Discussions with a Mormon

[Paul_G]

There is no “otherness”, and this “club” you speak of is one which Christ began and the Catholic Church has brought people to for 2000 years. Never out of a sense of leaving out, but of bringing in. It is heretical sects like mormonism that prevent people, and even misguide them, away from the Truth, as Christ taught it and is found in scripture.

mormonism defines itself as not Christian. In the statements made by its leaders, and the fact that the mormon church does not recognize Christian baptisms. If mormons truly believed that all were accepting the same Christ, then there would be no need for a Christian to be rebaptized when joining mormonism.

Your entire statement here is a sham.

No one has the right to decide who is and is not a Christian based on adherence to a man created creed. This is not the Biblical criterion for being a Christian. Even though I believe you are misguided by historical beliefs I would not say that you do not follow our Lord.

In addition, I think you will have a difficult time explaining your position on the nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus from scripture, but I would interested in you’re interpretation of “scripture” to support you view.

So stop trash talking, and support your view of deity as based on your creeds, from “scripture”. Show me from “scripture” where I am wrong.

Paul

 

[dosdog]

No one has the right to decide who is and is not a Christian based on adherence to a man created creed. This is not the Biblical criterion for being a Christian. Even though I believe you are misguided by historical beliefs I would not say that you do not follow our Lord.

In addition, I think you will have a difficult time explaining your position on the nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus from scripture, but I would interested in you’re interpretation of “scripture” to support you view.

So stop trash talking, and support your view of deity as based on your creeds, from “scripture”. Show me from “scripture” where I am wrong.

Paul

WE OWN IT !!
Acts 11:26And they conversed there in the church a whole year; and they taught a great multitude, so that at Antioch the disciples were first named Christians.

THE EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES
The Eastern Catholic Maronite Church
maryourmother.net/Eastern.html

You are a Koboloid

 

[Paul_G]

WE OWN IT !!
Acts 11:26And they conversed there in the church a whole year; and they taught a great multitude, so that at Antioch the disciples were first named Christians.

THE EASTERN CATHOLIC CHURCHES
The Eastern Catholic Maronite Church
maryourmother.net/Eastern.html

You are a Koboloid

The disciples were as scripture says first called Christians first in Antiock by those from without the church, as a derogatory term, much like you calling me a Kaboloid. I find myself in good company.

Paul

 

[dosdog]

The disciples were as scripture says first called Christians first in Antiock by those from without the church, as a derogatory term, much like you calling me a Kaboloid. I find myself in good company.

Paul

Good take a trip to Zion and wait for the next space ship to arrive

Zion refers to the New Jerusalem, a physical, Millennial city expected to be located in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri

 

[Paul_G]

Good take a trip to Zion and wait for the next space ship to arrive

Zion refers to the New Jerusalem, a physical, Millennial city expected to be located in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri

Ok, show me from “scripture” why this could not happen.

Your response is not out of the ordinary, when one can not support their criticism of LDS thoughts about deity by scripture. Many resort to this type of comment, mocking just like the good folk of Antiock.

Paul

 

[dosdog]

Ok, show me from “scripture” why this could not happen.

Your response is not out of the ordinary, when one can not support their criticism of LDS thoughts about deity by scripture. Many resort to this type of comment, mocking just like the good folk of Antiock.

Paul

When Were Messianic Prophecies Written?
Micah were written in the 8th century B.C.
allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecies-faq.htm

Prophecy Of Micheas Chapter 4
The glory of the church of Christ, by the conversion of the Gentiles. The Jews shall be carried captives to Babylon, and be delivered again.

PS Lexicon / Concordance for Mic 4:1
in the top -ro’sh ראש

1. head, top, summit, upper part, chief, total, sum, height, front, beginning

of the mountains, -har הר

1. hill, mountain, hill country, mount

Micah 4:1 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the hill of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of hills, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come in haste, and say: Come, let us go up to the hill of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem.

