alive. How can you be dead?

Have you ever seen an icon of the Dormition? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Icon_03001_Uspenie_Presvyatoj_Bogorodicy.jpg

In it, you should see the twelve apostles gathered around the Virgin whose soul has left her body. We see a familiar picture of the Virgin holding Christ at the top and in the middle, we see that now Christ is holding his mother (rather her soul) as though she is a child. Apparently, Mary’s body and soul have separated, but Christ and the angels guard them both. At the bottom, we see an apocryphal depiction of a man (I can’t remember his name) getting his fingers cut off by an angel, because he touched the Virgin out of bad intentions. If no one else posts anymore about this, I’ll give a more in depth decription later…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Dominic_Brother]

AS PER POPE PIUS XII
…we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

Hello again, (I feel an obligation to further explain my views on this issue).

For an average person reading the above quote, the message conveyed is that Mary’s body and soul went to heaven concurrently, that is at the same time with no separation. The then question arises, did Pope Pius XII write the Dogma for the average person to understand? But, the above quote does not contradict those who believe Mary’s soul went to heaven first and then re-united with her body afterwards.

However, there is also the possibilty that Mary experienced

1. 
   *]First a separation of her Soul from her Body (physical death)
   *]Then her Soul was united to her Body again (alive)
   *]Body and Soul was then assumed into heaven
   
   (this temporary separtion of body and soul can be loosly defined as “an out of body experience”)
   
   Pope Pius XII was most wise when he wrote this Dogma as it is written.
   
   After having given much thought on this topic, I still favour my original believe that Mary did not suffer a physical death (separartion of body and soul). The Dormition could also mean that body and soul stayed together; asleep as it is often explained.
   
   As I said in an earlier post. The death Mary experienced was a spiritual death, at the foot of the cross. She was separtated from God the Son. I don’t believe Mary was separated from the God the Holy Spirit or God the Father but she was separated from God the Son and she knew it, Jesus was God the Son, her son. On the otherhand, the Apostle John and the others didn’t really know it. John believed when the saw the empty tomb.
   
   Simeon foretold the death of Mary when he said, “A sword will pierce your own soul also” (Luke 2:35). Well, at least for me, this sword caused a death in Mary, it did not just wound her.
   
   In conclusion, I don’t think it really matters if Mary suffered a physical death or not. Her suffering at the cross outweighes any suffering/merit gained from a physical death. For me, Mary had perfect sorrow at the cross, totally one with God the Son, a grief too much to be put into words. Again she did not just lose her Son, it was God the Son she lost.

 

[Alexius]

The reason I believe that Mary physically died, is because this has been the teaching of the east since antiquity. Is it possible that her not physically dying puts her on a higher ground than Christ? For some, it might - and this is a scary thought. I am sure that many do not believe this, but her death shows her true mortality. Again, in the Eastern churches, it is a critical belief that Mary did indeed die. It is unfortunate that the traditions of east and west diverse at this point…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Here’s an interesting historical account of the Assumption -

You might say this is a case of knowing how to keep a secret. The history of the end of Mary’s life was genuinely new to most of the Church when it was made public in the fifth century. The facts of the matter were kept private among the clergy of the Jerusalem Church, and only became public during the Council of Chalcedon. This was a case where there was a Tradition - a passing-along of knowledge - that was intentionally kept private. I personally suspect the remarkable near-silence of Scripture about the Mother of God was deliberate on the part of the Apostles; St John (her guardian) and the rest of the Evangelists kept her privacy.

The more picturesque details of the “transitus Mariae” literature had yet to be developed, but in the mid-400’s some basic information was revealed by the Jerusalem clergy. I’m attaching a quote from the “Euthymiac History” quoted by St John of Damascus, for details.

