Differences between Catholic faith and Baptist?

[Katholikos]

Man is totally depraved and has not the capacity to regenerate himself. God must do this.

This is a belief which originated in the 16th century. It is not shared by Catholics, whose Faith comes from the Apostles.

Those who cannot confess - infants, mentally disabled, etc. are covered by God’s grace. Since they are unable even if they tried, God will perform righteous judgement and declare them as His own.

Where is this found in the Bible? You’re a Sola Scriptura guy, aren’t you?

There is no more need for Christ to be sacrificed. He has entered the Holy of Holies once and for all.

“Sacrificing Christ again” is what [most] Protestants believe takes place in the Catholic Church. It isn’t true.

Recommended reading: Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, by David Currie - available here:

catholicfreeshipping.com/Products/cfs_gensym-38.html

or here:

amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/089870569X?v=glance

JMJ Jay

 

[eleusis]

ahimsaman72:

As a life-long baptist I can honestly say I’ve never heard anyone call a catholic a “non-Christian”. My pastors have always taught that people from all walks of life and many denominations would make it to heaven, including catholics. Unless this happened to you personally or is verifiable by someone close to you I would say this is a generalization and should not be repeated because my experience has not been so.
Christians.

I am currently is a very vociferous debate at work with a Baptist who straight up believes that I am not a Christian because I am Catholic and believes that I am going to Hell.

Does anyone know where I can find the vatican II writings about salvation outside the Catholic Church which basically reverses the Council of Trent.

Anyway, sorry sir but you may be a charitable Baptist but they ain’t all like you.
Cheers,

 

[mayra_hart]

i wonder why they always approach you with this question: "when you die, and jesus ask you at the gates of heaven,"why should i let you into my heaven? what will you say? at the time i only answer well i hope i have done a lot of good deeds. you don’t know but that morning talking with my baptist friend was a nightmare. this was the first time i was ask this question. and i felt so ignorance because i didn’t have the right answer. then she jump to the why pray for mary, and idolatry. and the same felt like a little worm in a chicken dance. after that i went online and search for answer i made copies of all of it an give it to her. i don’t know if she read it but since them our friendship have change so much.

 

[Katholikos]

eleusis:

I am currently is a very vociferous debate at work with a Baptist who straight up believes that I am not a Christian because I am Catholic and believes that I am going to Hell.

Does anyone know where I can find the vatican II writings about salvation outside the Catholic Church which basically reverses the Council of Trent.

Anyway, sorry sir but you may be a charitable Baptist but they ain’t all like you.
Cheers,

Whoa, Nellie. Vatican II does not reverse Trent. The decisions of an Ecumenical Council are irreversible. The decisions of the Council of Trent are as valid today as they were in 1563 when it ended.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, #846, 847, 848. The VII teaching is in Lumen Gentium (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church). See also the VII document, Gaudium et Spes (the Church in the Modern World).

The Catholic Church, which was founded by Christ for the salvation of the world, is adamant – and always has been – that there is no salvation outside the Church (Extra Ecclessiam Nulla Salus). Anyone who is “saved” is saved through the Church, whether they know it or not. But salvation is not restricted only to Catholics, or even to Christians.

The CCC (with a search engine) can be read on line at scborromeo.org/ccc.htm -or-

kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/index.cfm

The Documents of Vatican II can be read on line here:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

mayra hart:

i wonder why they always approach you with this question: "when you die, and jesus ask you at the gates of heaven,"why should i let you into my heaven? what will you say? at the time i only answer well i hope i have done a lot of good deeds. you don’t know but that morning talking with my baptist friend was a nightmare. this was the first time i was ask this question. and i felt so ignorance because i didn’t have the right answer. then she jump to the why pray for mary, and idolatry. and the same felt like a little worm in a chicken dance. after that i went online and search for answer i made copies of all of it an give it to her. i don’t know if she read it but since them our friendship have change so much.

Baptists and other Protestants have this line memorized. It’s one of the “gotcha” tricks that they like to spring on Catholics.

[Most] Baptists believe in Once Saved Always Saved and Presbyterians believe in Perseverance of Saints – both mean the same thing, that once you are “saved” you can’t lose your salvation – or in the case of Presbyterians, that the “elect” can’t lose their salvation. Many other Protestants (but by no means all of them) believe in “instant salvation” – pray the “sinner’s prayer” or “accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” and you’re guaranteed heaven forever (if you’re really sincere). Of course, if you later lose faith in Christ, then you really weren’t saved after all, and weren’t really sincere. So you didn’t “get saved” after all, even though you thought you were. But as long as you believe, it doesn’t matter if you commit adultery or murder a thousand times a day, nothing will separate you from Christ (Luther’s words). :whacky:

To the Protestant who asks this question, the “correct” answer would be along the lines of: I have accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior; therefore, I know I am going to heaven.

