did Mary have fallen human nature?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jacob_B
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
When I became Catholic, I took the leap of faith, as there was MUCH that I had problems with. Beginning with Mary.
There’s no need to take a “leap of faith” re Mary, just take the time to read Gods written word and know His Truth about Mary

God clearly states in His written word that the Lord Jesus is sinless and that Mary along with all the rest of humanity that came from Adam are sinners.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Heb 4:15

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

.
 
The Lord Jesus came into this world to save sinners like you, me and Mary.

Salvation is of the Lord

Salvation is not of the Lord + Mary

No where in Gods written word does it say that Mary had to be sinless to enable God to save sinners.

.
Your traditions are man-made. The early church believed Mary was sinless. You do not. Even your own fathers, Luther, and his successors believed this. Deal with his reality, then respond.

She is the Ark of the Covenant, therefore she is pure, spotless, without blemish.

She was the Last overshadowing of the Holy Spirit, a new creation, just like previous two overshadowings.

Now if you go to Genesis 3:15, we read that the Lord (understood as the Father) tells the serpent “I shall put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel”. Here I am quoting from the RSV Catholic Edition. Other translations read “She shall crush your head you will bruise her heel”. The distinction between he (Jesus) and she (Mary) is of no consequence whatsoever **due to the enmity between the woman the serpent **(the devil). This is the only enmity that God establishes down the ages. This enmity is total, complete and fierce. Where the woman is, there can be no serpent, and where the serpent is, the woman is not.

If therefore, the serpent, the devil who is lie and the father of lie, who brought sin into the world, if he is in complete total and full opposition with the woman, it must be that the woman has never had any dealing with him. If she did this enmity would not be completely established. Hence, one has to logically conclude that Mary was never under sin.

Mary is no more, since it is Jesus that lives in her.
 
…and to emeraldisle, we understand that you have Jesus in His Word, and we thank God for that, what we want you to understand however, is that we Catholics have HIM, HE, HIMSELF, the fullness of Truth. That is why in our Mass we have both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
I know Gods Truth about Mary from His written word, you have mans ideas about Mary from the Catholic Churches traditions.

.
 
I know Gods Truth about Mary from His written word, you have mans ideas about Mary from the Catholic Churches traditions.

.
Yeah, buddy, you might want to read what the bible has to say about Tradition:

scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

Start there.

Anyhow, the bible itself points to the Church as “the pillar and FOUNDATION of truth”
2 Tim 3:15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Did you happen to miss that verse at your local "bible church’?
 
Yeah, buddy, you might want to read what the bible has to say about Tradition:
Yes I will pay attention to what the head of the true Church, the Lord Jesus Christ says about mans traditions.

making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” Mark 7:13

.
 
Yes I will pay attention to what the head of the true Church, the Lord Jesus Christ says about mans traditions.

making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” Mark 7:13

.
what is the context of this verse?

So basically you ACCEPT that bible in error becasue of the verses I gave whicH CONTRADICT (something common in protestantism apparently) what another verse says. What say you?

**2 Thessalonians 2:15
**herefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
 
The best Book to read to find out Gods Truth about Mary is His written word, the Scriptures.

.
Question: Do you find Christ anywhere but in the book? I’m serious. It almost sounds like you are more in love with the bible than with Christ. All I hear is “the bible” “his written word” “scripture says” “it is written” “it’s in the bible” “holy scripture says” etc. etc. etc. Christ is not a beautiful leaf that’s pressed between the pages of a book!

He is flesh, and He lives. He is not a man-made god of the printer’s art. You should seek Him where He lives in the flesh. I hope the book is not the means by which He remains with you until the end of the age. There’s so much more to Christ.
 
Yes I will pay attention to what the head of the true Church, the Lord Jesus Christ says about mans traditions.

making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” Mark 7:13

.
This is not only incorrect, it is stereotyping! It was the traditions of the Pharisees that Christ condemned. Christ’s traditions, which He taught orally, were passed on to the twelve, who taught them to Paul. Yet you have even thrown away Paul’s traditions! I cannot fathom why you would throw these away, since Paul himself admonished you to keep them. It’s right there is your bible.
 
what is the context of this verse?
The Lord Jesus is pointing out to the Pharisees that their man made traditions went against Gods true teachings. Now the Catholic Churches teaching that Mary was sinless goes against what God says in His written word.

God clearly states in His written word that the Lord Jesus is sinless and that Mary along with all the rest of humanity that came from Adam are sinners.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Heb 4:15

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thes 2:15
Show me the evidence that Paul taught that Mary was sinless.

.
 
