Discourse with Mormons

[AmandaPS]

Here’s another quote I found in the Doctrine & Covenants that make men who attain the celestial kingdom equal with God.

D&C 76:92-95
92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all things – where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;
93 Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever.
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;
95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

How can man, a created being, ever be equal in power with God?

 

[Katholikos]

TOm wrote:

Catholics believe that men may become gods as I read Catholic theology. See this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1624

Hey, Catholics,

Everybody who believes that men may become gods, or was ever taught such a doctrine, or if such an idea has ever even been suggested to you by anyone having any authority whatsoever in the Catholic Church, raise your hand. Looking out over the audience, I don’t see a single one . . .

TOm, why do you keep insisting that we believe this when we absolutely do not! You are misinterpreting Catholic doctrine and belief.

“As you read Catholic theology” is NOT the way the Church wrote it. You are getting out of Catholic teaching a meaning that was never put into it.

Sometimes we believe what we want to believe, see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear.

The process you are using is called EISOGESIS – i.e., reading into a document something that is not there. Imposing an erroneous interpretation. Finding the wrong meaning in words, a meaning that was never intended by the writer or speaker. In 2,000 years, the Catholic Church has never taught this.

 

[dutch]

I think you’re wasting your time trying to reason with TOm. There’s no logic involved in their conviction that Mormonism is the truth. It’s based on feelings and this is why TOm is trying to say we believe something that we don’t. If you criticize their religion, they feel that they are suffering unjustly and for them this is a reward.

Mormonism is full of so many lies and contradictions that they can’t use reason as a justification of their faith. It shows you how people will believe anything and reason and faith must work together to discern the truth.

I’m sorry if I offend anyone and I hope TOm realizes one day that Mormonism is a complete sham.

 

[AugustineH354]

Katholikos:

Hey, Catholics,

Everybody who believes that men may become gods, or was ever taught such a doctrine, or if such an idea has ever even been suggested to you by anyone having any authority whatsoever in the Catholic Church, raise your hand. Looking out over the audience, I don’t see a single one . . .

Hmmm…have you actually read some of the quotes that Tom provided? Truth be known, most of the quotes provided by Tom were originally posted by me on another message board. I have been compiling an ever growing list of Catholic Saints, Bishops, and theologians who clearly teach that redeemed mankind become gods by grace (i.e. deification). Do to post limits I can only provide part of my list:

God, says St. Peter “has given us most great and precious promises that by these you may be made partarkers of the Divine nature (2 Pet. i. 4). Startling as the words are, the teaching which we have already considered will have prepared us for them. They signify that the sonship conferred on us through Jesus Christ raises us so far above our creaturely condition, that by it we partake in the life which is proper to the Three Divine Persons in virtue of Their nature. The passage does not stand altogether alone. When our Lord prays to His Father on behalf of the apostles and all who through their word should believe in Him, “that they all many be one, as Thou, Father in Me and I in Thee, that they may be made perfect in one” (John xvii. 22, 23), His words can hardly signify less than this. If our union with God is comparable to that which unites the Father and the Son, it can only be a union bases on a share in the Divine life…The fathers of the Church from the earliest times with one consent take the apostle’s words in their literal sense. There is no question of any figurative interpretation. They do not hesitate to speak of the “deification” of man. By grace, they tell us, men become gods. (G.H. Joyce, S.J., The Catholic Doctrine of Grace, London: 1920, pp. 34, 35)>>

The Church prays in the Offertory of the Holy Mass : “Grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His divinity, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity.” Similarly in the Preface of the Feast of Christ’s Ascension into Heaven : “He was assumed into Heaven in order that we might be partakers in His divinity.” Cf. D 1021.

According to 2 Peter 1, 4 the Christian is elevated to participation in the Divine nature…Again, the scriptural texts which represent justification as generation or birth from God (John 1, 12 et seq. ; 3, 5 ; 1 John 3, 1. 9 ; Tit. 3. 5 ; James 1, 18 ; 1 Peter 1, 23), indirectly teach the participation of man in the Divine nature, as generation consists in the communication of the nature of the generator to the generated.

