Discussing Mary

[justasking4]

Sure. It seems you always know what the context is. It is not enough to say that. Give us your reason why not.

Take Hebrews 12:1. The context can be found in chapter 11 where he has just mentioned the heroes of the faith and how we are to emulate their faith.

Now i ask you to show me in these passages of any communication of them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, actually, Lazarus IS the beggar, Just. The rich man has no name but is often called “Dives” (which means ‘rich’). HE is the one in ‘a place of torment’.

As for Abraham and Lazarus, the beggar, one place they are NOT is heaven. Before Jesus’s death and resurrection, there was no ‘person’ in heaven; only angels and God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Just, can you tell me what the ‘communion of saints’ is that we believe in, in the Nicene Creed? “Communion” means that we ‘are in union’ with them. How?

 

[HailMary]

justasking4,
please don’t forget these:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2596469&postcount=200
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2596521&postcount=203

Thanks.

 

[justasking4]

zemi;2600296]Thank you. Now the discussion is moving forward.

Yes, we know of that passage very well. It may be thought without the context that Exodus 20:4 forbids the making of statues for religious purposes.

That’s not what the verse says— Here is what it says-- “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
There is nothing in this verse about “religious purposes”.

Were we to read a little further in that book, we would find that the Lord later commands the making of statues for religious purposes.

Who is commanding this and what exactly is He is saying that they are allowed to make?

In Exodus 25:18 he orders that the Ark of the Covenant be adorned with two statues of cherubim. Later still, Solomon, following the will of the Lord, installs giant statues of cherubim in the sanctuary of the Temple in Jerusalem (1 Kgs. 6:23-35). In Exodus 20:4

Would you agree that what they are making images of are the cherubim and nothing else?

Since these images are in the holy place of the temple, the people themselves were not allowed to enter there but only the high priest once a year.

God isn’t saying that we shouldn’t make statues. He’s saying that we shouldn’t worship them or the false gods they may represent. He is forbidding idolatry. He is not forbidding artwork that draws our hearts and minds closer to him.

Are the statutes of Mary in the context of a religious place of worship?

Do catholics kneel before statutes of Mary in a catholic church?

Are people saying prayers to her while kneeling at these statutes?

Are candles lit before these statutes?

Do we have anything in the NT about statutes being a good thing to have in a church?

A more thorough answer is HERE in the CA library.

 

[justasking4]

If it is claimed that Mary was not sinless what exactly is the sin accredited to her account?

Scripture doesn’t tell us. Keep in mind it doesn’t tell us the specific sins of others either. Should i assume they were sinless also?

 

[HailMary]

There is nothing in this verse about “religious purposes”.
CONTEXT MY FRIEND SOMETHING YOU DON’T USE

Since these images are in the holy place of the temple, the people themselves were not allowed to enter there but only the high priest once a year.

Hey justasking4…where does it say in the bible that the high priest only enters there once per year? Just curious.

 

[justasking4]

Just, can you tell me what the ‘communion of saints’ is that we believe in, in the Nicene Creed? “Communion” means that we ‘are in union’ with them. How?

I suppose it could be that all Christians that die have a common bond in Christ.

Do you take this to mean there is communication going on?

 

[LilyM]

I suppose it could be that all Christians that die have a common bond in Christ.

Do you take this to mean there is communication going on?

Remember - all believers are part of the Body of Christ. Do you think they cease to be so after death? Or that there are two Bodies, one comprised of the living and one comprised of the deceased? How can a deceased person be a member of the body yet cut off from the undeceased half of it?

And why did Jesus call the Father in the same breath the God of Abraham etc AND the God of the living not the dead? The clear meaning is that the righteous dead are not dead but in fact living, as much if not more so than you and I.

Surely all living creatures can communicate with each other given the means (in this instance through Christ, the one head of the one body) and the desire to do so.

 

[justasking4]

Hey justasking4…where does it say in the bible that the high priest only enters there once per year? Just curious.

Leviticus 16:34

 

[justasking4]

Remember - all believers are part of the Body of Christ. Do you think they cease to be so after death? Or that there are two Bodies, one comprised of the living and one of the deceased?

The issue is not are there 2 bodies but is there communcation between the members that have died and the living here. Catholics must assume there is but the scriptures never teach such a thing.

Just because there may be 2 living beings does not mean they can communicate. We know this is true on an earthly level. Take the miners who are trapped in Utah. There may be a great desire to communciate with the miners but so far that has not happened. The reason are that we don’t have the ability to do so and the miners themselves are incapable of doing so. In fact it looks like we will never be able.

