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bear06
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What about it? The Mass of the Roman rite that I attend every week has it.
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Uxor
Guest
Thank-you…finally I know what you guys have against the TLM.Oh my goodness. It’s hard to type when I’m laughing so much.
Uxor, Bill Grossklas who runs the site I quoted from is a traditionalist and former SSPXer. Hardly a leftist. You might want to do some research before you level charges. I don’t know too many leftist that support the Tridentine Mass (although, surprisingly, I have heard of a few). This isn’t the first time you’ve done this.
BTW, if you’ll notice, it was Justin Martyr that the author of the article was quoting. Is JM a leftist too?Mike Aquilina who is published by OSV is also hardly a leftist. Can you honestly tell me that you know any of the above to be a leftist? This rather sounds like slander and detraction to sway people from actually studying what Justin Martyr said about the Mass.
As far as the Mass of all ages…Isn’t the Mass instituted at the Last Supper the Mass of all ages? Again, it wasn’t the TLM.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
First, yes, absolutely, THAT’S the Mass I believe Christ instituted.
Second, I guess I’m a little taken aback, because the standard “traditionalist” argument is “of course, the Apostles received in the hand, they were bishops and priests, all bishops and priests have always handled the Sacrament. It’s forbidden to the laity.” Of course, it isn’t forbidden AND we’ve no way of precisely knowing whether it was originally in the hand or on the tongue (though we do know the Apostolic/Patristic Church practiced reception in the hand).
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
What do we have against the TLM?!?!?
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Ghosty
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The essential core is shared by the Tridentine, the Divine Liturgy, the Pauline (Novus Ordo), and all other Eucharistic celebrations. That core is the Eucharistic celebration itself.
Peace and God bless!
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Uxor
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You make a valid point that the Apostles received in the hand. Again what I have read…don’t have access to it right now.
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Uxor
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I read that site last night…I was not impressed.
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bear06
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What are you talking about?! I don’t have anything against the TLM. Please tell me what I have against it? You won’t find one post in my almost 3,000 that shows any animosity towards it. This pure fantasy on your part. :whacky:
My Church has a TLM and I love the priest that got it for us. I promote it and fully support it. If you’re going to level charges, you might at least support them.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Uxor, dear sister in Christ, I have been on these fora for a long time. I have never said one irreverent word about the Tridentine Mass promulgated by Pope St. Pius V. Not one. I’ve defended the Pauline Mass, I’ve defended the use of the vernacular, I’ve defended the authority of the Popes and Vatican II to govern and alter the liturgy, but I have never once disparged or slighted or offered the slightest insult to the Pian Rite. I wouldn’t because it is a Holy Mass, confecting the Holy Sacrifice.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2032114&postcount=45
Kindly note where I say “It is, indeed, a venerable rite worthy of love and reverence.”
I’ve also never heard Bear, or Ghosty, or ANYONE who’s answered you on this thread, offer the slightest insult to the Pian Mass.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2032114&postcount=45
Kindly note where I say “It is, indeed, a venerable rite worthy of love and reverence.”
I’ve also never heard Bear, or Ghosty, or ANYONE who’s answered you on this thread, offer the slightest insult to the Pian Mass.
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Uxor
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Your words—>Again, it wasn’t the TLM.
When you made that statement it says to me that Christ had nothing to do with it, man-made, not valid, I don’t know. I’ve never heard anyone ever say that, ever. I believe it was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper, handed down by the Apostles and their successors. It was organically grown, yes there were additions, things moved around, but it leads back to the Last Supper and consists of the very words of Christ.
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Uxor
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Ok, than I than I misunderstand what you are saying.
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JKirkLVNV
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I’m glad we cleared that up, then.
Good night, Mass is early in the morning and I’m off to bed.
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bear06
Guest
Maybe you should read our quotes in their full context. It’s like you only read 6 words.
Uh, maybe you never read my first post that you responded to.
Again, read my first quote. You applied the term “Traditional Mass”. I think we’ve all asked at one point or another what you meant by this and you didn’t answer. And then YOU chose to apply your own interpretation of what we said when we pretty much said the same thing you said above. The Mass is the same Mass of the Last Supper regardless of the changes it’s undergone over the centuries. It’s like you didn’t bother to read anyone else’s posts and then went on to attack all of us and call our sources leftist without even checking to make sure if that was true.
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Uxor
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Maybe you should go back and read…when I replied to Kirk on the Tridentine Mass, I responded to him about the Tridentine Mass as the Traditional Mass. The Tridentine Mass is the Traditional Mass. He kept up with the conversation and from his responses he knew what I was talking about.Maybe you should read our quotes in their full context. It’s like you only read 6 words.
Uh, maybe you never read my first post that you responded to.
Again, read my first quote. You applied the term “Traditional Mass”. I think we’ve all asked at one point or another what you meant by this and you didn’t answer. And then YOU chose to apply your own interpretation of what we said when we pretty much said the same thing you said above. The Mass is the same Mass of the Last Supper regardless of the changes it’s undergone over the centuries. It’s like you didn’t bother to read anyone else’s posts and then went on to attack all of us and call our sources leftist without even checking to make sure if that was true.
