Discussions with a Mormon

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What bothers me the most is Mormons saying they are Christian when in fact they are not at all. If they would just say they were Mormon with different beliefs that would be fine. There was a time when they did just that. But it is easier to convert others to their faith if they can make un suspecting souls believe they are Christian. The milk before the meat which is very, very deceiving. As Christians we know the difference between being created and God being creator. We know that through Jesus Lucifer was created as well by Him All very Scriptural. If you go to the heart of who Lucifer is in their faith you will find the lie that lies beneath. There faith is built on a jealousy of Jesus, of Christianity as a whole. They feel in their heart that they do a better job at worship than do Christian’s such as you and I in Christ. This comes from pride and this is the motivation at the heart of their very doctrine. They have taken what Satan has offered in the Garden. “You can become a god” They have made this a religion. It is because they do not accept the Trinity / Christianity that they are blinded to these important facts. The grace of God and its meaning is distorted. They would see love as being generated from within themselves and not solely from our creator through us. They would see Wisdom as coming from themselves and not solely from our Creator gifted to us. Trinity / God is where they fall short. We as Catholics need to love them and point them to God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit one in being together. The Alpha and the Omega. Saint Augustine and the Church speaks on these matters well:

When I was just twenty it gave me great satisfaction that I managed to read, and understand, the Ten Categories of Aristotle without a teacher. I would mention the book at every opportunity, slipping the title in with a touch of awe, smiling to myself when lecturers would comment how difficult it had been for them to answer it.
And much good it did me! Indeed, it was harmful, because it encouraged me to think of You, O Lord, as if you were part of what you had made, instead of being its essence and origin. Sadly, I had my back toward the light and my eyes fixed on the darkness. I could understand without difficulty logic, rhetoric, geometry, music, and arithmetic, but I did not see that my intelligence itself was a gift of God and that all the true things I learned came from him, their source. What advantage was it to me that I had a nimble wit when all the while I turned from good and clung to evil? Little did I realize then how much better off were all those (as I saw them) “simple” souls who lacked my native intelligence but put their trust in God….and sheltered safely within the nest of His Church…Saint Augustine

HUMILITY

Humility is a supernatural virtue whereby one is enabled to make a true and just estimate of himself and is inclined to hold himself and his accomplishments in contempt in recognition that all good arises from God alone. It is said “dependence on God gives wings to prayer” St. Ignatius terms it a relinquishment of “self-will, self-love, and self-interests.” It is positive in not seeking honors and esteem of others, and self-condemning because man knows evil is his own doing. Humility is exercised toward God and neighbors: toward God who as the Creator gives man whatever he possesses, and toward one’s neighbors by recognizing their worth in the eye’s of God. This virtue is the opposite of pride and self pursuit, which is the root of all evil; hence humility is basic to the practice of all the virtues. It is fundamental of prayer, notably the prayer of simplicity, for Christ rewarded the Syro-phoenician women for her humility

Peace in Christ
www.utahmission.com
 
Well I’ve been talking with a Mormon at school for a while, and this conversation continued today. The two main topics discussed today were “pre-life” & “Satan and Jesus being ‘spiritual brothers’”. Apparently from what I can gather Mormons don’t believe that Jesus is God. :rolleyes: And that he was created making him a “spiritual brother” to Satan (i.e. they’re both creations). I quoted Jn 1:1 but it didn’t have much effect.

Catholig
I don’t think the theological arguments about whether or not Mormons are Christians are all that important. What I think is important is that Mormons call the Book of Mormon scripture. The Book of Mormon definitely teaches that Jesus is God and seems to teach the Trinity. About 10 years after writing the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith decided the Trinity was a false doctrine even though the Book of Mormon seems to teach it.

The Book of Mormon is Mormonism’s major problem. They claim it to be a document written before 400 A.D. when it in fact is nothing more than a 19th century creation of Joseph Smith, possibly with the help of a few of his acquaintances like Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdrey. I wouldn’t even debate theology with a Mormon. Bring up the problems with the Book of Mormon which are overwhelming. Here is some more information:

irr.org/mit/bompage.html
 
Mormonism:A polytheist sect born out of the ferment of the American religious experience. Soon to die under the fire of divine wrath against an unrependent generation.
 
The mormon “Jesus” contended with Satan to be savior of the world, was born of a physical union between the Virgin Mary and Elohim, visited the North and south American continent and preached to the Indians. None of which is true and all of which is blasphemous. All of these propositions were the product of the fevered imagination of Joseph Smith and other mormon “prophets.”
Plus…Mormons dont even understand “Salvation” in the same way as in Christianity. So when they say they acknowledge Jesus as their saviour, they dont mean the same thing we do.
 
