Disrespect of the Holy Mother

[Faustina]

This thread is very long, so I skipped ahead a little, so if this has been brought up before, then just consider it an agreement.

This is in response to the doctrine of Immaculate Conception. At first I had a hard time with this, but after much thinking, praying and reading, I began to accept it and then believe it. Then I came across Jeremiah 1:5. I saw this on a bumper sticker with the verse, “before you were formed in the womb, I knew you”. Here is the connection…if God can do this before birth, create a prophet for the purpose of sending his message, why is it so hard to believe that it can be done to a young Jewish woman, before her birth, to prepare her for carrying Christ?

As far as the website Former Catholics for Christ, I found it to be totally uncharitable. Anything you try to tell them about the doctrines, they answer back that you are believing in the lies generated by the Vatican. I finally gave up. Every now an again I will visit the site and I am surprised at how mean everyone is.

Now I will go back and finish reading the thread

 

[Faustina]

Ok. I have now read the entire thread. It took me an hour.

Originally Posted by jimmy
The bible specifically calls the church the pillar and ground of truth. Why do you reject this?

From Rod of Iron-

don’t reject this. What I do reject is that the Catholic church is the church referred to in that verse. That verse does not say that the Catholic church is the pillar and ground of truth. You cannot point to every mention of the word “church” and claim it is referring to the Catholic church. In geometry, I learned that you had to prove a hypothesis before you could use it to prove other hypotheses. The same thing goes for this matter. Before you can use the verses with the word “church” in them to prove the Catholic church, you must first prove that those verses are actually speaking of the Catholic church. Don’t assume. Prove it.

Something that we seem to be forgetting is the social context of scriptures.

When the bible calls the church the pillar of truth- this is referring to the only church at the time that was following Jesus, which was the Catholic Church.

From Rod of Iron-
What are idols? Normally, they are statues. The Catholic church have various statues of Mary and the other Saints. I know that Catholics claim that the statues are just for reminding them of these people. But to the unbiased mind, they clearly look like idols

ROI- the problem is your mind is not unbiased. The Catholic mind is not either. The question is, are you willing to open your in spite of your bias.

From Rod of Iron-
God did not say that all generations would call her blessed. Neither did Gabriel in Luke 1:48. It was Mary that made the prediction of herself. God has not told us that we must call her blessed.

In one respect you are right. The words are uttered by the Blessed Mary. One of the reasons she is Blessed is because she followed the will of God, even though she had free will, just like the rest of us, and could refuse the job, and the honor, that was before her.

Rod Of Iron-

You also claim the Catholic church is Saint-makers.

Well, if the Church and it doctrines create the will and the desire for some people to live a holy life and the Church later recognizes that accomplishment, then again, you are right. The Church is saint-makers

 

[chimakuni]

rod of iron:

The Bible does not claim this about Mary. Where does such an idea come from? Further revelation through a prophet of God?

Oh rod of iron! You give me such joy! You, who believe the book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the other books that Joseph Smith wrote…and you believe every prophet that comes along in the Mormon Church…you are questioning “further revelation through a prophet of God?” I believe that if your latest prophet were to state that Mary, Mother of God, was to be honored, you would jump on that bad wagon. However, 2000 years of truth handed down without error, through the Holy Spirit, is not proof enough? Trust me, rod of iron, Jesus Christ Himself said that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church and that He would ensure that all of the teachings were without error.

So - I guess that your questioning Catholics honoring the mother of God through revelation of the Holy Spirit, tradition and the magesterium, is saying that Jesus does not do what He said he would do .

If that is true, if Jesus is not the head of the Church and if the Holy Spirit is not guiding the Church, then the Church need not exist. However, that is not the case, rod of iron.

I pray for you, rod of iron, that you would open your mind to the possiblity that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, and that Christ honored her as His Mother and that we are to do the same. Just open your mind and heart…feel that burning in your bosom. You will know the truth if you permit yourself to do so.

