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sandusky
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Prolong what agony?
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emeraldisle
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Have you not read what God says in His written word that the Lord Jesus was sinless and that He had a miraculous birth. Are you trying to deny what God has said in His written word?
With regards to Mary did God say in His written word that she was sinless, did He say that she had a miraculous birth? Of course the answer is no. So why doubt God, why not believe what He says in His written word?
Believe Gods Truth and not mans logic!
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emeraldisle
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Are you suggesting that God hasn’t revealed in His written word that the Lord Jesus is fully God & Man?
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emeraldisle
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The Bible clearly states that the Lord Jesus would be born of a virgin and not a sinless virgin, see Isa 7:14.
The Bible very clearly tells us that Mary was a human being. The Bible very clearly tells us that all humans are sinners, Rom 5:12.
Mary is human, Mary was a virgin, Mary was a sinner. So yes Mary was a virgin and she was a sinner.
The Bible very clearly tells us that the Lord Jesus is sinless, 1Peter 2:21-22. The Bible very clearly tells us that the Lord Jesus would be born of a virgin(not a sinless virgin), Isa 7:14.
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emeraldisle
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You said, "Adam and Eve were obviously sinless, but the Bible does not explicitly state: Adam and Eve were created sinless.
Does God need to explicitly state the obvious??
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mercygate
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I am not at all “suggesting” that the Bible does not plainly reveal that Jesus is “fully God & Man,” I am stating it flat out.
In fact, when the doctrine was promulgated in Ecumenical Council, they had to cook up a non-Biblical word for it: homoousion.
You have the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, fully and clearly articulated, from the First Ecumenical Council in 325 A.D.
The doctrine is SUPPORTED by Scripture but it is not delineated in Scripture.
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Thing
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Please tell me if a virgin birth is a normal thing.
Do normal women have virgin births.
Is Mary an ordinary woman, or is there something special about her.
Where does God Explicitly tell you that this extrordinary and unique woman was a sinful virgin.
Where does the Bible say that the Lord Jesus would be born of a sinful virgin.
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ChrisWRIT
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I thought the same thing. I mean, a virgin birth seems pretty miraculous to me.
Perhaps emeraldisle is saying that “His written word” says that Mary just went into the garden out behind the house with Gabriel?
IIRC, the Mormons say she went out back with God the Father. Maybe s/he’s Mormon?
That’s true; the Bible does say that Jesus would be born of a virgin. But then, it doesn’t say that Jesus would be born of a sinful virgin.
Yep. The Bible does say that Mary was a human being & it also says that she was a virgin. However, only YOU “very clearly” tell us that Mary was a sinner.
I know, I know: “But she even said that she needed a savior!!!”
Yes, she did. And her savior was Jesus Christ. If it was possible for Mary to be saved, to receive God’s grace & forgiveness, to rejoice in her savior before He was even born, why is it impossible to think that God couldn’t save her at her conception?
Nope, nothing is possible if it isn’t explicitly stated in “God’s written word”.
Well, at least if one is discussing Catholic doctrines that Protestants object to, right?
Good grief; back to “One-Note-Johnny”.
The blarneystone (ei) doesn’t like it, but can’t seem to wrap his/her head around the fact that this claim implicitly denies one or both of his/her other observations, the perfect sinlessness of Christ, or his incarnation (the fact that he was fully God & fully man.)
I know the Bible says that “with God, all things are possible”, but I just don’t seem to be able to conjure up enough faith to believe that God’s truth can contradict itself.
Oh well.
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rinnie
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Ok heres the deal, The RCC says that Mary was full of Grace, She had no sins, she was a virgin until the days she died, and she was never buried in the Dirt. Her body was never left here to decay. Now if you have faith and believe in the RCC you have no doubt. Now why would the Church lie about this think about it, what really would it change Nothing. Now why is it so easy for people to believe in so many stupid things today, following so many false teachings, looking for a role model, especially on Tv, people who abuse drugs, alchol etc and make them gods, And then turn around and not be able to believe the MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD Could NOT HAVE ANY SINS. THAT GOD WOULD PICK THIS WOMAN AND MAKE HER THE PERFECT ROLE MODEL FOR ALL MANKIND. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO BELIEVE. Then you got Tom Cruise, Oprah, pushing these false gods, and people think they are great. go figure. I KNOW GOD WOULD MAKE THE MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST BE MORE THAN A SAINT. SHE IS NEXT TO GOD IN MY BOOK. SHE NEVER EVER QUESTIONED GOD. SHE IS PERFECT. SHE IS THE PERSON WE SHOULD ALL FOLLOW AND TRY TO BE LIKE NOT CONDEM.