Question: Do you find Christ anywhere but in the book? I’m serious. It almost sounds like you are more in love with the bible than with Christ. All I hear is “the bible” “his written word” “scripture says” “it is written” “it’s in the bible” “holy scripture says” etc. etc. etc. Christ is not a beautiful leaf that’s pressed between the pages of a book!
To truly love God is to love His Truth and His Truth is revealed in His written word.

Now God hasn’t revealed in His written word that Mary was sinless but the Catholic Church tradition teaching says that she was sinless.

The Catholic Churches tradition teaches that Mary was sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was IC(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was given a special grace to remain sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary didn’t die(not in the Bible)

.
 
Was it “fitting” for the Son of God to humble Himself in taking on flesh, in being born in a stable, in eating and drinking with sinners, in riding on a donkey into Jerusalem, in being mocked and spat upon by those He created, in hanging naked on the cross, in bearing our sin on Himself, the sinless One.
Since God chose to follow this path to redeem us, the answer is “Yes”. God could have saved us without taking on human flesh from Mary if he wanted to, but by “humbling himself and taking the form of a slave” he showed us how much he loves us, which is the reason why he saved us. And by becoming human, God showed us to what degree we should express our love for him and our neighbour in order to be saved. Paul tells us that love is a greater virtue than faith.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
To truly love God is to love His Truth and His Truth is revealed in His written word.
Truth is Jesus Christ and all truth is revealed through Jesus Christ. Or do you worship the book above Christ? I am serious. Bible believers for all the world appear to worship the bible! They seem to care less about Christ in the Flesh, and more about those printed words!

You are like the blind man describing the elephant by touching only the trunk. You honestly think you have the whole picture, but clearly you do not. If you do not believe the bible when it says it’s incomplete, no one on earth can help you.
 
which leads to the teaching that Mary didn’t die(not in the Bible)

.
Whoe!!! There has been enough pretexting going on here to write a commentary.
Where does the Catholic Church dogmaticly teach that Mary the Theotokos did not die?
 
The Lord Jesus is pointing out to the Pharisees that their man made traditions went against Gods true teachings. Now the Catholic Church’s teaching that Mary was sinless goes against what God says in His written word.

God clearly states in His written word that the Lord Jesus is sinless and that Mary along with all the rest of humanity that came from Adam are sinners.

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Heb 4:15

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:12

Show me the evidence that Paul taught that Mary was sinless.
God says in his written word: “Hail, full of grace” (Lk 1, 28). What the Catholic Church teaches about Mary’s sinless nature reflects the written word.

Our Lord promised to send his One Apostolic Church the Paraclete to guide her in all truth. See the Gospel of John 14-16.

On the contrary, from Genesis to Revelation, Scripture implies that Mary was an exception to the rule. It’s been pointed out to you above in this thread, but you keep repeating yourself. You remind me of the same billboard that appears everywhere I drive my car. Do you hold up a sign that quotes Romans 5:12 when you sit behind home plate at a baseball game? You churchless Bible Christians are absolutely amazing.

The sinlessness of Jesus does not presuppose or necessitate that Mary was actually sinful. Your reasoning is fallacious. Again, she was merely implicated in the sin of Adam and Eve, and so God redeemed her at the moment he fashioned her soul and preserved her free from the stain of original sin.

Finally, I’m still waiting for the scriptural evidence that shows us Paul taught Jesus was born of a Virgin. 😉

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
The Blessed Mother was hand picked by God. Her Mothers name was Anna, she was a very religious women. when she was carrying Mary in her womb she asked God to bless her child and her love was so great for God she offered her daughter to him… Mary was taken to the temple every single day of her life. She spend more time in prayer then out of it. She was picked from the beginning to be the Mother of Jesus. She never had a real life calling in this world but to be the Mother of Christ. Thats the reason she was born, to do Gods work. She was chosen, now why would it do anyone any good to not say the Mother of Christ was sinless. It just doesnt make sense. Look at Elizabeth and look at her son again a prophet. Why is it so hard to believe when the bible says Mary was full of Grace, Blessed are you among women. Why was it said blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Why was Jesus and the Blessed Mother the only ones called blessed. No one has ever been referred to that in the bible ever except them two. Oh people have been blessed, i have been blessed with 2 wonderful children a wonderful husband and the best Mother and Dad in the world. But noone has ever refered to me as blessed. Do you see the difference. She is perfect without sin, God would never pick a sinner to be the Mother of Jesus Christ. And if he would have he would have shared it with us. Look at Mary Madelem (sorry to lazy to look up how to spell it today) anyway she was a sinner and we are told she is. If Mary wasnt Blessed then the bible would not say she was. It would say Mary a common sinner, like us all. but it didnt it said Blessed ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN AND BLESSED IS YOUR SON.
 