From the scriptural texts cited, and from others (Ps. 81, 1. 6 ; John 10, 34 et seq.), the Fathers derived the teaching of the deification of man by grace (theiOis, deificatio). It is a firm conviction of the Fathers that God became man so that man might become God, that is, defied. (Dr. Lugwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 256 - German ed. 1952; English 1955.)>>

Deus, qui humanae substantiae dignitatem mirabiliter condidisti, et mirabilius reformasti: da nobis per hujus aquae et vini mysterium, ejus divinitatis esse consortes, qui humanitatis nostrae fieri dignatus est particeps, Jesus Christus Filius tuus Dominus noster: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus. per omnia saecula saeculorum. Amen.

O GOD, Who established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity, who has condescended to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Your Son, our Lord: Who with You lives and reigns in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, world without end. Amen. (Saint Joseph Daily Missal, 1961, pp. 660, 661.)>>

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994 edition, p. 116.)>>

Aug

 

[AugustineH354]

More from my list:

If man is to be reunited to God as his Father, God Himself must raise him up again to His side…God must again draw man up to His bosom as His child, regenerate him to new divine life, and again clothe him with the garment of His children, the splendor of His own nature and glory…this transformation of the will is essentially bound up with the inner elevation of our entire being by the grace of divine sonship and participation in the divine nature…The children of God participate as such in the divine holiness of their Father, in His very nature. (Scheeben, The Mysteries of Christianity, B. Herder Book Co.: St. Loius, pp. 615, 616, 617, 619 - emphasis mine - German first ed. 1865; English ed. 1946, translated from the 1941 German ed.)>>

The application of all this to the question of sanctifying grace will be seen more and more as we proceed, but for the present we simply assert the magnificent truth that grace is not only a positive reality in the soul, not only a reality which no created being could produce, but a reality which in itself is higher than the whole order of created things (even angelic) and is truly divine. This brings us at once to a wonderful phrase of St Peter, who says that we are made “partakers of the divine nature.” Catholic theology has ever clung to the belief that here we have no mere figure of speech but the declaration of a definite fact. We really are made to be partakers of the divine nature. It is not merely that our spiritual faculties of intellect and will establish a special likeness to God in our souls; that is true enough, but over and above this natural likeness to God a wholly supernatural quality is given to us which makes us to be of the same nature as God…St Augustine puts the matter thus: He descended that we might ascend, and “whilst retaining his own divine nature he partook of our human nature, that we whilst keeping our own nature, might become partakers of his.” St Thomas Aquinas, echoing the constant teaching of the past, declares in a passage which the Church uses for the feast of Corpus Christi: “the only-begotten Son of God, wishing to make us partakers of his own divinity, took upon himself our human nature that having become man he might make men to be gods.” And we know how the Church has enshrined this wonderful truth in one of the most beautiful of the prayers at Mass. “O God, who in creating human nature, didst marvellously ennoble it, and hast still more marvellously renewed it, grant that by the mysery of this water and wine we may be made partakers of his Godhead, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, thy Son, our Lord.” (The Teaching of the Catholic Church, edited by Canon George D. Smith, 1960, volume 1, pp. 553, 554.)>>

Both St John and St Paul exult in proclaiming this act of divine condescension. “Dearly beloved,” the first writes with all the earnestness of the disciple of love, “we are now the sons of God: and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know that when he shall appear we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. And everyone that hath this hope in him sanctifieth himself.”…In light of such luminous teaching it is clear that is in a very special sense that we are children of God…Sanctifying grace, as we have seen, is a positive reality infused into the soul by which we are made to share the divine life…By sanctifying grace the very life of God is imparted unto them. (Ibid. pp. 556, 557.)>>

This is the central truth of all Christian soteriology that finds an organic unity with the revealed reality of the God-Man. God became man that man could truly participate in the life of God—so that, indeed, in a certain sense, he could become God. The Fathers of the Church had a clear consciousness of this fact. It is sufficient to recall St. Irenaeus who, in his exhortations to imitate Christ, the only sure teacher, declared: “Through the immense love he bore, he became what we are, thereby affording us the opportunity of becoming what he is.” (John Paul II, Jesus, Son and Savior, 1996, p. 215 - General audience address September 2, 1987.)>>

Aug

 

[AugustineH354]

In addition to my list of more recent Catholics who teach deification, I have also compiled a much more extensive list of Church Fathers who have taught the doctrine of deification. Do to posting limits, I can only provide a few at this time:

---

****Justin **- 1st Ap. **And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue.(ANF 1.170).

**Justin - Dial. 124 **…thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods”, and of having power to become sons of the Highest.(ANF 1.262).

