Did Muhammed and the Koran teach violence against infidels, or didn't he.

[Eden]

The following are some real teachings of Islam:

• Men are superior to women (surah 2:228).
• Women have half the rights of men: in court witness (surah 2:282) and in inheritance
  (surah 4:11).
• A man may punish his wife by beating her (surah 4:34).
• A man may marry up to four wives at the same time (surah 4:3).
• A wife is a sex object for her husband (surah 2:223).
• Muslims must fight until their opponents submit to Islam (surah 9:29).
• A Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend (surah 5:51).
• A Muslim apostate must be killed (surah 9:12).
• Stealing is punished by the amputation of the hands (surah 5:38).
• Adultery is punished by public flogging (surah 24:2).
• Resisting Islam is punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet
  (surah 5:33).
• Fate decides everyone’s eternal destination (surah 17:13).
• Every Muslim will pass through Hell (surah 19:71).
• Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins (surah 55:54- 56) &
  (surah 52:17,19).
  islamreview.com/articles/facade.shtml

 

[Rolltide]

It should also be noted that Christianity did not exactly spread to the New World peacefully either. The New World was conquered by the Spanish, and in the name of Christianity. This doesn’t change the fact that many priests, notably Bartolome de las Casas, spoke out against the terrible treatment of Indians, and that the primary motive of the Conquistadors was “God, gold, and glory”, usually with God very far down the list. Read about the abomination called the Requirement sometime (which is eventually condemned by the Church). There was also the argument that African slavery should be permitted because native Americans had never received the word of God, and as such were innocent. They could not be forced to do work. Africans, on the other hand, were “infidels”, and had rejected Christianity. As they were doomed to hell anyway, they could be legitimately enslaved. Is it a proper argument? Of COURSE not! Las Casas railed against it himself (after initially supporting it). The reason Africans were brought in was because the native Americans were simply dying in droves due to their lack of immunity to European illnesses. There are fair comparisons to be made to the spread of Islam.

 

[Eden]

It should also be noted that Christianity did not exactly spread to the New World peacefully either.

We are talking about Muhammed and violence. If you would like to discuss the spread of Christianity I suggest that you start a new thread rather than try to derail the topic. Did anyone else notice this “Christians have done bad things” post immediately following my post of some real teachings of Islam? Seems like a weak (and all too common) post attempting to change the subject when the heat is on.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Rolltide,
You’ve just committed a massive tu quoque without even bothering to discern the differences between Christianity and Islam wrt slavery and methods of propagation.

You forgot that Jesus NEVER told his followers to oppress others while Muhammad did.

You forgot that Jesus NEVER told his followers to enslave others while Muhammad did.

You forgot that Jesus NEVER told his followers to force others to ‘convert or die’ while Muhammad did.

Granted the spread of Christianity was not always peaceful, but I challenge you to provide a single quote from Jesus justifying violence and persecution as means to spread Christianity.

Oh… I have plenty of quotes from Mahomet advocating violence and oppression of non-Muslims.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[Rolltide]

I’m not concerned about the fact that throughout the Umayyad and Abbasid Dynasties, Christians and Jews were tolerated and protected. I’m concerned about a faith system that threatens the very existence of me, my family, my fellow Christians and my way of life in 2006 during the “They Want to Kill Us All Dynasty”.

That is a gross generalization. How many Muslims have tried to kill you in the US? There are millions of peaceful Muslims here in this country and in many others. (I do, of course, recognize that there are a small number that are likely actively working for Al-Qaeda). Islamic terrorist groups are a fringe, and groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad are motivated as much by politics as anything else. Hezbollah operates much like the Italian Mafia. Religious terrorism can be seen in Christianity as well through groups such as the Irish Republican Army, the Army of God, the Nagaland rebels, and even the Ku Klux Klan.

There is a legitimate question to be asked here, and that is why in particular is Islamic fundamentalism on the rise? The answer is very complex, and has a lot to do with the political situations in a variety of different nations and regions, including Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, the Palestinian territories, Chechnya, Pakistan, Bosnia, and Africa.

Part of the answer to the question lies in the various reasons Hugo Chavez (head of a Christian nation) threw his support behind the Iranian government this week… I’m just asking people to put a little thought into the politics here and not be so one-dimensional. If we’re going to defeat the problem, a simple “Islam is based on conquest and must defeat us” is not sufficient.

 

[Rolltide]

Rolltide,
You’ve just committed a massive tu quoque without even bothering to discern the differences between Christianity and Islam wrt slavery and methods of propagation.

You forgot that Jesus NEVER told his followers to oppress others while Muhammad did.