Don’t deny the Incarnation in your quest to proclaim Mary a sinner. Jesus was fully man, without sin or corruption, and yet he died.
Jesus voluntarily undertook death. He would not have died had He not chosen to, so the argument from Jesus’ sinlessness to Mary’s is unconvincing, to me. Joe
 
I know Gods Truth about Mary from His written word, you have mans ideas about Mary from the Catholic Churches traditions.
The Catholic Church was founded by Christ upon Peter. So the Church and its doctrines are not man-made. Sola scriptura is a man-made doctrine.
 
To truly love God is to love His Truth and His Truth is revealed in His written word.
Now God hasn’t revealed in His written word that Mary was sinless but the Catholic Church tradition teaching says that she was sinless.
The Catholic Churches tradition teaches that Mary was sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was IC(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary was given a special grace to remain sinless(not in the Bible), which leads to the teaching that Mary didn’t die(not in the Bible)
.
Non-Catholics don’t understand where Catholic teachings come from.
Code:
  Catholics start off with Jesus, not the bible.
Jesus is the fullness of revelation, since He is God. The bible is part of the Word of God, but it is not God, thus it is not the fullness of revelation. It is great for salvation history, but it is not God.
Now Jesus is the fullness of revelation:
“All things have been delivered to me by my Father…” Mt 11:27
In Jesus "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” Col 2:3
In Christ “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col 2:9)
Notice that the fullness of deity does not dwell in the bible, nor are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge in the bible, but only in Jesus.
Next the Church teaches
The Gospel Jesus taught His apostles included “everything” and “all things” through the Holy Spirit. No doctrine is left out.
The bible is a witness to this teaching of the Church
Mr 4:34 “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.”
John 15:15 “for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
Mt 13:11 “to you it has been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven”
John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

Thus the apostles were taught ALL THINGS and EVERYTHING regarding salvation.
Notice that the apostles did NOT teach themselves, such as non-Catholics try to teach themselves doctrine by reading the bible. Jesus and the Holy Spirit taught the apostles, the leaders of His Church directly.
Since the Gospel the apostles learned from Jesus and the Holy Spirit included “everything” and “all things” there was no doctrine that they could learn from scripture. If the Church had learned any saving truth from scripture, Jesus would have been a liar when He said He taught the apostles “everything”. Thus the origin of all Catholic Church doctrines is not scripture, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
That is why at mass we pray for “those who hold and teach the Catholic faith which comes to us from the apostles.” The doctrines of the Catholic faith do NOT originate from scripture, but directly from God who taught the apostles “everything.”
Code:
  Next:
                              **3.****"Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel. **Since this Gospel they preached contained “everything” and “all things” the Church teaches this Gospel contains  “the fullness of the truth which God has enabled us to know about himself”[1](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#sdfootnote1sym) and as the Catechism teaches it was to be “the source of all saving truth and moral discipline”[2](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#sdfootnote2sym).
  [1](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#sdfootnote1anc)Redemptoris     missio, 5

  [2](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#sdfootnote2anc)Catechism     of the Catholic Church 75e


                              **This full and living Gospel was handed down entirely in Tradition.**
The apostles had to follow the example of Jesus, since He was God and He taught by example. Since Jesus handed His entire Gospel down to His apostles without writing a single word, that is, He handed down His entire Gospel by Tradition, then His apostles had to hand the entire Gospel to their successors, without writing a single word and hand the entire Gospel down by Tradition.
Since Jesus taught His apostles “everything”, and left out nothing of the Gospel, His apostles had to teach their successors “everything” and leave out nothing of the Gospel.
The Church teaches in the Catechism:
“In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority.” Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.” This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."1
The “full and living Gospel” is handed down entirely in Tradition. Thus, the Church teaches “all that she believes” is handed down entirely in Tradition, not scripture. The apostles were only following the command and example of Jesus when they did this.
 
Because this Gospel that was preached was the “source of all saving truth and moral discipline” Jesus said that Salvation comes from believing the Gospel the apostles preached.
In Mark 16:16 He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
Jesus never said salvation comes from believing the Gospels they wrote, or from believing scripture or from believing the bible.

Jesus said salvation comes from believing the Gospel they taught, that is, the one handed down in Tradition, the Word of God handed down in Tradition. Thus salvation comes from believing the Word of God, or Sacred Tradition that apostles handed down orally and by example.
Code:
                            Later on the Holy Spirit moved some apostles and apostolic men to write the narratives of the life of Jesus, the four Gospels. “The sacred authors, in writing the four Gospels, selected certain of the many elements which had been handed on...”[1](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/#sdfootnote1sym)

  These narratives of the life of Jesus are also called “Gospels” because they contain certain of the many elements of the “full and living Gospel” as the direct words of Jesus about the good news of salvation. Thus they are also the Word of God.
But, There is not a single book of the Bible, not a single chapter of the Bible that claims to be a summary of this Gospel that the apostles taught and preached.

And this Gospel they taught and preached was so extensive, that the apostles could not remember it all. Jesus had to send the Holy Spirit so they could remember all He taught them.
Now the apostles could not proclaim the Gospel by reading scripture because nowhere does the bible claim to present the Gospel the apostles taught and preached. The bible claims to present narratives of the life of Jesus and salvation history, not the Gospel the apostles taught and preached. No one can learn the Gospel the apostles taught and preached by reading the word of God in the form of salvation history.
Even Martin Luther, the greatest promoter of “Scripture alone” could not teach his doctrines by scripture alone. He had to write two catechisms, one for children, the Small Catechism and one for adults, the Large Catechism, which he said was a “Short Summary and, Epitome of the Entire Holy Scriptures.”
So how did the apostles teach their Gospel? What was the content of this Gospel? We know from the teachings of the early Church that first they had to teach who God was, why He created us and why He sent His son Jesus. If a person wanted to learn more and was interested in becoming a Christian and being freed from the slavery of sin, then he would be taught the Trinity, salvation history (scripture), then the articles of the Creed, Sacraments, Commandments and prayer. In other words, the apostles had to organize all they had learned directly from Jesus and the Holy Spirit and put it in a form that people could remember and understand. If we notice Catholic Catechisms today, starting with St. Augustine’s and continuing with many others, especially the two official Catholic Catechisms, the Roman Catechism, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, they are in the form of the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer. Why? Because this is the form and method the apostles handed down when they taught the Gospel. Remember, the apostles did NOT learn the Gospel by reading the bible. They were taught “everything” and “all things” directly by God. And neither do the written Gospels claim to present the Gospel the apostles taught and preached. They claim to be narratives of the life of Jesus. Thus the Gospels that were written and the Gospel the apostles taught and preached were distinct. The Gospels were salvation history of the narratives of the life of Jesus, with some doctrines also present, while the Gospel the apostles proclaimed were all the teachings of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all the ways of worship they learned from Jesus and His doctrines presented in the form of the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer. This Gospel was simply the whole Catholic faith, centered around the Good News that God, out of love for us, sent His son Jesus to free us from the slavery of sin so we can live in union with Him now and forever. So the Catholic faith and the teachings of the Catholic faith do not originate with scripture, but were taught to the Church directly by God and the Holy Spirit. The catechisms of the Catholic Church are do NOT originate from the teachings of scripture, as Luther’s catechisms claim to do. Catholic catechisms are simply a summary of the Gospel the apostles proclaimed. That is why the Church teaches,
“Catechesis is nothing other than the process of transmitting the Gospel, as the Christian community has received it, understands it, celebrates it, lives it and communicates it in many ways.”
General Directory for Catechesis 105
and
“In local catechisms, the Church communicates the Gospel in a manner accessible to the human person so that it may be really perceived as the “Good News” of salvation”
General Directory for Catechesis

Now, since the teachings of the Catholic Church do not originate with scripture, but come directly from the Gospel that Jesus and the Holy Spirit taught directly to the Church, and since the bible does NOT claim to present this Gospel anywhere, other than certain elements of this Gospel found in scripture, there is no reason that any doctrine of the Catholic Church HAS to be found in the bible, other than a few elements that come alone with salvation history. There is certainly no reason all doctrines must be found in scripture. If scripture claimed to present the Gospel the apostles taught and preached, then we would have a basis for that claim. But scripture only claims to present salvation history and some of the teachings of Jesus. Now, the Church does claim to present this living Gospel the apostles handed down to her. Thus, the Catechisms of the Catholic Church do claim to be “a significant contemporary expression of the living Tradition of the Church.” The same Tradition the apostles learned from Jesus and handed down as the Gospel.
The same Word of God the apostles handed down to their successors, the Pope and bishops of the Catholic Church. The same Word of God through which Jesus says we are saved. So it is only in the Catechisms in which we would expect to find almost all the teachings of God , NOT the bible.
 
You offer up a false dilema here.

Certainly God was capable of clearly stating for us all necessay teaching for the Christian faith in written form.

Where, however, does it say that He had to or chose to do so?

It’s pretty clear from His written word that He founded a Church on the testimony of His disciples not the words in a book.

He inspired His Church to preserve some of the inspied written testimony of those disciples as scripture.

Interestingly enough the book you hold up as the all inclusive sole rule of faith doesn’t make such a claim for itself.

Chuck
Are you really suggesting that Gods written word isn’t sufficient for the Christian faith, that God was unable to give us the necessary teaching for the Christian faith in His written word.

.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top