This is more of the “Sola Fide” or we are saved by “Faith Alone” argument. They quote John 3:16 a lot – “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whosoever believes in him might not perish but might have everlasting life.” Of course, that’s not all the Bible says about salvation, but never mind .

The real, biblical answer is:

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

---

Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

This is a belief which originated in the 16th century. It is not shared by Catholics, whose Faith comes from the Apostles.

Actually, it was a belief of the Scripture writers.

Where is this found in the Bible? You’re a Sola Scriptura guy, aren’t you?

God is just - as expressed throughout the Bible. The just God would not condemn infants and mentally diabled to everlasting, fiery torment. So, this is Scriptural.

JMJ Jay

 

[ahimsaman72]

eleusis:

I am currently is a very vociferous debate at work with a Baptist who straight up believes that I am not a Christian because I am Catholic and believes that I am going to Hell.

Does anyone know where I can find the vatican II writings about salvation outside the Catholic Church which basically reverses the Council of Trent.

Anyway, sorry sir but you may be a charitable Baptist but they ain’t all like you.
Cheers,

This is unfortunate. I’m sorry to hear that. I’m rather open-minded and consider you part of the family - of which family all of us consist who profess Christ as Saviour.

 

[mercygate]

ahimsaman72:

This is unfortunate. I’m sorry to hear that. I’m rather open-minded and consider you part of the family - of which family all of us consist who profess Christ as Saviour.

A very Catholic view of the situation!

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman wrote:

Man is totally depraved and has not the capacity to regenerate himself. God must do this.

I answered:

This is a belief which originated in the 16th century. It is not shared by Catholics, whose Faith comes from the Apostles.

ahimsaman responded:

Actually, it was a belief of the Scripture writers.

From hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/total+depravity

Definition: [n] the Calvinist doctrine that everyone is born in a state of corruption as a result of original sin

Calvinism arose in the 16th century [John Calvin, 1509-74].

ahimsaman wrote:

God is just - as expressed throughout the Bible. The just God would not condemn infants and mentally diabled to everlasting, fiery torment. So, this is Scriptural.

But the Scriptures don’t state this. I agree that it’s implied. But (most) Protestants don’t accept doctrines that are implied or that can be logically deduced from the Scriptures (like Purgatory, for example). They demand chapter and verse. At least that was the case when I was a Southern Baptist!

(Actually, Luther removed the ‘scriptural proof’ of purification of the soul after death from the Bible, to which the Catholic Church had given the name "Purgatory.)

But Protestants, Sola Scriptura notwithstanding, believe all sorts of things that are not found in the Scriptures (e.g., altar calls).

Peace be with you,

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

eleusis:

I am currently is a very vociferous debate at work with a Baptist who straight up believes that I am not a Christian because I am Catholic and believes that I am going to Hell.
. . .
Anyway, sorry sir but you may be a charitable Baptist but they ain’t all like you.
Cheers,

I never knew a Baptist who had anything good to say about Catholics – and I grew up a Southern Baptist in Arizona. My Southern Baptist relatives in Oklahoma held the same views. We used to call Catholics “worse than heathens” and pray for their conversion to the “true Bible faith” because we knew they would burn in hell unless they “got saved” and left the Whore of Babylon. This was taught from the pulpit and in Sunday School.

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-atheist, ex-agnostic, ecstatic to be
Catholic.

 

[Katholikos]

ahimsaman72:

Oh, but there are many verses which explain God’s salvation - and none have to do with men saving themselves. We must decide if God is in control or man is in control. If you say man is in control of his destiny, then God is not all-powerful. If man can control his own life, then God is finite and is just an exalted man (as Mormons claim).

ahimsaman, I’m curious as to what you were thinking when you wrote this. All Christians, by definition, believe they are saved by Christ. He is the Redeemer. What church believes men save themselves?

Thanks, Jay

 

[mayra_hart]

going back to my that question it sound like a contest or as a kind of quiz. get the right answer an you are in! what a question jesus nowhere implies that judgment will be a quiz in which the correct answer gets you in and the wrong one forces you out. perhaps someone has been watching too many game shows on television. “wheel of fortune” has nothing to do with entering heaven. so i wonder is i been faithful for 40 years of my live an one day i wake up an decide to killed a few people , because i have faith i will be save??? no matter??? an again i wonder???

 

[Des]

Katholikos:

I grew up a Southern Baptist in Arizona.

I’m impressed Katholikos. I myself was born a raised Catholic so I admire you cause it shows how you took God’s Graces in leading you to the Truth, and ran with them back to His Church. You did not reject, but accept them with your own free will. That’s something to be proud of.