Original Word Transliterated Word
awyc Tsiyown
Phonetic Spelling Translated Words
tsee-yone’ Sion/Zion

Mt. Zion Also known as Mount Sion, the Upper City, the Southwestern Hill
bibleplaces.com/mtzion.htm

Crowning the summit of the modern Mt. Zion/Sion is Dormitian Abbey.
This Catholic Church preserves the memory of Mary
According to Catholic theology and the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, Mount Zion is the place where the Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ, is said to have fallen asleep for the last time, just before she was taken into Heaven along with her soul after her death, which is also called the Assumption of Mary The Dormition Abbey is a massive structure, just outside the Zion Gate, and resembles a mighty fortress; it is topped by a high, domed belltower, a conical dome and corner towers trekker.co.il/english/jerusalem-mount-zion.htm

Catholic Basilica of St. Stephen - The First Christian Martyr
famous Bible School in Jerusalem The Ecole Biblique.

• Ancient findings. Dead Sea Scrolls etc. -
  opened by French Dominicans in 1890

The present basilica of St. Stephen is located on the site of a great Byzantine church, which was built shortly after 431 by Juvenal, bishop of Jerusalem, with the aid of the empress Eudocia. Saint Cyril, patriarch of Alexandria, celebrated the ceremony of its dedication on May 15, 439
ebaf.edu/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en

The 2,000-year-old town of Sion is the capital of Valais, or Wallis, a canton that is roughly 3/4 French-speaking and lies along the Rhône River between Lake Geneva and the Furka Pass. Although Valais has been part of the Swiss Confederation only since 1815, Sion has had a Catholic bishop since the 4th Century and enjoyed near-sovereign status during the Middle Ages.

The Valère basilica (Basilique de Valère), also called Valère castle (Château de Valère), is a fortified church situated in Sion in the canton of Valais in Switzerland.
The church (Notre-Dame de Valère) was built during the 12th and 13th centuries and obtained the rank of minor basilica at the time of the visit of Pope John Paul II in 1984.
© Sion Tourisme
memo.fr/LieuAVisiter.asp?ID=VIS_SUI_VAL_009
home of the oldest playable organ in the world
fookes.com/gallery/switzerland04.htm

Mountains:
Switzerland hosts about 20% of the Alps. Approximately 100 peaks are close to or higher than 4000 meters (13125 feet) above sea level.

Webcam Sion
REGION
Valais CANTON
Wallis CITY
Sion
swisswebcams.ch/english/webcam_sion_(1950_sion)_1105963008.html

The Grande Dixence Dam is open to the public from June 15 through September 30. It’s less than an hour by road from historic Sion, the capital of Switzerland’s mountainous canton of Valais, The Barrage de la Grande Dixence is the world’s highest concrete dam, standing 285 meters (935 feet) high at the top of the dam is 2,365 meters or 7,759 feet above sea level.

europeforvisitors.com/switzaustria/articles/grande-dixence-dam.htm
europeforvisitors.com/switzaustria/articles/sion.htm
fookes.com/gallery/switzerland.php#4

 

[Paul_G]

When Were Messianic Prophecies Written?
Micah were written in the 8th century B.C.
allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecies-faq.htm

Prophecy Of Micheas Chapter 4
The glory of the church of Christ, by the conversion of the Gentiles. The Jews shall be carried captives to Babylon, and be delivered again.

PS Lexicon / Concordance for Mic 4:1
in the top -ro’sh ראש

1. head, top, summit, upper part, chief, total, sum, height, front, beginning

of the mountains, -har הר

1. hill, mountain, hill country, mount

Micah 4:1 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the hill of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of hills, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come in haste, and say: Come, let us go up to the hill of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem.

