Did the Pope say that God and Allah are the same person?

[Eddie_Mac]

In the past, Christians and Muslims committed grave sins against each other. But as the Holy Father said in 1964 said and Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have reiterated, it’s time to put those aside and begin again by recognizing what unites us.

Just to point something out about your post and the actual reality of the Arab/Islam mindset.

I do have Muslim Arab friends, Iraqi Christian friends, other Arab friends who are not active Muslims. I recently exchanged email with one of them after I initiated a congratulatory message to him. He expressed a comitted love for a friend, the kind of comittment that few friendships know, even though I have not seen him for 14 years.

All of my Arab and Muslim friends share a significant trait that will prevent any unification or peace between Christianity/Judaism and Islam.

That trait is that they never forget a perceived or actual insult/injury, and they never forgive one. If they are your friend they are friend to the death. If they are your enemy they are your enemy to the death.

It really does not matter to me what the Holy Father says about Islam and the God they are supposed to be worshipping. The fanatical ones who want to kill us for our faith and their ideology do not care what the Holy Father says either. The point is moot.

How many posters here have actually talked to a Muslim about this?

Eddie Mac

 

[spankyg]

Until the Pope and the Catechism categorically state that Matariel is correct in his edict that Muslims worhip a devil, I personally will continue to consent to the spiritual authority of the Church when she proclaims that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

The pope is just doing what he thinks is best for humanity. If he can befriend Muslims, maybe this could open a pathway for them to be drawn closer to the true faith. If you read the Koran, it is not hard to understand that it is VERY wrong. It invokes Paedophilia (Mohammad’s wife was 6, and he consummated the marriage when she turned 9, he was over 50 at the time), It invokes murder and Jihad against ALL disbelievers (Mohammad murdered hundreds). Mohammad also commanded people to lie.

And during the end of the Koran, it is filled with contradictions which ALL supersede the latter, and to clear up any confusion, they throw this in: *“don’t you know, allah can do all things” * …include contradict himself?

It’s just Pathetic.

But the Pope see’s this and understands that if he can bring Muslims closer to Christ, then there is a possibility that they will be saved, rather than cut ourselves off from them completely.

Forming common ground is paramount if he wishes to succeed.This is why (if he has stated) that Allah is the same God that we Christians worship; thus planting the seed.

That is my opinion.

 

[KingTheoden]

Remember in Acts that Paul went to Athens and noticed that there was worship place to ‘the unknown god.’ Paul took this to mean that the Greeks were worshiping the one true God, and did not even know it.

So, in that sense, Islam is worshiping the one true God, but incorrectly. It lacks salvic promise of Christ.

We need to spread the faith to Muslims and should begin with what unites us (One God, Jesus (though they don’t understand Him correctly), the Virgin Mary).

 

[jam070406]

Remember in Acts that Paul went to Athens and noticed that there was worship place to ‘the unknown god.’ Paul took this to mean that the Greeks were worshiping the one true God, and did not even know it.

So, in that sense, Islam is worshiping the one true God, but incorrectly. It lacks salvic promise of Christ.

We need to spread the faith to Muslims and should begin with what unites us (One God, Jesus (though they don’t understand Him correctly), the Virgin Mary).

There is a distinct difference though, IMHO.

The Greeks had not yet heard about the Divinely revealed Truth of Jesus Christ. Paul was bringing them the message. He revealed what was “unknown” to them.

Muslims know of Jesus. They don’t just merely misunderstand Him, they flat out reject the idea that He is God. You can appease them for a minute by telling them they also worship the One True God but, when it comes to telling them they are incorrect, Mohammad was a false prophet and their book is false, look out!

I agree with the poster that made the point that the Pope may just be being prudent, as to not set off a ticking timebomb. Look what happened when he quoted that Byzantine emperor.

 

[JReducation]

Show me where they said it. I want cold hard proof they said it.

I have read the Koran, (not all mind you). It’s insane.

To sum it up quickly, watch this docco:

“Islam, What the West Needs To Know”

At least youtube it. (here is the link to the firrst part youtube.com/watch?v=mjq5Vi9Gc68 )

Go to post 74 and read the citation from Nostra Aetate

Go to www.vatican.va and open the Vatican II Docs and read Nostra Aetate

Go to Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up Mohammad

Go to EWTN and look up the Pope’s visit to the Middle East, listen to his talks in Jordan

Go to Ut Unum Sint by John Paul II

Go to Crossing The Threshold of Hope by John Paul II

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[1way]

Don’t you think that Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have ever read the Q’ran?