Plus…Mormons dont even understand “Salvation” in the same way as in Christianity. So when they say they acknowledge Jesus as their saviour, they dont mean the same thing we do.
Tell me how they differ in your opinion. My guess is the Mormon view is closer to Catholicism than the Catholic view is to Calvinist Protestantism. When I was a Mormon, the way I understood it was that God gives us grace to be able to do the works of righteousness and become holy. Mormons believe man has to cooperate with God to make that grace effective. That seems to me to be pretty close to the view of both Catholicism and Arminian Protestants (i.e. Methodist) Christianity. Mormons don’t believe in once saved always saved, but I don’t think Catholics and Arminian Protestants generally do either.
 
Then that would once again prove they are not really Christians.

The Christian idea is not “any old heretical and crackpot faith plus good intentions equal salvation”… You are saved by the Grace of God. Blaspheming God and his Church and believing in weird and hither to for unknown doctrines and actively trying to remove people from Christianity, even with love in your heart and even if you provide social services …misses the mark.
I don’t think you are in a position to tell anybody what is a Christian and what is not. You are not in a Christian yourself, because you believe in an apostate religion. You worship idols and images instead of the true God. You believe in a different God and different Jesus from the one taught in the Bible. And you are the last person on earth to tell anybody whether they are Christians or not.

zerinus
 
LDS Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley says that the Mormons do not worship the Christian Jesus:

It seems that the LDS argument is with their own prophet, and not with us.

God bless,
Paul
My guess is that Hinckley doesn’t even understand what traditional Christianity believes. I don’t think he is willing to admit what traditional Mormonism believes having denied it in the public press (Time Magazine, San Francisco Chronicle). He may not believe what Mormonism traditionally believes either as Joseph Smith revealed in the King Follet sermon. Mormons simply aren’t very good at doing theology except for the ones who have studied theology. The Mormons who have studied theology seem to want to muddy up the waters. They all seem rather embarrassed to discuss what Joseph Smith taught and wish to hide behind the idea of “sola Mormon scriptura” to run away from it since their own scriptures can be interpreted in a way that is nearly orthodox.

In the end it is not worth criticizing them on their doctrine because they haven’t ever fixed what their doctrine actually is. They eschew creeds because they don’t want to tie themselves down to a fixed belief – Mormon doctrine seems to constantly change. The only things they can’t run away from are the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham which have clearly been demonstrated to be of 19th century origin rather than translations of ancient scripture.

As to the question of whether or not they are Christians – if the Book of Mormon is true, they are the only true Christians. If the Book of Mormon is false, they are clearly liars and not Christians. Everything about Mormonism hinges on the Book of Mormon.
 
I don’t think you are in a position to tell anybody what is a Christian and what is not. You are not in a Christian yourself, because you believe in an apostate religion. You worship idols and images instead of the true God. You believe in a different God and different Jesus from the one taught in the Bible. And you are the last person on earth to tell anybody whether they are Christians or not.

zerinus
I would say if the Book of Mormon is true, you are the only true Christians. If the Book of Mormon is false you are liars and anything but Christian. Whether or not you believe in the Trinity has very little to do with it because if the Book of Mormon is true your view of the Godhead is no doubt true. But if the Book of Mormon is false, what you believe about the Godhead is irrelevant.
 
of course, mormons don’t believe in the Godhead of the BoM (one God only ever anywhere, father, son and holy ghost are one God). They have changed their doctrine on this (many times) and now believe that there are infinite Gods but we are to worship only Elohim (God the Father) through our literal brother, the creation of elohim known as Jehovah (called Jesus) and the identity and role of the Holy Ghost (and even category of being) is not clearly defined. SO…people who don’t pray to Christ would appear by definition to be something other than Christian. The fact that they recognize the existence of multiple Gods and believe their own God to be nothing more than another created being who “attained” Godhood, combined with a lack of worship for (and at times even acknowledgment of) the Trinity, combined with the belief that they too can “achieve” Godhood in an endless “eternal progression” marks them as non-Christian.

Here at Catholic Answers I think we can accept the church’s instruction that they are not Christians as a parameter of discussions here.

They claim all others claiming to be Christians are apostates and that those who profess the creeds are corrupt and are believing in an abomination. Both cannot be right. so you can put your trust in the Bible, those who wrote it and those who protected it and taught the same doctrine for 2 thousand years worldwide OR you can trust in a relatively new and localized group founded by a conman and his cronies (many of whom apostatized from mormonism even) with a foggy doctrine than changes constantly with their own scriptures (that also change periodically).

I’ll take catholicism for eternity. 👍
 
What bothers me the most is Mormons saying they are Christian when in fact they are not at all. If they would just say they were Mormon with different beliefs that would be fine. There was a time when they did just that. But it is easier to convert others to their faith if they can make un suspecting souls believe they are Christian.
This is very true. Take for example the Bible, they claim to hold the Bible in high regard, teaching it is the inspired Word, etc…yet when you read deeper it turns out they believe the Bible was corrupted and inferior to the Book of Mormon.
 