You are the one that said the Traditional Mass is not the Tridentine Mass, nor the one instituted by Christ, did you not? Then you say the Mass is the same Mass of the Last Supper regardless of changes…I guess that means the N.O. but not the Tridentine Mass according to your comments.
It isn’t our source, it was your source, which is not crediable to me. I told you I had previously viewed the site. I rather read church documents than someone I perceive that has an axe to grind.
Again just going by what you stated, the Traditional Mass is the Mass that Christ instituted, which would include the N.O. Mass but doesn’t include the Tridentine Mass/Traditional Mass. Who is trying to trick who?
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Uxor
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I want you to know I went by the site you say is not leftist again…Here is some of what they had to say…ROTFLMaybe you should read our quotes in their full context. It’s like you only read 6 words.
Uh, maybe you never read my first post that you responded to.
Again, read my first quote. You applied the term “Traditional Mass”. I think we’ve all asked at one point or another what you meant by this and you didn’t answer. And then YOU chose to apply your own interpretation of what we said when we pretty much said the same thing you said above. The Mass is the same Mass of the Last Supper regardless of the changes it’s undergone over the centuries. It’s like you didn’t bother to read anyone else’s posts and then went on to attack all of us and call our sources leftist without even checking to make sure if that was true.
Without permission, Lefebvre established his first seminary in Econe, Switzerland. Also known is that:
at one of the Society schools, girls were told that it was a mortal sin to have any lace on their underwear
in a sermon, people were told not to vote in elections and that it was wrong for women to drive cars
a student at the Society high school in St. Mary’s, Kansas, was kicked out of school simply because he had the picture of a girl, also a student, in his wallet although the two had only written to each other;
about 1987 the Society began to openly display an anti-American attitude - condemning the nature and form of our government;
children are told, without distinction, to always obey priests and nuns even if it conflicts with the proper wishes of their parents;
To further show the anti-Catholic nature of the Society, one example should suffice
What a bunch of “hogwash” And this is where you get your info at regarding the Traditional Mass? Talk about wacky! LOL!!!
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
The one disciple explicitly described as touching the bread was the one who betrayed Him.
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Malcolm_McLean
Guest
Tolstoy said that each happy family is alike, but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. I don’t think this is really true. There are many ways of being a Catholic. For instance a nun may be active, like Mother Teresa of Calcutta, or contemplative like Therese of Liseaux, or a reformer type figure, like Theresa of Avila.
The change from Mass facing the altar to mass facing the people changed the symbolism of the Mass, from priest as first man in the congregation to priest as the one who presents the mysteries to the faithful. A priest is and always will be both. He is man, and much more similar to the rest of the congregation than to God. On the other hand he does in a real sense take on the role of Christ. So there is no right way for him to face in an absolute sense. However you could argue that when we have a fairly uncatechised laity largely ignorant of biblical languages and of theology, and a highly trained and generally very committed priesthood, as at present, facing the people is more appropriate. You could also argue that we are making unwise demands of our priests and NO is too dependent on the priest’s personality.
However there is room in the church for many types of priest, just as there is room for many different nuns.
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Malcolm_McLean
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Jesus obviously wouldn’t have celebrated Mass according to the rules of the Council of Trent. The language would almost certainly have been Hebrew, certainly we know that Psalms were sung and these would not have been in Aramaic, which was the vernacular (we think).
The wooden drinking cup idea is a Protestant canard. Jesus would have used a Jewish kiddush cup, which was elaborate and made of precious metals. Depending on their financial resources, either silver or gold.
I strongly suspect that bread and wine were not the only food present. The Last Supper would have been a ritual evening meal. Modern Jews traditionally start with soup. I could quite possibly have been a Passover meal, in which case there would have been eggs and bitter herbs and the other elements of the meal. So the bread would have been consumed as the staple. However we don’t know that for sure.
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guanophore
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I have heard that. I also heard that WW I was the “war to end all wars”. Did that make it so?
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bear06
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Well, your guess would be wrong. It wasn’t the Tridentine or the Novus Ordo in format. If you read my very first post I said:
What axe does he have to grind. His goal is to prevent someone from falling into the SSPX schism. This is a bad thing? Please.
Who, besides you, calls the Last Supper the Traditional Mass? The TLM is often referred to as the Traditional Mass, not the Last Supper. We asked you if you were speaking of the TLM or THE Mass and you didn’t answer before you went on the attack.
And please, provide some quotes from me where I said that the Novus Ordo was the Mass at the Last Supper but the Tridentine wasn’t? Neither* format *was at the Last Supper. As you have managed to correctly state, the core of the Canon is in all of the Roman rite. Where did I say otherwise? You seem to want us to be pit one Mass against another which we wouldn’t do.
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