---

In his second homily on the Dormition of the Mother of God, Saint John of Damascus refers to events recounted in the 40th chapter of the Life of St Euthymios:

It was said above that Saint Pulcheria erected many churches for Christ in Constantinople. One of these is the church in Blachernae, built at the beginning of the reign of the divinely-appointed Emperor Marcian . When the two of them built a worthy house there for the all-glorious and all-holy Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, and adorned it with every sort of decoration, they hoped to find her holy body, which had been the dwelling-place of God. And summoning Juvenal, the Archbishop of Jerusalem, and those bishops from Palestine who were staying in the capital because of the synod then being held in Chalcedon , they said to them: We have heard that the first and most outstanding church of the all-holy Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, is in Jerusalem, in the place called Gethsemane, where her life-giving body was put in a coffin. We now wish to bring this relic here, to protect this royal city."

continued…

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

…continued

Juvenal answered on behalf of them all:

"There is nothing in the holy, inspired Scripture about the death of Mary, the holy Mother of God; but we know from ancient and wholly reliable tradition that at the time she so gloriously fell asleep, all the holy Apostles who were traveling the world for the salvation of the peoples were lifted up in a single instant of time and were gathered at Jerusalem. And as they stood by her, they saw a vision of angels, and heard the divine chanting of the higher powers. So it was that she gave her soul in an ineffable way into God’s hands, surrounded by the glory of God and all heaven.

“Her body, which had been God’s dwelling place, was brought for burial amidst the singing of the angels and the Apostles, and laid to rest in a coffin in Gethsemane; and the angelic dancing and singing continued without pause in that place for three days. But after three days the song of the angels ceased; the Apostles were there, and since one of them - Thomas - had not been present and came at he end of three days, and wished to reverence that body which had housed God, they opened the coffin. And they could not find her body, which had been the object of such praise; all that they found were her burial wrappings. And being overcome by the ineffable fragrance that came out of the wrappings, they closed the coffin again. Amazed by this miraculous discovery, they could only draw a single conclusion: The one who had deigned to become flesh in her own person and to take his humanity from her, the one who willed to be born in human flesh as God the Word, the Lord of glory, and who had preserved her virginity intact even after childbirth, now chose, after her departure from this world, to honour her pure and immaculate body with the gift of incorruptibility, and with a change of state even before the common, universal resurrection.”

When the imperial couple heard this, they asked Archbishop Juvenal to send them the holy coffin, properly sealed, with the funeral garments in it of the glorious, all-holy Mary, Mother of God. And when he had sent it, they placed it in the church of the holy Theotokos that had been built at Blachernae.

 

[Dominic_Brother]

…
When the imperial couple heard this, they asked Archbishop Juvenal to send them the holy coffin, properly sealed, with the funeral garments in it of the glorious, all-holy Mary, Mother of God. And when he had sent it, they placed it in the church of the holy Theotokos that had been built at Blachernae.

Hi Fr Ambrose, many thanks for sharing this information. I will medidate and pray some more.

Question for you, is the original coffin and funeral garments still in existance? Are there pictures of them on the internet somewhere?

 

[Mickey]

I personally suspect the remarkable near-silence of Scripture about the Mother of God was deliberate on the part of the Apostles; St John (her guardian) and the rest of the Evangelists kept her privacy.

Amen. I believe this also.

 

[st_bernard]

Sorry for re-opening this thread; I’m still trying to understand Mary’s Dormition.

One definition of death is the separation of Body and Soul.

Question for everyone,
If Mary did die, did her Soul separate from her Body?

If so, her Soul must have been reunited with her Body right after death and then “Assummed” Body and Soul into heaven. How else could the Dogma of the Assumption be satisified using the above definition of death?

Or in Mary’s case, maybe it is possible to die where the Soul does not leave the Body. It’s a paradox for me because if the Soul does not leave the Body, you must be alive. How can you be dead?

Gratia et pax vobiscum,

In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume:

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” - Sacramentarium Gregorianum

The Dogma of the Assumption does not deny the death of BVM. It merely dogmatizes the fact that she was assumed bodily assuming the spirit had already been assumed of course.