Original Word Transliterated Word
awyc Tsiyown
Phonetic Spelling Translated Words
tsee-yone’ Sion/Zion

Mt. Zion Also known as Mount Sion, the Upper City, the Southwestern Hill
bibleplaces.com/mtzion.htm

Crowning the summit of the modern Mt. Zion/Sion is Dormitian Abbey.
This Catholic Church preserves the memory of Mary
According to Catholic theology and the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, Mount Zion is the place where the Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ, is said to have fallen asleep for the last time, just before she was taken into Heaven along with her soul after her death, which is also called the Assumption of Mary The Dormition Abbey is a massive structure, just outside the Zion Gate, and resembles a mighty fortress; it is topped by a high, domed belltower, a conical dome and corner towers trekker.co.il/english/jerusalem-mount-zion.htm

Catholic Basilica of St. Stephen - The First Christian Martyr
famous Bible School in Jerusalem The Ecole Biblique.

• Ancient findings. Dead Sea Scrolls etc. -
  opened by French Dominicans in 1890

The present basilica of St. Stephen is located on the site of a great Byzantine church, which was built shortly after 431 by Juvenal, bishop of Jerusalem, with the aid of the empress Eudocia. Saint Cyril, patriarch of Alexandria, celebrated the ceremony of its dedication on May 15, 439
ebaf.edu/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en

The 2,000-year-old town of Sion is the capital of Valais, or Wallis, a canton that is roughly 3/4 French-speaking and lies along the Rhône River between Lake Geneva and the Furka Pass. Although Valais has been part of the Swiss Confederation only since 1815, Sion has had a Catholic bishop since the 4th Century and enjoyed near-sovereign status during the Middle Ages.

The Valère basilica (Basilique de Valère), also called Valère castle (Château de Valère), is a fortified church situated in Sion in the canton of Valais in Switzerland.
The church (Notre-Dame de Valère) was built during the 12th and 13th centuries and obtained the rank of minor basilica at the time of the visit of Pope John Paul II in 1984.

Mountains:
Switzerland hosts about 20% of the Alps. Approximately 100 peaks are close to or higher than 4000 meters (13125 feet) above sea level.

Webcam Sion
REGION
Valais CANTON
Wallis CITY
Sion
swisswebcams.ch/english/webcam_sion_(1950_sion)_1105963008.html

The Grande Dixence Dam is open to the public from June 15 through September 30. It’s less than an hour by road from historic Sion, the capital of Switzerland’s mountainous canton of Valais, The Barrage de la Grande Dixence is the world’s highest concrete dam, standing 285 meters (935 feet) high at the top of the dam is 2,365 meters or 7,759 feet above sea level.

europeforvisitors.com/switzaustria/articles/grande-dixence-dam.htm
europeforvisitors.com/switzaustria/articles/sion.htm
fookes.com/gallery/switzerland.php#4

So what are you trying to say or show with all this?

Paul

 

[dosdog]

So what are you trying to say or show with all this?

Paul

MT Sion Missouri?

 

[Paul_G]

MT Sion Missouri?

You show with you rolly eyes that you think you have got it right, so why can’t you show me why I have it wrong? You know, by the scriptures.

Paul

 

[dosdog]

You show with you rolly eyes that you think you have got it right, so why can’t you show me why I have it wrong? You know, by the scriptures.

Paul

Micah 4:1 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the hill of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of hills, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come in haste, and say: Come, let us go up to the hill of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem.

Mt. Zion Also known as Mount Sion, the Upper City, the Southwestern Hill
bibleplaces.com/mtzion.htm

Crowning the summit of the modern Mt. Zion/Sion is Dormitian Abbey.
This Catholic Church preserves the memory of Mary
According to Catholic theology and the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, Mount Zion is the place where the Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ, is said to have fallen asleep for the last time, just before she was taken into Heaven along with her soul after her death, which is also called the Assumption of Mary The Dormition Abbey is a massive structure, just outside the Zion Gate, and resembles a mighty fortress; it is topped by a high, domed belltower, a conical dome and corner towers trekker.co.il/english/jer…mount-zion.htm

Catholic Basilica of St. Stephen - The First Christian Martyr
famous Bible School in Jerusalem The Ecole Biblique.