You forgot that Jesus NEVER told his followers to enslave others while Muhammad did.

You forgot that Jesus NEVER told his followers to force others to ‘convert or die’ while Muhammad did.

Granted the spread of Christianity was not always peaceful, but I challenge you to provide a single quote from Jesus justifying violence and persecution as means to spread Christianity.

Oh… I have plenty of quotes from Mahomet advocating violence and oppression of non-Muslims.

Chau,
Rodrigo

My intent was not to derail the topic, so I apologize for that. I could have elaborated except that it’s 1 am and I figured people would get the analogy and I didn’t want to be writing for the next three hours. I’ll legitimately start another threat another time.

 

[Rolltide]

Rolltide,
You’ve just committed a massive tu quoque without even bothering to discern the differences between Christianity and Islam wrt slavery and methods of propagation.

Chau,
Rodrigo

By the way, massive vocabulary points for use of “tu quoque”!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Rolltide,
I beg to differ. Islam is politics as well as a religion. In traditional Islam there is no separation between religion and state. There is only sharia law which governs all aspects of a Muslim’s life (and also affects those of minorities).

You might say that only the extremist fringe groups are responsible for the violence and hatred we see in Islam today. I hold another view - violence and hatred are integral to Islam. It is not a fringe belief but the general belief. It is enshrined in the Quran, in Muhammad’s teachings. The fact that most Muslims are ‘peaceful’ does not hide the fact that they all hold these beliefs to be true. It doesn’t take much to tip a ‘peaceful’ or ‘moderate’ Muslim to become a jihadist. And what you don’t see is the silent support given by the so-called ‘peaceful’ Muslims to their jihadist brethren.

Death to America! Death to Israel!

 

[Eden]

Rolltide:

That is a gross generalization.

Please read it again. There is no gross generalization. “They want to kill *us all *Dynasty”. I believe you jumped at the opportunity to shut down my statement as hyperbole and in so doing did not read with comprehension. I did not say, “They all want to kill us Dynasty”. See the distinction? I don’t believe that it is a gross generalization to say that fanatic Muslims want to kill us all.

 

[Rolltide]

Please read it again. There is no gross generalization. “They want to kill *us all *Dynasty”. I believe you jumped at the opportunity to shut down my statement as hyperbole and in so doing did not read with comprehension. I did not say, “They all want to kill us Dynasty”. See the distinction? I don’t believe that it is a gross generalization to say that fanatic Muslims want to kill us all.

I read it with comprehension, but you reached the false conclusion that there is anything approaching a unified Islamic dynasty that currently exists. You are correct in that fanatic Muslims want to kill all westerners.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Rolltide:

Religious terrorism can be seen in Christianity as well through groups such as the Irish Republican Army, …

Untrue.
That conflict is political, nationalists can be protestant or Catholic.
Nor in the old days was the political divide confined to communities, within a single family a father and his son would take up arms against his two freestater sons and kill them.

However,
A placard waved by moslems outside St. Peters in Rome saying “Moslems Will Destroy Rome” is not a political statement but a statement of faith.

From reading this thread, the objective view and the correct view IMO is that Islam/Koran facilitates violence against humanity, / as Christ the Messiah, the Living fullfillment of the Sacred Scripture of the One True God, abhors violence.
Islam and Christianity both claim the same One God, but Islam arrived 700 years after Christ the Messiah spoke to us, and as the Byzantine Emperor Manuel Paleologos II said -
" Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as the command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Christ preached the fullness of Truth to us:
Love of God, Love of neighbour, Love your enemy, only do good to those who hate you.
What Islam brought which was new, and it is new if it comes from the same God as they claim, is this:
“…the command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”.

 

[Jeremiah_48350]

LOL- I think I see why Islamists are gaining in numbers, women are second class and good for about one thing (that won’t fly near educated or free nations); men are ‘all that and a bag of chips’-we rule; all these virgins await for the ‘good dead doer’ who kills Christians and Jews and non-believers…talk about fairy tails…and sales pitch to the libido of heathenistic men. Apparently these types actually believe, follow and endorse such…must have about a 2nd grade education or I.Q. of 40-60 range. Perhaps the gene pool was little to close to the Camel poplulation as it evolved. (ok, it was meant humorous and I don’t wish to be the next Rushdie of whomever the book writer was).