Gratias

 

[Nicene]

I might add, it seems most protestants having not studied this issue in detail automatically assume the Catholic stand is that she was assumed while living. Probably because of the Elijah Enoch connection that is commonly drawn.
Doesn’t it kinda eliminate this comparison if we assume she was assumed deceased?

Not particularly. St Jude writes:

Jud 1:9: But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

What he is here referring to is a book called “The assumption of Moses” According to the book, the corpse of Moses was assumed into heaven. What we do know is that Moses was not was of the “captives in prison” (1 Pet 3:19). He was at the transfiguration, which occurred prior to the passion. He would have had to escape the prison without the help of Christ to be there otherwise.

So yes, she could have experienced death first and been assumed in death. This is what I personally believe occurred.

I know evangelicals have a tough time accepting an apostolic reference to a non canonical book, however there is nothing in the Old Testament to which St. Jude can be referring. Scripture doesn’t check scripture here, according to the evangelical postulation of scriptural interpretation.

Deu 34:4: And the LORD said to him, “This is the land of which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, `I will give it to your descendants.’ I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.”
5: So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD,
6: and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-pe’or; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Dominic_Brother]

Hello ALL,

First of all, let me say that I strongly favour one position over the other. I believe Mary did not experience a physical death at the Assumption. In other words, I am not saying that I am absolutely right.
Below is a very good link on Mary’s death and bodily Assumption. It takes a balanced approach on both sides. It is by Lawrence P. Everett, C.Ss.R., S.T.D.
This article covers the meaning of the dogma of the Assumption, the Assumptionistic Movement, the Magisterial Teaching and belief of the Fathers of the Church.

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=469

After further reflection on this issue, I believe it was quite possible for Mary to have experienced momentary physical death; where the Soul separated from her Body and then returned to it. (an “Out-Of-Body” experience as it can be called). In a technical sense, this is real physical death because the soul separated from the body; but in a practical sense it is not a death because she still lives in the world.

(Lazarus is an example of a type of momentary death, in fact Jesus uses the word asleep which is similar to the word Dormition, See John 11:11 “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.”)

In fact, it would be possible for Mary to have had more than one “Out-Of-Body” experience. To explain why is another complex issue, but to make a long story short, Mary would not be afraid of those who kill the body. See Luke 12:4 “I say to you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.” Did Mary fight devils using this method? I don’t know. I will flip a coin.

SO, I have softened my position just a little bit and will say it was possible for Mary to have died a physical death and at the same time, be Assumed Body and Soul into heaven alive. (This is option 2. below). Options 2 and 3 below are much more favourable scenarios than Option 1 for reasons I gave in previous posts in this thread.

When we ask if Mary died, we are asking about the mechanics of the Assumption, how did it happen? I list 3 scenarios below. If there is another, let me know.

1. Mary died, her soul goes to heaven first, but body stays on earth, her body then reunites with her soul in heaven sometime later.
2. Mary died, soul separates from body, soul re-unites with body on earth, (this is momentary death) afterwards, the body and soul goes to heaven alive. (note, in this case of momentary death Mary could have been alive for several years before she was actually assumed body and soul, which is described as in option 3)
3. Mary does not die, body and soul goes to heaven

 

[Joseph_Smith]

Some one posted this quote:

St. Alphonsus Liguouri, in his masterpiece “Glories of Mary” said that like her Son, she did die despite being sinless. One reason is that God granted her the privilege of following the path her Son took. Likewise, her ardent love for God and her desire to be with God was too strong for her not-yet-glorified body. The same goes for her sorrows due to her great love for her Son and her knowledge of His sufferings. These sorrows would have killed any other human being. St. Alphonsus says it was a great supernatural miracle to keep her alive for for every moment she lived.