• Ancient findings. Dead Sea Scrolls etc. -
  opened by French Dominicans in 1890

The present basilica of St. Stephen is located on the site of a great Byzantine church, which was built shortly after 431 by Juvenal, bishop of Jerusalem, with the aid of the empress Eudocia. Saint Cyril, patriarch of Alexandria, celebrated the ceremony of its dedication on May 15, 439
ebaf.edu/index.php?option=com…emid=1&lang=en

 

[Paul_G]

Micah 4:1 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the hill of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of hills, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come in haste, and say: Come, let us go up to the hill of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem.

Mt. Zion Also known as Mount Sion, the Upper City, the Southwestern Hill
bibleplaces.com/mtzion.htm

Crowning the summit of the modern Mt. Zion/Sion is Dormitian Abbey.
This Catholic Church preserves the memory of Mary
According to Catholic theology and the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, Mount Zion is the place where the Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ, is said to have fallen asleep for the last time, just before she was taken into Heaven along with her soul after her death, which is also called the Assumption of Mary The Dormition Abbey is a massive structure, just outside the Zion Gate, and resembles a mighty fortress; it is topped by a high, domed belltower, a conical dome and corner towers trekker.co.il/english/jer…mount-zion.htm

Catholic Basilica of St. Stephen - The First Christian Martyr
famous Bible School in Jerusalem The Ecole Biblique.

• Ancient findings. Dead Sea Scrolls etc. -
  opened by French Dominicans in 1890

The present basilica of St. Stephen is located on the site of a great Byzantine church, which was built shortly after 431 by Juvenal, bishop of Jerusalem, with the aid of the empress Eudocia. Saint Cyril, patriarch of Alexandria, celebrated the ceremony of its dedication on May 15, 439
ebaf.edu/index.php?option=com…emid=1&lang=en

I was hoping that you would have something personally to offer that we could discuss. Well, you have a good night, maybe another time.

Paul

 

[dosdog]

I was hoping that you would have something personally to offer that we could discuss. Well, you have a good night, maybe another time.

Paul

Whip out those Gold Plates and We’ll Talk

 

[Paul_G]

Whip out those Gold Plates and We’ll Talk

You’re not addressing the topic you responded to. In your view, why is LDS thought on the nature of Deity wrong according to scripture?

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

No one has the right to decide who is and is not a Christian based on adherence to a man created creed. This is not the Biblical criterion for being a Christian. Even though I believe you are misguided by historical beliefs I would not say that you do not follow our Lord.

In addition, I think you will have a difficult time explaining your position on the nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus from scripture, but I would interested in you’re interpretation of “scripture” to support you view.

So stop trash talking, and support your view of deity as based on your creeds, from “scripture”. Show me from “scripture” where I am wrong.

Paul

When are you going prove this idea of the Catholic Church being a club that excludes people?

When are you going to prove that mormonism is not a heretical sect?

When are you going to prove that mormons do not reject Christianity?

 

[Paul_G]

When are you going prove this idea of the Catholic Church being a club that excludes people?

When it is decided that one must adhere to a man made prescription of belief outside of what scripture allows, a club has been created. I am not talking about a particular church, but the idea that anyone has the authority to call into question ones standing as a Christian because they do not believe the same way. I certainly would not assume to make those kinds of judgements.

When are you going to prove that mormonism is not a heretical sect?

Why should I? I am happy with how I view the religious landscape, you are happy with yours, which I would be happy to learn more about

When are you going to prove that mormons do not reject Christianity?

I do not reject you as a follower of our Lord Jesus Christ we disagree as to how the creeds define Him. However, this difference in my view does not does not mean I reject you being Christian.

Paul

 

[Pete_1]

2 Galatians 1

6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema**. **9 As we said before, so now I say again: **If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. **10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Maybe quote that, but not argumentativley.

 

[RebeccaJ]

When it is decided that one must adhere to a man made prescription of belief outside of what scripture allows, a club has been created. I am not talking about a particular church, but the idea that anyone has the authority to call into question ones standing as a Christian because they do not believe the same way. I certainly would not assume to make those kinds of judgements.

Mormons have a standard that must be adhered to. By your definition, momonism is a club (one with dues I might add).

Why should I? I am happy with how I view the religious landscape, you are happy with yours, which I would be happy to learn more about

Because that is the point. It was the point of the Nicaean Council. It is the point to having a need to define Christianity. Anything heretical is NOT Christianity.

I do not reject you as a follower of our Lord Jesus Christ we disagree as to how the creeds define Him. However, this difference in my view does not does not mean I reject you being Christian.

A Christian who joins mormonism is required to be baptized, even when they are already baptized as a Christian. Clearly mormonism rejects all of Christianity.

 

[dosdog]

You’re not addressing the topic you responded to. In your view, why is LDS thought on the nature of Deity wrong according to scripture?

Paul

Whip out those Gold plates and pick one first

Joseph Smith’s Changing Doctrine of Deity
VIEWED IN SCRIPTURAL ORDER
The Mormon scriptures are not progressive. Viewed chronologically, beginning from the most ancient period, they move from teaching the plurality of Gods, to monotheism, then back to the plurality of Gods.
2000 B.C. Book of Abraham 4:3-7 Plurality of Gods
600 B.C. to A.D. 400 Book of Mormon Modalistic Alma 11:26-29 Monotheism
A.D. 1830 Early (April 1830) Doctrine & Covenants 20:17, 19, 28 Monotheism
A.D. 1830 - Joseph Smith Translation Modalistic Monotheism
A.D. 1834-1835 Lectures on Faith, 5th Lecture Binatarian Monotheism, or Bitheism
A.D. 1839 Later (March 1839) Doctrine & Covenants 121:26, 28, 32 Possibility of Plurality of gods
A.D. 1839-1843 Doctrine & Covenants 131:17-18; 132:20, 37 Plurality of gods (but unlike in the Book of Abraham)
A.D. 1844 [King Follet Discourse*] Plurality of Gods

Original 1830 Text
1 Nephi 3, p. 32 These last records … shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world.

Current Text
1 Nephi 11:32 And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the Everlasting God, was judged of the world.

 

[hosemonkey]

You’re not addressing the topic you responded to. In your view, why is LDS thought on the nature of Deity wrong according to scripture?

Paul

Mormonism is a non-Christian organization. Rejecting the Holy Trinity, not subscribing to the Nicene or Apostles’s Creed, perverting the nature of Jesus ad infinitum. Mormonism is probably closer to Hinduism than anything else, because of it’s belief in a multiplicity of gods. definitely non-Christian, in spite of all protestations.

 

[Marc1152]

No one has the right to decide who is and is not a Christian based on adherence to a man created creed. This is not the Biblical criterion for being a Christian. Even though I believe you are misguided by historical beliefs I would not say that you do not follow our Lord.

snip

So stop trash talking, and support your view of deity as based on your creeds, from “scripture”. Show me from “scripture” where I am wrong.

Paul

Hmm… Let me get this straight. You demand scriptural proof texting as your criteria. Yes, you reject the creedal statement of the Church as agreed up in an ecumenical council of the entire Church, both East and West ( I am Eastern Orthodox).

The Church wrote both. You trust them when they complied the Bible but not when the same Church wrote a creedal statement of faith…How odd.

It seems when you like something, you accept the judgement of the Church and when you don’t it suddenly becomes “man made”… You are inconsistent . Perhaps it is because Mormons cant get past even the first few words of the Creed without falling off the Trolley…

“I believe in ONE GOD, the Father Almighty. maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible”

I am real sorry but you folks aren’t even Monotheistic. You cant get past even the most basic Christian theology. Line one of the Creed should not be such a hurdle and if it is, there is something deeply deeply wrong with what you believe in.