 

[Jennifer123]

rod of iron:

When I first found these forums, I started responding to the thread called, “Is the Book of Mormon a fraud?” After that thread fizzled out, I started responding to other threads. Some people have thought my approach to these other threads as hostile. But as I have reflected upon my posts over the last couple of weeks, I have discovered that I have been using similar approaches to the other threads as the Catholics were using in the Book of Mormon thread. Most of the Catholic who responded did not care if they offended me when they vehemently condemned the Book of Mormon. Yet, some take offense when I speak against the Catholic beliefs, such as their veneration of Mary. I find that I may soon say as Anglo-Catholic said, that I have posted “my last entry”. If I do, I guess I will leave you Catholics to your illusions.

For petes! I don’t know about the other threads and if you feel you were attacked I’m sorry for that and can only say again I think most of us are rational and charitable.
However, I really have a hard time believing that you think some of your posts here in THIS thread about Mary, accusing the Church of terrible things like murder, oppression, torture, etc. is part of a loving, charitable debate.
Please don’t mind what other Christians may or may not do, it is not part of our collective teachings to play tit for tat. If someone is nasty to you, we are told to continue speaking the truth in love. I just ask that you continue to post but ask in charity to please stop with the side comments that obviously can’t be refuted at that time. I hope you or anglo-catholic stay on the boards and I hope I’m not one of the ones you are referencing as being uncharitable, but I’m trying to help you stay on track so your posts will be taken more seriously.
God Bless

 

[Jennifer123]

rod of iron:

The Catholics are obviously the Saint-makers. When all is said and done, there probably isn’t too much difference between the Mormon gods and the Catholic saints. The Mormons believe that they can be exalted to godhood, and the Catholic church believes that certain people are exalted to sainthood. Both are examples of exaltation.

Absolutely - we are the saint-makers. The saints are people who have lived a Christian life that we can look to and emulate. We read stories about their lives or their writings, gaining information about how to live the Christian life ever more fully.
Interesting that my sister-in-law, an evangelical Protestant who thinks along the lines of yourself, has her kids read books, “missionary stories”, about the exact same thing, stories about missionaries who have led exemplary lives.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

The Catholic Church *recognizes *saints. A saint is a human being who has lived such an exemplary Christian life that he has attained heaven – which all humans aspire to.

The LDS church teaches that when they die, Mormon men will become*** gods*** and rule over their own planets – exactly like the earth God, who – so they teach – was once a man like us. (Men only get to be a god if they meet the requirements such as giving 10% of their income to the Mormon church.)

Let’s accept your definition for a saint for the sake of discussion. The LDS believes that humans can become gods. Gods to them are human beings that have lived such an exemplary life that they have attained the highest level of heaven – celestial glory. Of course, they have certain things they must do to become gods. But the similarity between the Catholic saints and Mormon gods is quite striking. I do not say that the two are exactly the same though.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Jennifer123:

Absolutely - we are the saint-makers. The saints are people who have lived a Christian life that we can look to and emulate. We read stories about their lives or their writings, gaining information about how to live the Christian life ever more fully.
Interesting that my sister-in-law, an evangelical Protestant who thinks along the lines of yourself, has her kids read books, “missionary stories”, about the exact same thing, stories about missionaries who have led exemplary lives.

It is quite interesting that whenever the New Testament speaks of saints, they are living Christ-believing people. They are not dead people that have been exalted. If you truly do belong to the true church, you are a saint. You do not have to live an exemplary life to become a saint. What makes a person a saint? Entering into a covenant relationship with Christ. If you have done so, you are a saint. I have entered into a covenant relationship with Christ and therefore, I am one of His saints. Praise the Lord!

 

[Hans_A]

rod of iron:

It is quite interesting that whenever the New Testament speaks of saints, they are living Christ-believing people. They are not dead people that have been exalted. If you truly do belong to the true church, you are a saint. You do not have to live an exemplary life to become a saint. What makes a person a saint? Entering into a covenant relationship with Christ. If you have done so, you are a saint. I have entered into a covenant relationship with Christ and therefore, I am one of His saints. Praise the Lord!

You may want to look at this verse rod of iron:

And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthew 27:51-53)

In Christ,
Hans

 

[rod_of_iron]

chimakuni:

Oh rod of iron! You give me such joy!