 

[HailMary]

The issue is not are there 2 bodies but is there communcation between the members that have died and the living here. Catholics must assume there is but the scriptures never teach such a thing.

I think the verse in revelations is pretty clear, not to mention the other verses.

Thankfully Sola Scriptura is not taught in the bible so I think the Church is in pretty good shape.

and maybe you can reply to:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2596469&postcount=200
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2596521&postcount=203

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;2607969]Remember - all believers are part of the Body of Christ. Do you think they cease to be so after death? Or that there are two Bodies, one comprised of the living and one comprised of the deceased? How can a deceased person be a member of the body yet cut off from the undeceased half of it?

I answer this at #268

And why did Jesus call the Father in the same breath the God of Abraham etc AND the God of the living not the dead? The clear meaning is that the righteous dead are not dead but in fact living, as much if not more so than you and I.

Surely all living creatures can communicate with each other given the means (in this instance through Christ, the one head of the one body) and the desire to do so.
The scriptures never teach any communication with them. Just because we may want to doesn’t mean we can. The only One we know is God that can hear us is God.

 

[HailMary]

We know this is true on an earthly level. Take the miners who are trapped in Utah. There may be a great desire to communciate with the miners but so far that has not happened. The reason are that we don’t have the ability to do so and the miners themselves are incapable of doing so. In fact it looks like we will never be able.

This is a very horrible example of how you can twist a situation to say whatever you want.

The “norm” for communication is not being trapped under a mine. Therefore your example is nullified.

 

[justasking4]

HailMary;2608033]I think the verse in revelations is pretty clear, not to mention the other verses.

i’m pretty dense and i have read those passages in Revelations that you mention and i don’t see it.

Thankfully Sola Scriptura is not taught in the bible so I think the Church is in pretty good shape.

and maybe you can reply to:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2596469&postcount=200
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2596521&postcount=203

 

[justasking4]

This is a very horrible example of how you can twist a situation to say whatever you want.

The “norm” for communication is not being trapped under a mine. Therefore your example is nullified.

Huh? This example fits. If you don’t like this how about 2 people friends on opposite sides of the world. They may know they are alive but they are unable to communicate. Methods of communications cannot be established.

 

[HailMary]

Huh? This example fits.

.
I disagree. Anyone else?

 

[justasking4]

Rev 8:3-4

Angels don’t even have a “physical” presence, so I’m guessing in your theology they can’t pray for anyone either!

Do you have any scripture that shows an angel praying to God for someone?

 

[LilyM]

I answer this at #268

No you don’t - if one member of ONE SINGLE body can’t communicate with the other members (via the brain and the nervous and circulatory systems) it’s no longer a member of the body. It’s either a dead appendage or belongs to a different body. Remember we’re not separate entities in spiritual terms - we’re all members of the ONE SINGLE BODY. Surely then we can all communicate on a spiritual level.

And why did Jesus call the Father in the same breath the God of Abraham etc AND the God of the living not the dead? The clear meaning is that the righteous dead are not dead but in fact living, as much if not more so than you and I.

Surely all living creatures can communicate with each other given the means (in this instance through Christ, the one head of the one body) and the desire to do so.

The scriptures never teach any communication with them. Just because we may want to doesn’t mean we can. The only One we know is God that can hear us is God.

Yes it does - we’re part of one (single) body, very scriptural. Not a community, a BODY - Christ’s body.

Your hand, foot, eyes, heart and lungs all tell each other what to do - sometimes via the brain, but not necessarily ALWAYS having to go to it.

That’s the reason you have a spine - it’s a shortcut in the nervous system so that in certain situations body parts can DIRECTLY communicate with each other since it’s quicker.

So does Christ allow all earthly and heavenly members of his body to communicate on a spiritual level -with each other as well as Him.

And common sense certainly does tell us too. We’re not one body if we can’t communicate on a spiritual level with each other.

Remember as spiritual beings Christ and the saints don’t suffer the physical barriers to communication that occur in regard to physical bodies. Communication is absolutely possible betwen all members through Christ.

Hence Christ telling both Paul and Ananias what to do. Hence Phillip being relocated after baptising the Ethiopian. Hence the angel opening the jail doors for Peter. There are no barriers between the earthly and heavenly in Christ - his power bridges that gap.

 

[HailMary]

Do you have any scripture that shows an angel praying to God for someone?

Do you know how to read the that passage?
Who are the saints?

Ephesians 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Therefore the Angel is praying for the saints.

I think you need to read the text for what is it, not trying to fit it into a religion framework that you believe to be there.