Now for the decent Muslims that might be around, speak up and denounce terrorism for what it is and show your intelligence and denounce the virgin reward program for suicide killers and other riduculous premises that are obvious to the rest of the worlds peoples. Can a Muslim get the virgin rewards program for frequent killings and amass numbers in the hundreds? My guess is the answer is ‘yes’ and Alah loves them even more for their deeds. Can someone explain how Alah or whoever lines up these virgins, like where to they come from, is not their acts immoral by any standard, are they always young and beautiful and most willing? Better yet, can you get it in writting prior to a suicide killing?

To our non-violent possible brothers, no offence and peace to you. You can choose your religion (hopefully freely), as we can choose ours. We are not out to destroy you, but we are allowed to defend ourselves, just as you would be. You might hate our values and other things, just keep it to yourselves, we may not endorse your programs (i.e. the above examples). You can worship your religion in the USA freely, can you say the same in your countries??? Why can’t someone have an open mind? Fear of losing the followers seems likely.

Real truth shall set you free and you can obtain peace on earth if we lived by the eternal truth. (big If)

 

[Thorondir]

Yes, I have read the Koran, thank you.

Either you have not read it or you are blatantly lying about it. You have been made, here. You’re either a muslim apologist or a liar or both.

No, I am in no way a moral relativist.

LOL! Your claim lies flat after the attacks you have leveled against the Catholic Church to make your prayer rug more comfortable and weaken us infidels.

I am a Catholic

Yeah, ok, sinkspur. At least you have been demoted from cyberdeacon to cybercatholiccollegeprofessor.

 

[Rolltide]

Either you have not read it or you are blatantly lying about it. You have been made, here. You’re either a muslim apologist or a liar or both.

LOL! Your claim lies flat after the attacks you have leveled against the Catholic Church to make your prayer rug more comfortable and weaken us infidels.

Yeah, ok, sinkspur. At least you have been demoted from cyberdeacon to cybercatholiccollegeprofessor.

I am a Catholic apologist who believes in ecuminism, I am not a liar. I could not remain in good standing at my college if I was. I treat everyone fairly as dictated by my Catholic faith. Catholicism teaches kindness, something which you are not practicing toward me, I’m afraid. Did you ever look at the Vatican website on Mary in the Qu’ran, by the way?

And I’m afriad you totally lost me on your last insult there. If you wanna call me cybercatholiccollegeprofessor, I think that’s a very accurate title.

Feel free to criticize what I say on here factually, but I’m fed up with the personal attacks.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Did the Vatican mention that the Quran plagiarised apocryphal stories about Mary?

 

[Rolltide]

Untrue.
That conflict is political, nationalists can be protestant or Catholic.
Nor in the old days was the political divide confined to communities, within a single family a father and his son would take up arms against his two freestater sons and kill them.

You are correct that the Northern Ireland situation is a political problem, but you’d be blind not to point out that it has a major religious component, just as many of the political conflicts in the Middle East. How many Protestant members of the IRA can you name, by the way? (And yes, I’m perfectly aware of their Protestant counterparts.) We can all thank God that that conflict has improved so drastically recently.

 

[Rolltide]

Did the Vatican mention that the Quran plagiarised apocryphal stories about Mary?

That simply makes them guilty of heresy. By the way, there is an EXCELLENT article on the EWTN website penned by the Vatican about Islam and Mary, and how it differs from Catholicism. I’ll see if I can find the link again.

 

[pro_universal]

Rolltide, I just want to say again that I’m happy to read your posts here. You and people like you are going to rescue Catholicism from angry hordes someday.

I think racism is a major component in middle east theories that no one is acknowledging. When the participants are white Christians, people are more than willing to ignore the deep religious hatred and blame the conflict on politics alone. But when the participants have year round tans and wear funny clothes, it HAS to be about some fanatical belief system that will never change until they are destroyed.

There is simply no intellectually honest way to blast Islamic groups for religious violence while excusing the IRA and its protestant counterparts.

 

[pro_universal]

That simply makes them guilty of heresy. By the way, there is an EXCELLENT article on the EWTN website penned by the Vatican about Islam and Mary, and how it differs from Catholicism. I’ll see if I can find the link again.

I recently read “The Muslim Jesus”, a collection of sayings in the Islamic tradition attributed to Jesus. It is an excellent piece.

 

[Rolltide]

Untrue.
That conflict is political, nationalists can be protestant or Catholic.
Nor in the old days was the political divide confined to communities, within a single family a father and his son would take up arms against his two freestater sons and kill them.

You are correct that the Northern Ireland situation is a political problem, but you’d be blind not to point out that it has a major religious component, just as many of the political conflicts in the Middle East. How many Protestant members of the IRA can you name, by the way? (And yes, I’m perfectly aware of their Protestant counterparts.) We can all thank God that that conflict has improved so drastically recently.