Your misconceptions of me and what I believe give you great joy??? I guess if that’s what floats your boat …

chimakuni:

You, who believe the book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the other books that Joseph Smith wrote…

Correction – I do not believe in the Pearl of Great Price.

Another correction – the Book of Mormon was not written by Joseph Smith. This was covered in an earlier thread on this forum.

chimakuni:

and you believe every prophet that comes along in the Mormon Church…

Another correction – I do not believe Brigham Young or any of his successors are prophets.

chimakuni:

you are questioning “further revelation through a prophet of God?”

I do indeed believe in further revelation from God, but I did not think that the Catholic church did. Are you claiming that there are prophets in the Catholic church? Is the pope a prophet?

chimakuni:

I believe that if your latest prophet were to state that Mary, Mother of God, was to be honored, you would jump on that bad wagon.

Which prophet would that be? Since I am not LDS, the current LDS prophet could not be my latest prophet.

chimakuni:

However, 2000 years of truth handed down without error, through the Holy Spirit, is not proof enough?

I question whether the Catholic church has handed down the truth without error for 2000 years. Should I believe this just because the Catholic church makes this claim?

chimakuni:

Trust me, rod of iron, Jesus Christ Himself said that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church and that He would ensure that all of the teachings were without error.

First, the “gates of hell” is another way of referring to death, or the grave. Jesus did not say that Satan could not prevail against the church. In fact, in Daniel 7:25, it says, “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”. Some king would wear out the saints of the most high. No matter who you think this king is, the verse clearly shows that the saints would be worn out, or prevailed over. Jesus said that the “gates of hell”, the grave, would not prevail over the church. If the grave did prevail over the church, it would mean that once we die, the church would be no more and we would no longer be part of it. But Jesus conquered death, so that the grave will not prevail over His church. In Revelation, it says that “death and hell will deliver up its dead”. If this was not so, the “gates of hell” would prevail over the church.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Hans A.:

You may want to look at this verse rod of iron:

And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthew 27:51-53)

In Christ,
Hans

But these were people who were saints while they were yet alive. When they died, they did not cease to be saints. If they had, the gates of hell would have prevailed over them.

I am just saying that people do not have to live an exemplary life to be a saint. Rather, they must enter into a covenant relationship with Christ to become a saint.

 

[Pax]

rod of iron and truthseeker1,

I hope the following will be helpful. This is taken from another thread concerning the Assumption of Mary, and talks about more things than just your current questions, but it may be of help.

The vision of the woman clothed with the sun in Rev 12 should not be dismissed so easily. The book of Revelation is filled with imagery and like many passages of scripture it has several levels of meaning. Catholics believe, and with good reason, that the woman clothed with the sun describes Israel, the church, and also Mary. I probably don’t need to articulate the first two meanings listed because you seem to be only concerned with the one that applies to Mary.

It’s important to point out that the church does not use Rev 12 as a proof text for the Assumption. Instead, the church uses it as highly indicative and meaningful. The church does not make a specific claim of proof from scripture that Mary was assumed into heaven, but the church has good reason to proclaim this truth, and does point to scripture to support the teaching. Hopefully, this will become clearer as this post develops.

In the spirit of charity and for our own edification, it’s important that we attempt to see the complete picture of a teaching and why it is proclaimed. Most Protestants, particularly if they are anti-catholic, have difficulty doing this especially where it concerns the Blessed Virgin Mary. Catholics will do the same thing with certain Protestant positions as well. Hopefully, neither will happen here.

Catholic teachings on Mary cannot be isolated from one another to be appreciated in scripture. This holds true of Christian teachings as they apply to Jesus and also to the Trinity. You really need the whole picture. I like to view scripture as God’s love letters to his people. I also like to use other analogies as well. The totality of scripture is in some ways similar to a beautiful tapestry. Every thread forms part of a grand and beautiful picture. It is also similar to a magnificent symphony in that each note, instrument, beat, and crescendo draws us into the grand musical design of the composer. Adopting such views of scripture gives us more ways to appreciate God’s word. It helps us to see that which we would otherwise overlook. Everything is related in its meaning, its beauty, and to the truth that is God as brought to us in Jesus.