I can answer that for you, yes she died and i bet that they even burried her in a tomb. Also Mary was a sinner or she would not have died. Sin leads to death. You know Jesus saved the sinners not the sinless. And Jesus wants Mary in heaven with him does he not. Mary was one of the very first converts to Christianity. Now as the bible states all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Of course God is not speaking of himself because he is spirit and he is speaking of mankind. The holy spirit never boast of himself. He does bear witness of Christ. As the holy spirit gives the scripture if you claim that Mary is not a sinner you are calling the Holy Spirit a lier. So you might want to think about that. Because sinning against him is not forgiven.

 

[Church_Militant]

I can answer that for you, yes she died and i bet that they even burried her in a tomb.

Also Mary was a sinner or she would not have died. Sin leads to death. You know Jesus saved the sinners not the sinless. …As the holy spirit gives the scripture if you claim that Mary is not a sinner you are calling the Holy Spirit a lier. So you might want to think about that. Because sinning against him is not forgiven.First off…if you check your history you find that tho some places have asserted that they had the tomb of Mary, all of them have been found to be without any proof. Not even Ephesus where she lived with St. John.

There is, however, traditional writings of the ECF that says that she was assumed into heaven by Jesus Himself.

So…she sinned, therefore she died? Not likely…has a stillborn infant sinned when they die? Has any young child who dies sinned and that the reason?

In short…hogwash.

You make assertions that are not supported by the Word of God.

The fact is that whether the Blessed Virgin died or not is irrelevant to my life as a believer. It doesn’t make me live better either way.

As for your judgmental implication that we are in danger of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think so, since teh Word of God is specific as to what constitutes that sin and your interpretation is terribly unscriptural.

As I have told you before…you really should not attempt to preach…especially if this is an example of your best shot.

By the way…did you notice that St. Paul doesn’t say, “Carefully study [the Bible] to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” and in light of his references to sacred Tradition in other passages it refutes what you preach about Sola Scriptura?

James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.

 

[Joseph_Smith]

As you are speaking about the assumption of Mary and her having a physical body in heaven. Could you per chance give me any scripture on that from the apostles or the prophets of God. Because i have read the holy scripture for many years and have found absolutly nothing in God word on about it taking place period.

 

[adrift]

As you are speaking about the assumption of Mary and her having a physical body in heaven. Could you per chance give me any scripture on that from the apostles or the prophets of God. Because i have read the holy scripture for many years and have found absolutly nothing in God word on about it taking place period.

Why would it be in scripture?
Tell me what happened to all the apostles from scripture only of course.

 

[Church_Militant]

As you are speaking about the assumption of Mary and her having a physical body in heaven. Could you per chance give me any scripture on that from the apostles or the prophets of God. Because i have read the holy scripture for many years and have found absolutly nothing in God word on about it taking place period.

You’re dead wrong on that one too.

The Biblical precedent is there…Enoch, Moses, and Elijah. Why not Mary…especially since there is historical evidence to support it. Moreover, the Bible nowhere says that everything that Christians believe has to come from the Bible. Paul told Timothy to study…he **didn’**t specify what…

The Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

I don’t care if you agree or not…you don’t have to, but that garbage in your initial post is baseless anti-Catholic propaganda, and I expect you to supply a link to where you copied it from and then to have the courage of your convictions to go and read that whole long link that I gave you that totally refutes your stuff and all the rest of Jack Chick’s lies.

I also suggest that you not attempt to use these forums as a platform for anti-Catholic propaganda. It’s one thing to want to really discuss our most holy faith, and another to try to use our own forums as a vehicle to post lies and misinformation about us.

 

[Joseph_Smith]

Augustine declared that Mary’s flesh was “flesh of sin.” (De Peccatorum Meritis, ii, c. 24).
“Mary, springing from Adam, died because of sin; and the flesh of our Lord, derived from Mary, died to take away sin.” (De Peccatorum Meritis, ii, c. 24).

 

[Nicene]

Also Mary was a sinner or she would not have died. Sin leads to death.

Interesting. Two problems:

A. Christ died on the cross and was therefore a sinner, according to protestant theology.
B. Jesus didn’t actually die on the cross, nor was he put in a tomb.

Care to amend your statement?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene