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Tom317
Guest
From the RSV:
*So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *
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*So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *
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Church_Militant
Guest
This is hogwash.
Open a thead on each supposed case and give your examples and I’ll happily take them apart one after another.
I don’t think you can support that statement in debate with me lady, but you’re welcome to give it your best shot.
Pax tecum,
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Please show me,in scripture, where Mary was sinless her whole life and was born of a virgin birth herself.
Thank you in advance.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Allforhim, there is no reason for Mary to be born of a virgin birth. The criteria for sinlessness is not “to be born of a Virgin”. Jesus was born sinless not because Mary was a virgin but because He was born as Son of God. That being the case, Mary’s being sinless was due to her status as Mother of God (Theotokos); just as Mary’s need for a Savior (her Son) was met prior to her conception, and prior to His salvific death on the cross; just as the Eucharist we share is not only the self-same Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ crucified but also the same Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ offered at the Last Supper before His crucifixion. The same supper, once and for all time; not a resacrifice and not a recreation.
John the Baptist was born sinless as well, you know. He was sanctified in the womb of Elizabeth when Mary greeted her. And John was not born of a Virgin.
John the Baptist was born sinless as well, you know. He was sanctified in the womb of Elizabeth when Mary greeted her. And John was not born of a Virgin.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Wow I just learned something esle new today. I have never ever heard that catholics thought John the Baptist was also sinless
Prove all you say with Scripture please:thumbsup:
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Gladly.
Luke 1: 40: When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among woman, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? For as soon as I heard your sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. . .”
When Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, the infant John was redeemed from original sin. Thus, he was born sinless–but he was not born of a virgin.
Do you remember later that Jesus tells us that there is “no man born of woman who is greater than John the Baptist, yet the least born of the kingdom of heaven is greater than he?” Why do you think He would have said that? Moses is pretty great; he saw God face to face. Abraham’s faith was ‘credited to him as righteousness’. But Jesus says that John was greater than all of these. John was born sinless. He was sanctified by the Spirit, as was Mary. Their baptism was pure spirit. Their redemption was from Jesus but it occured in time (temporally) before His death and resurrection.
I know this is hard stuff for you, All (my best friend is UCC and we’ve had discussions since we were teens). We respect each other; we focus on what we share and we pray to God when one or the other shares something the other finds ‘difficult’. Always, always our prayers are answered, even if sometimes it takes years for the full answer to be seen and understood.
Luke 1: 40: When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among woman, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? For as soon as I heard your sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. . .”
When Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, the infant John was redeemed from original sin. Thus, he was born sinless–but he was not born of a virgin.
Do you remember later that Jesus tells us that there is “no man born of woman who is greater than John the Baptist, yet the least born of the kingdom of heaven is greater than he?” Why do you think He would have said that? Moses is pretty great; he saw God face to face. Abraham’s faith was ‘credited to him as righteousness’. But Jesus says that John was greater than all of these. John was born sinless. He was sanctified by the Spirit, as was Mary. Their baptism was pure spirit. Their redemption was from Jesus but it occured in time (temporally) before His death and resurrection.
I know this is hard stuff for you, All (my best friend is UCC and we’ve had discussions since we were teens). We respect each other; we focus on what we share and we pray to God when one or the other shares something the other finds ‘difficult’. Always, always our prayers are answered, even if sometimes it takes years for the full answer to be seen and understood.
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whosebob
Guest
JMJ + OBT
There is certainly a fair amount of Scripture which can be understood to imply Mary’s immaculate conception and lifelong sinlessness. BUT, “showing it in Scripture” cannot be the sole criterion for explaining or defending doctrines of the Christian Faith. If you are going to maintain the doctrine of sola scriptura as a plank in your arguments against Catholic teaching, you will need to:
(1) demonstrate what book, chapter, and verse(s) within the Holy Bible gives the “table of contents” for the Bible. Given that such a verse doesn’t exist, you will then need to provide a coherent explanation of how and when the Holy Spirit has guided you personally or Christians corporately to know which texts are part of Sacred Scripture and which ones are not.
(2) demonstrate what book, chapter, and verse(s) teach that Sacred Scripture is the highest, final, and/or sole authority for determining proper Christian beliefs.
(3) demonstrate that the early Christians and their pastors transmitted the teaching of sola scriptura from the Apostles who taught them; OR explain why the early Christians and their pastors did not believe in sola scriptura.
Do you understand why it’s important that I keep bringing up this point when you say “show me in Scripture [where this doctrine is stated definitively]”?
May Our Lord bless you and keep you.
In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
IC XC NIKA
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Church_Militant
Guest
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Thank you in advance.2nd part first: Nowhere in Catholic teaching will you find it taught that Mary was born of a virgin. You have just displayed the irrefutable fact that you do not know what you are talking about. That has never been, Is not now, and never will be Catholic teaching.As for a sinless life…since it is your allegation that she sinned, the rule of debate is that the burden of proof lies with the one making the allegation, so the burden is yours.
My point was that the Greek definitely supports her Immaculate Conception.
Keep trying…but know what you’re talking about before you engage me in a debate or you won’t like the result.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Yes it is not only hard but a huge stretch. But I agree with you that we should respect each other’s view point. Thank you for explaining your point of view.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
You’re welcome, friend.
Hey, maybe it’s a little seed that will grow.
Hey, maybe it’s a little seed that will grow.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
I believe in the immaculate conception of Jesus Christ. I was told by many catholics on this forum that Mary was born of a virgin birth herself. So if that is not catholic teaching then you better tell your fellow catholics. I am relieved that this is not catholic teaching. See how difficult it is for us non-catholics beecause apparently I am getting wrong info. directly from catholics.
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VociMike
Guest
I have never once in all my life seen a Catholic make this claim.
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VociMike
Guest
This does not say that all people who do not receive the Eucharist have no life in them. Rather than hijack this thread, if you want to start a new thread I can explain why.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Me neither until I heard it on this forum. It was probably before the crash. I kid you not. Put out a thread and see. Imagine my shock.
Of course I was also shocked when I found out the CC teaches Mary was sinless and a virgin her whole life.
But Im glad to hear the other is not true. PHEW. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
You’re welcome, friend.
Right back at ya.
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Tom317
Guest
No need to start a new thread. The verse could not be more clear then it is and it makes my point. I do not need your explanation, though I do thank you for the offer.
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VociMike
Guest
Fine, but note that your clear understanding of the verse means that baptized babies who die will not go to heaven.No need to start a new thread. The verse could not be more clear then it is and it makes my point. I do not need your explanation, though I do thank you for the offer.
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whosebob
Guest
JMJ + OBT
Come now, gentlemen, let’s not derail this thread and have it become closed by the CAF moderators. Perhaps you should continue the discussion by PM even if you’re not inclined to start a new thread.
In Christ.
IC XC NIKA
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VociMike
Guest
OK, I’ll stop.
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Church_Militant
Guest
. So if that is not catholic teaching then you better tell your fellow catholics. I am relieved that this is not catholic teaching. See how difficult it is for us non-catholics beecause apparently I am getting wrong info. directly from catholics.
They told you wrong or else you misunderstood.Maybe you ought to try reading real Catholic material like this course. http://www.amm.org/chss/images/chss9.gif
Which is available Free HERE.
Pax tecum,
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