 

[catholicconvert]

First, while Baptist are Christians (sadly few reciprocate the feeling), Catholics have the FULL gospel. I suggest you read Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie. Currie is a former Baptist who wrote his account to explain to puzzled and stumped Baptist family members why he’d become Catholic. He gives an great theological/historical chain, fully scriptural, why going to full Chrisitanity (Catholic) is better than the glitter of pyrate (sp?) with only trace gold contained. Another book that is a must read is Steve Ray’s book Crossing The Tiber, where he shows that the idea that communion and baptism are “only symbolic” is to mangle the biblical record. Ray’s website is www.catholic-convert.com

In case you are curious, I used to be Southern Baptist, and my family still is.

 

[mayra_hart]

to catholicconvert: it took me a bible study invitation by baptist for me to get to know more about how to been catholic. the sad thing that she is my neighbor an since then the relation have change. my experience was not good i got question about my faith. an for me this was a new game. well since then i got a few books from scott hahn to david currie which help a lot. one since that i wonder is how does people who have been fundamentalist for years suddenly get up one day an realize that the truth is in the catholic church. maybe you can explain that to me. bless you.

 

[Katholikos]

Des:

I’m impressed Katholikos. I myself was born a raised Catholic so I admire you cause it shows how you took God’s Graces in leading you to the Truth, and ran with them back to His Church. You did not reject, but accept them with your own free will. That’s something to be proud of.

Thanks . But it’s no credit to me. It was only by the grace of God. Praise and exalt Him forever!

I LOVE THIS CHURCH!

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[Des]

Katholikos:

Thanks . But it’s no credit to me. It was only by the grace of God. Praise and exalt Him forever!

I LOVE THIS CHURCH!

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

You are correct. None of us would be Catholic if not for the Grace of God.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

ahimsaman, I’m curious as to what you were thinking when you wrote this. All Christians, by definition, believe they are saved by Christ. He is the Redeemer. What church believes men save themselves?

Thanks, Jay

You either believe in God’s sovereignty in man’s salvation or man’s sovereignty in his salvation.

All who follow man’s sovereignty (I live a good life - confess mortal sins, etc. etc, followed the ten commandments, etc) would be many Baptists, Catholics, any denomination you want to bring up.

Or, you believe in God’s sovereignty (He predistines and elects whom He will - believer naturally follows) which is adhered to by some Baptists, Christian Reformed, etc.

It is either by works or grace.

I contest it is grace.

“For by grace are ye saved…” Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[ahimsaman72]

Katholikos:

But the Scriptures don’t state this. I agree that it’s implied. But (most) Protestants don’t accept doctrines that are implied or that can be logically deduced from the Scriptures (like Purgatory, for example). They demand chapter and verse. At least that was the case when I was a Southern Baptist!

(Actually, Luther removed the ‘scriptural proof’ of purification of the soul after death from the Bible, to which the Catholic Church had given the name "Purgatory.)

But Protestants, Sola Scriptura notwithstanding, believe all sorts of things that are not found in the Scriptures (e.g., altar calls).

Peace be with you,

JMJ Jay

Total Depravity:

Romans 3:11
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Election of God’s people:

Ephesians 1:4-5

1. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
   
   Romans 8:30
3. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This teaching is Biblical as Paul preached it and is well before John Calvin.

Many things are implied - the Trinity is also implied, though not explicit. Protestants accept teachings as long as they can be deduced from Scripture. In the protestant mind, purgatory cannot be deduced from Scripture because there is not enough evidence to support that view. The best proof-text for it lies in Maccabees which is not accepted as binding on matters of doctrine.

Altar calls can be deduced from Scripture - because the principle is there. It is not stated - “thou shalt have altar calls and the pastor must use x + Y formula in doing so.” Of course not.
It’s simply another opportunity for people to confess their sins and pray to God for mercy and salvation (which you would agree are Biblical). So, altar calls are Biblical - because they are based on Biblical principles.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

mayra hart:

going back to my that question it sound like a contest or as a kind of quiz. get the right answer an you are in! what a question jesus nowhere implies that judgment will be a quiz in which the correct answer gets you in and the wrong one forces you out. perhaps someone has been watching too many game shows on television. “wheel of fortune” has nothing to do with entering heaven. so i wonder is i been faithful for 40 years of my live an one day i wake up an decide to killed a few people , because i have faith i will be save??? no matter??? an again i wonder???

In the Reformed belief of God’s sovereignty, God’s extent of grace is elevated to meet any need (even in the case of a faithful person committing murder), whereas others may elevate man’s goodness/badness to a level that God’s grace cannot redeem him.

Do you see the difference?

Murder is a mortal sin in the Catholic tradition and forgivable, is it not? Also, adultery is mortal, is it not? Is it not forgivable?

So, we have to not classify sin so easily. It is all to be classified as sin - it all offends God.