**Justin - Discourse To The Greeks 5 **The Word exercises an influence which does not make poets: it does not equip philosophers nor skilled orators, but by its instruction it makes mortals immortal, mortals god. (ANF 1.272)

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.19.1 **He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality.(ANF 1.448). [See also 3.6.1]

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4/ 4.1.1 **…there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.(ANF 1.463).

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 **… how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man?(ANF 1.507).

**Irenaeus - Adv. 4.20.4 Now this is His Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, who in the last times was made a man among men, that He might join the end to the beginning, that is, man to God.(ANF 1.488).[see also 4.20.5-6]

**Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref **…the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.(ANF 1.526).

**Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 **Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. …He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. … keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God.(ANF 2.105).

To be continued…

 

[AugustineH354]

**Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 **…the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. (ANF 2.174).

**Clement of Alexandria - The Instructor 3.1 **It is then, as appears, the greatest of al lessons to know one’s self. For if one know himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God…But that man with whom the Word dwells does not alter himself, does not get himself up: he has the form which is of the Word; he is made like to God…and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, “Men are gods, and gods are men.” (ANF 2.271).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 4.23 On this wise it is possible for the [true] Gnostic already to have become God. “I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” (ANF 2.437).

**Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 6.14 **By thus receiving the Lord’s power, the soul studies to be God; …To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord himself taught.(ANF 2.506).

**Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.10 **…they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour. (ANF 2.539).

**Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 7.16 **But he who has returned from this deception, on hearing the Scriptures, and turned his life to the truth, is, as it were, from being a man made a god.(ANF 2.551)

**Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.30 **And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For thou hast become God: for whatever sufferings thou didst undergo while being a man, these He gave to thee, because thou wast of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon thee, because thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality. …For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish aught of the dignity of His divine perfection; having made thee even God unto His glory!(ANF 5.153).

**Hippolytus - Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 **If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead.(ANF 5.236).

Cyprian - Treatise 6.11 Therefore of this mercy and grace the Word and Son of God is sent as the dispenser and master, who by all the prophets of old was announced as the enlightener and teacher of the human race. He is the power of God,He is the reason, He is His wisdom and glory; He enters into a virgin; with the co-operation of the Holy Spirit, He is endued with flesh; God is mingled with man. This is our God, this is Christ, who, as the mediator of the two, puts on man that He may lead them to the Father. What man is, Christ was willing to be, that man may be what Christ is. (ANF 5.468).

Methodius - On the Passion of Christ 2 For the Word suffered, being in the flesh affixed to the cross, that He might bring man, who had been deceived by error, to His supreme and godlike majesty. (ANF 6.400).

Lactantius - The Divine Institutes 6.23 If anyone can incline toward this and strive after it, the Lord will own him as a servant, the Master will acknowledge this man as His disciple. The man will triumph over the earth. He will be exactly similar to God (hic erit consimilis Deo) who has embraced the virtue of God. (Latin text ANF 7.190).

**Athanasius - De Incarnation 54 **For He was made man that we might be made God. (PNF, 2nd series, 4.65).

To be continued…

 

[dutch]

The best way to get your point across with Mormons is not to debate about specific doctrines because people can misinterpret anything from the bible but to attack the roots or foundation of their faith. Joseph Smith should be the topic because if you can discredit his integrity, they have nothing to stand on. Don’t get sidetracked on debating their goofy theology.

For example, the guy had like 30 or so wives, he married a women who was already married, he was a salesman like Mohamed of Islam and Russell of the JW, it’s proven he’s deceived and lied to people regarding the source of “A pearl of great price”,… etc… There is a ton of info on how the guy was a complete fraud. I’m sure Catholic Answers has some good stuff on him.

 

[TOmNossor]

AugustineH354:

Number 3:
To be continued...

AugustineH354,

Thank you for the Bahai comments. I have been very impressed (before and now) with the words of the Bahai “universal manifestations of God.”

I also have some very Bahai leaning thoughts relative to the reasons we see such seemingly (and perhaps truly) God-breathed words coming from folks who most (and themselves perhaps) people would think are mutually exclusive. In that most people think that St. Thomas Aquinas, the Bab, and Joseph Smith could not all be called of God. To the Bahai this is really not too problematic.

I will try to respond to some other things now. Have you never prepared posts on the Bahai?

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Katholikos:

The reason for a new “church” (1830) having parallels with an old Church (Pentecost, c. A.D. 30) is elementary. It’s called “imitation.”
Or, to be blunt about it, “copycat.”

Any parallels – real or imaginary – are purely intentional.

And perhaps you can explain why the Catholic Church moved towards the practice of the CoJCoLDS at Vatican II?

Also, if you had read enough to see the hint I made blatant above you might have noted that there was little evidence that the Catholic Church affected Joseph Smith as he grew up. The professors of Christendom who seem to have spoken with Joseph were predominately protestant.

I do not need to call you out of the world you live in, but I do not think you dialogue as if you pay much attention to what I say. It is like I am three and you are thirty.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Katholikos:

Define inerrant, from your POV, please.

Free from error. And generally preserved as such by the hand of God when we speak of the Bible.

This would mean that when the Dead Sea Scrolls witness that the Bible we commonly use is different from the original manuscripts; the Bible has not been protected in this aspect.

There is plenty of room to believe that the message is still clear, but we were speaking of manuscripts and such.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Katholikos:

Sacrament: (succinct definition) A sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace.

Your seven examples fall short – none of them were instituted by Christ and none of them give grace. They are therefore mere signs.

I’m sure you do not agree, but that’s the objective reality.

Here you say that your church is right and my church is not. I already knew that was your opinion. Why did you feel you needed to say this?

Katholikos:
And you’re the first Mornon I ever encountered who “saw” these seven parallels.

Have you looked into Masonry? There are your parallels for the Mormon ceremonies.

I am at least the second LDS to see them though. A Catholic upon reading that the parallels existed asked about it. I researched it a little and the result was that post. Perhaps if you engaged LDS as if we were more than just babbling infants, you might find that few LDS are just babbling infants.

And yes, I am well aware of Masonic parallels. Are you aware for the pagan parallels that CAN be drawn to Catholicism? What say you about pagan parallels expressed in Catholicism? What say you?

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

" . . . but some of the comments or rather the “tone” of some of these posts to Tom are just not nice! -Mfaustina1"

I’m sure I’m one of those you describe, Mfaustina. But what I know of Mormonism tends to make me edgy. It deliberately targets not the unchurched, not non-Christians, but Catholics. You won’t find any Mormon missionaries in the jungles of Papua, New Guinea, but you’ll find them by the thousands in Spain, Mexico, and South America. They even send missionaries to my door in Arizona.

They disallow any translation of the Bible but the KJV. Joseph Smith “corrected” the text of the KJV to make it agree with his new religion. His version is on sale at LDS bookstores. And Mormons consider three other books to be Scripture.

1 Nephi 13: V.4 "And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the foundation of a great church. And the angel said unto me: Behold the foundation of a church which is the most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth (sic) them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

V. 6 "And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the foundation of it.

V. 26 And . . . thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches, for behold they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

V28. Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

Now, which “book of the Lamb of God” do you suppose the Book of Mormon is referring to, and which church is the “great and abominable church” that caused the removal of these “plain and precious things” that they “might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men?” (see V. 27) Oh, here’s a clue. Did I mention harlots?

Pax et bonum, Jay

Katholikos,

In response to this post, I will provide a link to an article that I particularly like concerning the Great and Abominable Church.

If you read it, please remember that to be a protestant during the Council of Trent times and interact with the Catholic Church is radically different than to be a Protestant today and interact with the Catholic Church.

http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga1.html

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

AmandaPS:

Here’s another quote I found in the Doctrine & Covenants that make men who attain the celestial kingdom equal with God.

How can man, a created being, ever be equal in power with God?

LDS believe that we are to become perfect. We are to have the mind of God. We are to become as Jesus Christ is.

To have all power the Father has is to have His power.

Also, the creator/creature dichotomy developed within Christianity and Judaism likely in response to Gnosticism. Gerhard May (Protestant Scholar) and Blake Ostler (LDS Scholar) put forth a pretty convincing bit of history and reason to suggest that creation ex nihilo has its foundation in the 2nd century. May suggests that this was done to powerfully demonstrate the otherness of God (and respond to Gnosticism).

Charity, TOm

 

[dutch]

TOm,

Why in the world do you believe in testimony of Joseph Smith when it’s a fact that not one trace of reliable evidence has appeared that would support the LDS view of the Book of Abraham as an authentic scripture, while an enormous amount of evidence is available to show that it is a man-made production of the nineteenth century, created by Joseph Smith to support his claim among his people to be a “prophet, seer, and revelator.”

Mormonism is a joke.

 

[TOmNossor]

dutch:

I think you’re wasting your time trying to reason with TOm. There’s no logic involved in their conviction that Mormonism is the truth. It’s based on feelings and this is why TOm is trying to say we believe something that we don’t. If you criticize their religion, they feel that they are suffering unjustly and for them this is a reward.

Mormonism is full of so many lies and contradictions that they can’t use reason as a justification of their faith. It shows you how people will believe anything and reason and faith must work together to discern the truth.

I’m sorry if I offend anyone and I hope TOm realizes one day that Mormonism is a complete sham.

Dutch,

Did you mean to say that you were sorry if you offended anyone other than me?

You are quite mistaken when you suggest that reason cannot be used to defend the CoJCoLDS.

You are also quite mistaken in my opinion when you suggest that the character of Joseph Smith should be the deciding factor. I am of the opinion that Joseph Smith was an imperfect man with many wonderful qualities. But what Mormonism demands is that he was a man of faith. This will be hard for you to disprove.

Many protestant and at least one LDS point to the sins associated with about 75 years of the Papacy and say that this group of folks could not have a valid authority. After this wonderful folks like JPII may not walk in the same footsteps, but the authority is gone. I think this is a flawed apologetic.

Charity, TOm

 

[Calvin]

TOmNossor:

This would mean that when the Dead Sea Scrolls witness that the Bible we commonly use is different from the original manuscripts; the Bible has not been protected in this aspect.

What are you referring to?

My understanding is that the Dead Sea Scrolls and Qumran finds show how **accurate **the transmission of the Scriptures were. You seem to be using that evidence to say the Scriptures were **inaccurately **transmitted. There was a full Isaiah scroll found and my understanding was that it was 95% the same as the received text. The “errors” were minor and mostly involved mis-spellings and alternate spellings. There was no disagreement in substance.

So yes the Bible is, technically, “different” than what was found but not by much. It would be like saying British and American are “different” languages.

-C

 

[dutch]

TOm,

the pope has never taught in an offical manner any errors in faith and morals. Obvously, joe smith has. if he lied about the book of abraham, why in the world would you believe anything he said.

wives of joe smith of whom 11 were married.

Emma Hale
Fanny Alger
Lucinda Morgan Harris
Louisa Beaman
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Agnes Coolbrith
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Delcena Johnson
Eliza R. Snow
Sarah Ann Whitney
Martha McBride Knight
Ruth Vose Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth
Emily Dow Partridge
Eliza Maria Partridge
Almera Johnson
Lucy Walker
Sarah Lawrence
Maria Lawrence
Helen Mar Kimball
Hanna Ells
Elvira Cowles Holmes
Rhoda Richards
Desdemona Fullmer
Olive Frost
Melissa Lott
Nancy Winchester
Fanny Young

 

[AugustineH354]

TOmNossor:

Thank you for the Bahai comments. I have been very impressed (before and now) with the words of the Bahai “universal manifestations of God.”…I will try to respond to some other things now. Have you never prepared posts on the Bahai?

My pleasure. As for previous posts on the Bahai Faith, I don’t believe that I have done anything in depth; but I have mentioned the Bahai Faith in general, and have provided links to Bahai websites to let others read Bahai literature first hand.

Will get back to the Bahai evidences soon (probably tomorrow); I think you will find the evidences concerning prophecy quite interesting.

Aug

 

[Andrew_Larkoski]

TOm,

“And yes, I am well aware of Masonic parallels. Are you aware for the pagan parallels that CAN be drawn to Catholicism? What say you about pagan parallels expressed in Catholicism? What say you?”

I would say you are exactly right. Christmas trees, Cardinal vestments, church architecture, heck, even the Cross had pagan origins. I can not say for LDS and Masonics, but Catholic parallels to paganism is NOT any matters of faith, morals, or beliefs. These are all firmly based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

About Catholics believing that we become gods: I (not 100% sure) think that that refers to being united with God after we pass from this world. By no means are we “deified” or become “rulers” of our own worlds, but we are infinitely closer to God than while on Earth. In this sense, we are holier, in that we are completely and eternally one with Our Lord, Jesus Christ.