I hope you’re patient and that I haven’t annoyed you with this back drop. I have only done this because it is important to think in these terms when we read the word of God.

A summary of the scriptural connections for the Assumption of Mary begins with Genesis 3:15 which reads, “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

In Rev 12 we see the dragon, “the ancient serpent” which is a clear reference to Genesis and the fall, pursuing the woman and making war on her off spring. The reference to “the woman” is very significant. It is used some eight or nine times in Genesis 3 subsequent to the fall, and is used some eight or nine times in Rev 12. The term “woman” is an identifier/title. This identifier/title is also used by Jesus when He addresses Mary at the marriage feast of Cana, and when He gives her to the disciple whom He loved at the foot of the cross.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from previous post

The “woman” described in Rev 12 is not merely a symbol of Israel or the Church. We know this for several reasons. The first clue is at the end of Rev 11 in verse 19 where it says, “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.” The Ark of the Covenant is a reference to Mary and it immediately precedes Rev 12:1 that says, “AND A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;”

The connection between these verses is unmistakeable and the woman is described as having clothing, having feet, and having a crown on her head. These “physical attributes” have meaning. In the scene of Rev 12 we see individuals. We see Jesus, who rules with a rod of iron. We see Satan the ancient serpent, and we see “the woman.” All three are individuals and all three are mentioned in the prophecy in Genesis 3. This is one of the reasons why we know that the reference to the woman clothed with the sun includes Mary. Your point about the pangs of child birth more aptly applies to the additional meanings that refer to the church or even Israel, but that’s an entirely different matter.

The reference to the Ark is also indicative of Mary because we see the foreshadowing of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant in bearing Jesus in her womb with the OT Ark of the Covenant. This connection is readily seen by analyzing 2nd Sam chapter six and Luke chapter 1 to see the incredible scriptural parallels. The following are fascinating typological threads in the beautiful fabric of scripture.

2 Sam 6:2
And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God

Luke 1: 39
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah

2 Sam 6:9
And David…. said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”

Luke 1: 43.
(and Elizabeth said to Mary) “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

2 Sam 6:10
David took it [the Ark] aside to the house of Obededom the Gittite.

Luke 1: 40. and she[Mary]entered the house of Zechariah

2 Sam 6:15
So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting

cont. on next post.

 

[Pax]

cont. from previous post.

Luke 1:42
and she [Elizabeth] exclaimed with a loud cry,

2 Sam 6: 16
As the ark of the Lord came into the city…Michal saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord;

Luke 1: 41
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb;

2 Sam 6:11.
And the ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obebedom the Gittite three months;

Luke 1:56
And Mary remained with her [Elizabeth] about three months

In the book of Exodus we have a description of the Ark and how carefully it was designed and constructed per God’s instructions to Moses. The Ark contained the Manna, the Ten Commandments, and Aaron’s rod (the symbol of the priesthood).
Mary carried the divine savior in her womb and she was also specially prepared.
Scripture tells us about God making us in our mother’s wombs. It says in Jer 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” And in Psalm 139:13-15 it says,
“For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.” Now if this applies to us and to the prophets, it applies to the mother of the Lord Jesus in even more profound ways. We know what was carried in the Ark, and we know that Jesus is the bread that came down from heaven, that he was the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets, and that he is the high priest of the new covenant. Jesus was carried in the womb of the Ark of the New Covenant. Mary and the Ark are clearly connected in scripture and there is the unmistakable connection in Rev 11 and 12.

There is something else that should be remembered. Jesus is the most perfect reflection of the Father’s love. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus obeyed the commandments with an unmatched perfection. To the Jews, honoring your father and mother meant not only to honor them but to glorify them. Jesus loved his mother like no son has ever loved their mother. He honored and glorified her in ways that only the Second Person of the Trinity could. Catholic teaching merely reflects what Jesus did for Mary. Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven….why not Mary?