Where did they go wrong? They’re obviously theological scholars, not dummies.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

When I started this thread with the question I had no idea that it would draw such a strong response. The discussion is enlightening … and refreshing in its civility. Proving that it can be done.

I have a friend. He and his family have been Christian missionaries ( not Catholic) among the Muslims of Indonesia for several years. He told me he has found that many Muslims accept Jesus as the true God and that Jesus becomes the focus of their worship when it is simply and clearly brought to their attention that Muslims are instructed to do so in the Koran. After receiving this revelation several Muslims have come to him secretly and told him of the love they have developed for the Savior and the fact that they and their families know the truth. Some express it openly. He told me of one tiny little Muslim Grandma that tells everyone how good Jesus is and how much he has done for her. The authorities accept her as quaint and harmless. Most are not so forthright. There is a real danger of being harmed or killed for expressing faith in Jesus openly. Until recently, Indonesia has been very tolerant of all religions but a small group of militants have been establishing themselves as a force to contend with and people have become fearful of being targeted. My friend confided that he knows many true believers that follow the Muslim rituals yet raise their hearts to Jesus when they kneel with their brothers at the Mosque.
Here is a link that describes what Muslim converts to Christianity must endure. They are true to the sufferings of the Savior.
answering-islam.org/Testimonies/index.html

 

[spankyg]

Go to post 74 and read the citation from Nostra Aetate

Go to www.vatican.va and open the Vatican II Docs and read Nostra Aetate

Go to Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up Mohammad

Go to EWTN and look up the Pope’s visit to the Middle East, listen to his talks in Jordan

Go to Ut Unum Sint by John Paul II

Go to Crossing The Threshold of Hope by John Paul II

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks mate.

 

[1way]

Go to post 74 and read the citation from Nostra Aetate

Go to www.vatican.va and open the Vatican II Docs and read Nostra Aetate

Go to Catechism of the Catholic Church and look up Mohammad

Go to EWTN and look up the Pope’s visit to the Middle East, listen to his talks in Jordan

Go to Ut Unum Sint by John Paul II

Go to Crossing The Threshold of Hope by John Paul II

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I will search the references that you post above as time permits. I thank you as well.

in the mean time…

A followup question comes to mind as I read the discussion.
It has to do with what is written in the book of James.

“You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”
James 2:19

The question is. What effect will the Pope’s focus on one God have on the fact that salvation can only be found in God’s Son. The impression I get is that the Pope is implying that , in the final analysis, it really makes no difference what faith you adhere to. As long as a person acknowledges God the Father its all good.
I get the impression that the underlying reason for the Pope’s focus on God as the father of Christians and Muslims is social and political… not so much spiritual.
Im in no way trying to be malicious but a legitimate thought could be raised for the sake of discussion. That being… If belief in one God is the criteria then even demons qualify. My point (and, I think, the point expressed in the Book of James as well) is that there is a lot more to true faith that leads to salvation than belief in God.

I guess my original question could be clarified by restating it in this way:
Is the Pope saying that it is just as valid to practice the Muslim faith as it is to be a Christian/ Catholic in the eyes of God.

 

[KingTheoden]

There is a distinct difference though, IMHO.

The Greeks had not yet heard about the Divinely revealed Truth of Jesus Christ. Paul was bringing them the message. He revealed what was “unknown” to them.

Muslims know of Jesus. They don’t just merely misunderstand Him, they flat out reject the idea that He is God. You can appease them for a minute by telling them they also worship the One True God but, when it comes to telling them they are incorrect, Mohammad was a false prophet and their book is false, look out!

I agree with the poster that made the point that the Pope may just be being prudent, as to not set off a ticking timebomb. Look what happened when he quoted that Byzantine emperor.

I can’t disagree with this (I know, double negative! Awaiting citation from Grammar Police!). Sometimes ecumenical concerns cause us to lose sight of the fact that when one rejects Christ (and His Church), that person is rejecting Truth (and what he commanded us to build).

I agree that there are diplomatic concerns. There is little doubt that the Pope would prefer to avoid domestic unrest due to a tough (but entirely accurate) comment.

 

[KingTheoden]

I guess my original question could be clarified by restating it in this way:
Is the Pope saying that it is just as valid to practice the Muslim faith as it is to be a Christian/ Catholic in the eyes of God.

That is certainly not what I am getting from his comments. Clearly, such a position would not reconcile with our faith.

 

[1way]

I agree with the poster that made the point that the Pope may just be being prudent, as to not set off a ticking timebomb. Look what happened when he quoted that Byzantine emperor.

I agree also.

The Pope is mending fences.
My concern is the unintended consequences.
Publicly equating Christianity with Islam is painful to watch.