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emeraldisle
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Can you not understand that the Lord Jesus is fully God & Man and all the rest of humanity is fully human. Also can you not understand that God says in His written word that the Lord Jesus is sinless.
Do you not understand that God says in His written word that all of humanity that came from Adam is sinful. Do you not understand that the Lord Jesus didn’t come from Adam. Do you not understand that Mary did come from Adam and so she was a sinner.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12
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allhers
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emeraldisle, you still don’t understand that Jesus left us a Church and that the Church left us a Bible and that is why you need Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium (which is the teaching office of the Church), in order to understand all that you read, otherwise you end up where you are.** Not** understanding all that you read and insisting over and over again that you are right, when clearly, as has been demonstrated over and over, you aren’t. You just think you are and its sad, quite frankly, to watch. I will keep you in my prayers.
(I now know why we :irish1: came up with the phrase “full of blarney”.)
(I now know why we :irish1: came up with the phrase “full of blarney”.)
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emeraldisle
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Yes I understand that the Bible is Gods written word and that He gave us His written word.
Yes I understand when someone can’t present evidence from the Scriptures that show Mary didn’t have a fallen human nature, that they then resort to personal attacks.
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allhers
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Evidence has been given you in abundance, perhaps you ought to read it all. I am not attacking you, I am just making an observation about something that I always wondered about and now I understand the meaning of that phrase.
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anthony022071
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That’s not what the early Church fathers thought.
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
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anthony022071
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emeraldisle
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I noticed you couldn’t give any evidence of God saying in His written word that Mary didn’t have a fallen human nature. However I can give you evidence that God says in His written word that Mary did have a fallen human nature which came from Adam.
The above quote from me was in response to the following statement by bilop, see post #2 of this thread;
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12
Now I know people say what about Jesus didn’t He die and He was sinless, well again the answer is in Gods written word. Jesus laid down His life, remember He is God.
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18
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emeraldisle
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Are you saying that Jesus came from Adam, that He wasn’t miraculously born by the Holy Spirit through the virgin Mary?
Are you saying the sinlessness of the Lord Jesus depended upon Mary?
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anthony022071
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anthony022071
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franjos
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Firstly, we (the modern minds) believe in genetic information or the transfer of information from our parents thru the genes these days. Here is the website :
stanford.edu/~wine/202/g-and-b.html
Secondly, since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, then Jesus took His flesh alone from Mary, because He has no biological father.
Having said this two important facts, and analyzing it, we could say that the crucial genetic information (if not all) from Mary can be transfered to the flesh of Jesus.
Therefore, if Mary is a sinner, then the flesh of Jesus would also contain these genetic information of being sinful. If Jesus inherited this sinfulness from Mary, then He is also a slave of the devil, and it will lead him to eternal death.
On the contray, we all know that Jesus is sinless, spotless (both human and divine nature) and righteous. His body (whose flesh he receive from Mary) is also spotless, and must be sinless. Therefore, Mary is also spotless, sinless, full of humility and righteousness. That is why she is full of grace and the Lord God honored and blessed her above all of us.
Thus, anyone who says Mary is a sinner is dishonoring Mary. And Whosoever says also that Mary is a sinner is dishonoring Jesus’ and is mocking God.
stanford.edu/~wine/202/g-and-b.html
Secondly, since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, then Jesus took His flesh alone from Mary, because He has no biological father.
Having said this two important facts, and analyzing it, we could say that the crucial genetic information (if not all) from Mary can be transfered to the flesh of Jesus.
Therefore, if Mary is a sinner, then the flesh of Jesus would also contain these genetic information of being sinful. If Jesus inherited this sinfulness from Mary, then He is also a slave of the devil, and it will lead him to eternal death.
On the contray, we all know that Jesus is sinless, spotless (both human and divine nature) and righteous. His body (whose flesh he receive from Mary) is also spotless, and must be sinless. Therefore, Mary is also spotless, sinless, full of humility and righteousness. That is why she is full of grace and the Lord God honored and blessed her above all of us.
Thus, anyone who says Mary is a sinner is dishonoring Mary. And Whosoever says also that Mary is a sinner is dishonoring Jesus’ and is mocking God.
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