You claim that the teaching of the Assumption is not contained in scripture and that it came late to scene in Christian understandings. There are serious problems with this contention. I hope the scriptural part has already been adequately addressed. If you know Christian history you will quickly realize how conservative the early church was and how if fiercely fought any and all heresies. The teaching of the Assumption was never contested. The reason for this is because it had already been accepted before it became common in Christian prayers where is seems to have appeared everywhere simultaneously. Moreover, the early Christians were quite fanatical about protecting and preserving the bones of saints and martyrs. The remains of the apostles, saints, and martyrs from the early church are still kept safe today. Mary’s remains are nowhere to be found and no Christian church community has ever claimed to possess them. This is significant in light of Christian practice.

Look at the entire picture. Look at the threads of this beautiful and holy tapestry of God’s work as it has unfolded in scripture and tradition. It is fitting and wondrous. And never forget that it was in Luke chapter one where the angel Gabriel tells Mary, “For nothing is impossible with God.”

 

[Pax]

rod of iron,

I hope this clarifies a few things for you concerning the Church, Scripture, and the Blessed Virgin Mary. I am certain that you were unaware of the aforementioned scriptural connections which is understandable.

It’s important to note, however, that you are ridiculing the ancient teachings of the only Christian church which existed until after the Protestant reformation in the 16th century. Even Luther, Calvin, and Zwingly who led the Reformation understood and believed the Catholic teachings on Mary and never deviated from them. It is only later, when Protestantism continued to splinter, that beliefs such as yours began to emerge.

These are important things for you to consider. Do not accept what non-catholics have taught you about Catholic teaching. Read the early Church Fathers and orthodox Catholic documents to find out what the Church really teaches. If you still don’t accept them, at least you will know what it is you are disagreeing with.

 

[hawkeye]

rod of iron:

If Mary has not become somewhat equal to Jesus in the Catholic mind, why is she claimed to have appeared to humans as much if not more than Jesus does? Do other saints appear to humans on earth? If so, do they appear as frequently as Mary is claimed to? If not, I wonder why Mary is claimed to have appeared so many time, especially when she is yet in her spiritual body only.

Mary has never been canozied, why do you call Her a Saint ?

 

[hawkeye]

convertmjh:

I was searching the web and I came across a former Catholics for Christ discussion board. I am always curious to know why people leave Catholicism so I took a look around and I couldn’t believe the disrespect for the Holy Mother. In one thread they were talking about a “false prophecy” of Mary and one man replied: "Which Mary?

Taco Mary

Tree Stump Mary

Mexican Mary in a Tilma

French Mary in a Grotto

Mary on Eqyptian Church Roof

Mary in a Fogged Window Florida

Mary here, Mary there…

WHICH Mary do we talk about?

Certainly NOT the biblical Mary, she is dead, but don’t tell them that."

How as Catholics can we show fellow protestants about their heavenly mother?

OK I challange you to have a look at Mary in the Tilma ??? tell me what you see.

 

[Jennifer123]

rod of iron:

Entering into a covenant relationship with Christ. If you have done so, you are a saint. I have entered into a covenant relationship with Christ and therefore, I am one of His saints. Praise the Lord!

Yes, the Church believes that we are indeed saints as well. But certainly there are saints whose lives are models for Christian living, and we try to emulate them in their ways.

 

[hawkeye]

rod of iron:

If Mary has not become somewhat equal to Jesus in the Catholic mind, why is she claimed to have appeared to humans as much if not more than Jesus does? Do other saints appear to humans on earth? If so, do they appear as frequently as Mary is claimed to? If not, I wonder why Mary is claimed to have appeared so many time, especially when she is yet in her spiritual body only.

Mary has never been Canonized, therefore Mary is not a Saint.

 

[mark_a]

ShamHy89:

They claim they do revere the Mary as the mother of Christ from Scripture, but hate the “abominations” the Catholic Church has turned her into. It’s just a product of their contempt for the Church. To them, the apparitions were sent by Satan.

Shamus

Can we get some non/ex-Catholics to expand on this?

 

[Mothers_Boy]

I asked rod of iron some questions and he hasn’t answered them that I can see. If you have, roi, point it out to me. I f you haven’t are you ignoring me? The “church” in 1 Timothy 3:15 refers to the church Christ founded. There is only one church that claims an unbroken history to Christ. The others broke away from this Church. So I feel safe in thinking that every reference to the word church in the NT referers to the Catholic Church.