This is very true. Take for example the Bible, they claim to hold the Bible in high regard, teaching it is the inspired Word, etc…yet when you read deeper it turns out they believe the Bible was corrupted and inferior to the Book of Mormon.
It is impossible to reconcile mormon beliefs to the Bible alone.
 
I don’t think you are in a position to tell anybody what is a Christian and what is not. You are not in a Christian yourself, because you believe in an apostate religion. You worship idols and images instead of the true God. You believe in a different God and different Jesus from the one taught in the Bible. And you are the last person on earth to tell anybody whether they are Christians or not.

zerinus
zerinus,
You are repeating yourself again. Remember what I told you earlier? No matter how many times that you repeat your falsehoods, they are still not true. Wait! I know… click your heels together three times. Sometimes that works. But only if you are trying to get back to Kansas. Guess you are trapped in the Land of Oz. Remember, the Catholic Church can get you back home again. Auntie Em misses you.
 
of course, mormons don’t believe in the Godhead of the BoM (one God only ever anywhere, father, son and holy ghost are one God). They have changed their doctrine on this (many times)
Joseph Smith’s changing doctrine of Deity occurred from 1830 to 1842, across 4 stages:
  1. From 1830-1833 Smith believed in One God. The original Book of Mormon has a distinct monotheist POV of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. As does the Book of Moses, his translation of the Bible and his earlier versions of his vision of the Father and Jesus (c. 1831-1832). The first version of his account, written in his own hand, he describes seeing one person, Jesus Christ.
  2. From 1834-1835 Smith made a major departure from the original Book of Mormon and began to teach that there were two persons within a Godhead (binitarianism). His changed views can be found in “Lectures on Faith”. These 7 lectures were approved for inclusion in the mormon scripture Doctrine & Convenants (D&C) in 1838. In 1921 these lectures were removed without explanation from the D&C. In these lectures, Smith describes the Holy Spirit as not a part of the Godhead, but as the “shared mind” of the Father and Son.
In an 1835 account of his first vision he describes seeing first one person in a pillar a flame and a second person appeared next to the first, as well as “many angels”.

The version of Smith’s first vision, as is currently taught by the mormon church, dates from 1838. In this version, Smith claims he saw “two glorious personages” in a pillar of light, God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
  1. In 1839 Smith revealed (in D&C 121) that there was a possibility that there could be many Gods and predicts a future revelation that will clarify this.
  2. In 1842 the Book of Abraham was published. Here is where the mormon doctrine of the plurality of gods is spelled out. In 1844 he gave a sermon (King Follet Discourse) where he describes the plurality of gods, and that God the Father is an offspring of an earlier more ancient deity.
Detailed information on dates and actual changes to the Book of Mormon that reflects the changing view of the mormon deity can be found here:

Joseph Smith’s Changing Doctrine of Diety
 
Joseph Smith’s changing doctrine of Deity occurred from 1830 to 1842, across 4 stages:
  1. From 1830-1833 Smith believed in One God. The original Book of Mormon has a distinct monotheist POV of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. As does the Book of Moses, his translation of the Bible and his earlier versions of his vision of the Father and Jesus (c. 1831-1832). The first version of his account, written in his own hand, he describes seeing one person, Jesus Christ.
  2. From 1834-1835 Smith made a major departure from the original Book of Mormon and began to teach that there were two persons within a Godhead (binitarianism). His changed views can be found in “Lectures on Faith”. These 7 lectures were approved for inclusion in the mormon scripture Doctrine & Convenants (D&C) in 1838. In 1921 these lectures were removed without explanation from the D&C. In these lectures, Smith describes the Holy Spirit as not a part of the Godhead, but as the “shared mind” of the Father and Son.
In an 1835 account of his first vision he describes seeing first one person in a pillar a flame and a second person appeared next to the first, as well as “many angels”.

The version of Smith’s first vision, as is currently taught by the mormon church, dates from 1838. In this version, Smith claims he saw “two glorious personages” in a pillar of light, God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
  1. In 1839 Smith revealed (in D&C 121) that there was a possibility that there could be many Gods and predicts a future revelation that will clarify this.
  2. In 1842 the Book of Abraham was published. Here is where the mormon doctrine of the plurality of gods is spelled out. In 1844 he gave a sermon (King Follet Discourse) where he describes the plurality of gods, and that God the Father is an offspring of an earlier more ancient deity.
Detailed information on dates and actual changes to the Book of Mormon that reflects the changing view of the mormon deity can be found here:

Joseph Smith’s Changing Doctrine of Diety
Good post! Of course, you have to realize that zerinus and his ilk have no regard for facts or history. They have on a set of iron blinders. You are merely trying to confuse the issue with facts. This is one of the marks of cult-like thinking, anything that does not support the cult leader’s thinking is of Satan and is to be ignored.
 
I don’t think you are in a position to tell anybody what is a Christian and what is not. You are not in a Christian yourself, because you believe in an apostate religion. You worship idols and images instead of the true God. You believe in a different God and different Jesus from the one taught in the Bible. And you are the last person on earth to tell anybody whether they are Christians or not.

zerinus
Zerinus, are you really going to accuse us (catholics) of worshiping “idols and images” when Mormonism has stautes of its own? And as for following an apostate religion - I have yet to be given any sources that show any of the apostles or bishops noticing an “apostasy” or their priesthood being removed - which would be expected, because there were such signs when Christ founded his Church, and took away the power from the chair of Moses (e.g. Pentecost, the renting of the temple, and Jesus’ resurrection). Unless of course you are saying that those who had the priesthood were all killed before being able to ordain anyone else, in which case that is simply an outright lie, because episcopal lineages can be traced all the way back to the apostles.

Another question is - why was the biblical canon assembled by a Church without a priesthood? Or if you reject that it was how the same Church that assembled the Canon in A.D. 350 at the Synod of Hippo, and could not have a priesthood 25 years earlier at the Council of Nicea.

Catholig
 
Good post! Of course, you have to realize that zerinus and his ilk have no regard for facts or history. They have on a set of iron blinders. You are merely trying to confuse the issue with facts. This is one of the marks of cult-like thinking, anything that does not support the cult leader’s thinking is of Satan and is to be ignored.
Actually, the mormon apologetics I have read on this is that the changes were because God was slowly revealing. Which, logically makes no sense. First, the changing version of the Smith’s first vision…changes that match to his changing doctrines. I’m thinking that if God appeared to me, I’d remember how many separate beings I had actually seen AND talked to me! Not a changing, “adjusted”, story over time.

Second, changes made to mormon “scriptures” to match the changing doctrine. Why would God reveal Himself as monotheistic in the Book of Mormon, and over the course of 12 years reveal Himself as something different entirely?

Third, if you look at the “revelations” chronologically, when they supposedly took place in real time, God reveals first the plurality doctrine, then monotheism and then altering between monotheism, modalistic monotheism, bitheism and finally ending up with plurality again, 4000 years from the first revelation. God is perfect and does not seek to confuse!

Fourth, the Book of Abraham has been thoroughly debunked. The final doctrine of plurality is contained in this book, a book that is completely and totally a fabrication of Smith’s imagination.
 
Actually, the mormon apologetics I have read on this is that the changes were because God was slowly revealing. Which, logically makes no sense. First, the changing version of the Smith’s first vision…changes that match to his changing doctrines. I’m thinking that if God appeared to me, I’d remember how many separate beings I had actually seen AND talked to me! Not a changing, “adjusted”, story over time.

Second, changes made to mormon “scriptures” to match the changing doctrine. Why would God reveal Himself as monotheistic in the Book of Mormon, and over the course of 12 years reveal Himself as something different entirely?

Third, if you look at the “revelations” chronologically, when they supposedly took place in real time, God reveals first the plurality doctrine, then monotheism and then altering between monotheism, modalistic monotheism, bitheism and finally ending up with plurality again, 4000 years from the first revelation. God is perfect and does not seek to confuse!

Fourth, the Book of Abraham has been thoroughly debunked. The final doctrine of plurality is contained in this book, a book that is completely and totally a fabrication of Smith’s imagination.
The bottom line is:
Mormonism is the product of Joseph Smith’s imagination, aided and abetted by other dupes, propagated by Brigham Young in order to cement his dominion over the dupes of “Zion” and modified to meet the changing needs of expediency (statehood etc.) As another poster pointed out; theology is not really important to mormons, because they need to be able to change doctrine at will. Their belief system is based on the BOM, the BOM is a fabrication ergo: mormonism is false. Full stop.
 
LDS have a handy dandy way of dealing with adversity. When Utah clearly was not going to be admitted to the union, primarilly because of polygamy, their “prophet” changed the rules and made it against their religion’s tenents to marry more than one woman. When BYU needed some black athletes, their “prophet” took blacks off the “blacklist” (pun clearly intended) and now they are unenthusiastically recruited.
The Mormons long ago relagated the Catholic Church to the “apostate” pile. Why…? because their “prophet” says so, thats why.
Compared to at least one other religion, they are relatively harmless but Christian they are not.
 
Compared to at least one other religion, they are relatively harmless but Christian they are not.
:ehh: Radical Mormons only differ from radical Muslims in number. See “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer. Both sets of “scriptures” can be easily read to justify violence to protect the religion.
 
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