 

[Stylites]

Publicly equating Christianity with Islam is painful to watch.

No one is equating these two religions, at least here on this thread, are they? The issue is God, not the institutionalization Divine wisdom.

 

[1way]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1way
I guess my original question could be clarified by restating it in this way:
Is the Pope saying that it is just as valid to practice the Muslim faith as it is to be a Christian/ Catholic in the eyes of God.

That is certainly not what I am getting from his comments. Clearly, such a position would not reconcile with our faith.

Would you agree that the Pope’s intention in making the connection between Islam and Catholicism was social/political and not spiritual?

More to the point … saying what the Muslims want to hear will placate the Muslims that are ready to cut off a Christian head at the drop of a hat. Even if it is a thin, transparent statement.

 

[rinnie]

Yes we both believe God to be the God of Abraham!

 

[1way]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1way
Publicly equating Christianity with Islam is painful to watch.

No one is equating these two religions, at least here on this thread, are they? The issue is God, not the institutionalization Divine wisdom.

Respectfully…

How is Islam wrong then… if they are worshiping the Christian God?

 

[pnewton]

Muslims know of Jesus. They don’t just merely misunderstand Him, they flat out reject the idea that He is God.

Knowing when a misunderstanding becomes a rejection is a judgment reserved to God alone. The situation is not the exact same as St. Paul face, as few situations are. However the similarities that establish the principles may exist. After all, what is of greater importance, knowing the name of God or knowing the nature of God? It may well be that most Muslims are in greater ignorance than the Greeks.

In any case, the Holy Father’s statement didn’t happen in a theological vacuum as it seems to some.

 

[KingTheoden]

Would you agree that the Pope’s intention in making the connection between Islam and Catholicism was social/political and not spiritual?

More to the point … saying what the Muslims want to hear will placate the Muslims that are ready to cut off a Christian head at the drop of a hat. Even if it is a thin, transparent statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1way
Publicly equating Christianity with Islam is painful to watch.

Respectfully…

How is Islam wrong then… if they are worshiping the Christian God?

They might be worshiping the one true God, but not correctly or completely. For example, they deny two of His aspects (Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ). They also use uninspired texts to arrive at their method of worshiping God; some are fine enough (praying daily) and then some are frankly quite bizzare (I don’t mean this in a mean sense at all. But I think we have to be honest and acknowledge that Mohammed apparently commanded some strange things like the breast feeding of adult men).

Remember, Islam is a huge minority in Europe. If the Pope were to go into a long explication about how the Koran is a seriously corrupted form of the Bible, that Mohammed did various things quite uncouth, and that Islam arrives at a partially correct conclusion (one true God, eternal) but for wrong reasons, AND that it has used warfare as a primary means of spreading the religion…

Well, we saw what happened in France three years ago after the tragic death of two Muslim youths when there was just a hint of police error.

 

[jam070406]

Knowing when a misunderstanding becomes a rejection is a judgment reserved to God alone.

I understand your point, of course God is the judge, I wasn’t basing it on individual belief but the words that come out of the Koran. Perhaps I should’ve been clearer on that.

And yes it’s about the nature of God, which is falsely portayed in the Koran. Distorted to the point of it not being the same God.
If there are Muslims that have never read the Koran then I could understand the comparison or similarity to the Greeks.
The Geeks didn’t have a book that denied Christ as God though. (at least that I’m aware of)
So I think it’s a entirely different scenario, IMHO.

 

[jam070406]

Here is a question:
Why is that we can say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God but we often hear the Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian? In other words, they don’t truly follow Christ but a false Christ. They are worshipping Jesus incorrectly or incompletely much like Muslims worship the Father incorrectly or incompletely.
Just a thought. Not to cause trouble or conflict, I genuinely ask.

 

[pnewton]

And yes it’s about the nature of God, which is falsely portayed in the Koran. Distorted to the point of it not being the same God.
If there are Muslims that have never read the Koran then I could understand the comparison or similarity to the Greeks.
The Geeks didn’t have a book that denied Christ as God though. (at least that I’m aware of)
So I think it’s a entirely different scenario, IMHO.

Yes, and the Greeks should be even worse off. After all, since it is about the nature of God, their pantheon included many Gods. So while they would not have much of a problem excepting Jesus as God as Muslims, their definition of the unknown god, would be but one of a demigod.

Distorted to the point of it not being the same God.

I think this issue is why the question is more academic or semantic than of substance. How distorted is too distorted that we must use language to specify that the God one person recognizes is different. Most people think the pagans had a more distorted view of God than the Muslims; the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are more distorted than Protestants who are more distorted than Catholics. Do none of the above worship God but Catholics?