Disrespect of the Holy Mother

[Anglo-catholic]

Just to let my old Roman Catholic training show : The phrase “full of grace” with regard to Stephen is not the same as the phrase used for Mary in Luke (based on what I’ ve been told about the Greek wording). No one should dispute that Mary was certainly graced above all women by giving birth to the Savior.

I’m going to do what I hate people doing - that is speaking about what God would and would not do. -I doubt God chose Mary based on any merit. He never seems to choose the people He uses that way - typically he chooses the most unworthy, weakest, lowly to show His Power.

Again these boards seem to show less regard for those Christians with whom we share many common beliefs. Using the phrase “our other brothers and sisters” should be taken literally. It does not give us license to treat each other worse than strangers. We are members of the the Body of Christ (I won’t say what member we often act like) but we are in the same family and family members can forgive each other even when they disagree and argue.

Paul says we see all things dimly now but later we will see all things clearly (I know this quote is not word for word). God Bless

 

[jimmy]

Many protestants seem to think that the Marian dogmas are new ideas. They are not new though. They have been around since the early chricstians. For instance the assumption has been a holy day since the sixth century.

By praying to Mary you honor Jesus. There are two aspects of prayer. There is the verbal part and the meditation of your prayer. While you are praying you are supposed to meditate on the mysteries of Christ or the Passion. When we pray the Hail Mary or the rosary we are not worshiping Mary, we are worshiping Jesus Christ.

 

[jimmy]

Anglo-Catholic

Here is an article that explains why it should read full of Grace.

catholicapologetics.net/grace.htm

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

rod of iron:

Where is it written in the Bible that the Apostles honored Mary?

I am quite certain I’ve answered this for you on a different thread. If you wish to obstinantly persist in ignoring or denying ~and even denouncing ~ what is written in Scripture and what has been recorded by the Early Church Fathers regarding the Most Blessed Mary, then you will simply answer to Jesus for it at the time of your final judgement. Something tells me there will be some major backpeddling then!

Pax Christi. <><

 

[rod_of_iron]

jimmy:

Many protestants seem to think that the Marian dogmas are new ideas. They are not new though. They have been around since the early chricstians. For instance the assumption has been a holy day since the sixth century.

The 6th century was not the very beginning of the church. If the assumption being a holy day only goes back to the 6th century, we can conclude that it was added to what Jesus established, since this practice does not precede the 6th century. This would mean that the Catholic church has changed.

jimmy:

By praying to Mary you honor Jesus. There are two aspects of prayer. There is the verbal part and the meditation of your prayer. While you are praying you are supposed to meditate on the mysteries of Christ or the Passion. When we pray the Hail Mary or the rosary we are not worshiping Mary, we are worshiping Jesus Christ.

And where is this found in the Bible?

 

[rod_of_iron]

Panis Angelicas:

I am quite certain I’ve answered this for you on a different thread. If you wish to obstinantly persist in ignoring or denying ~and even denouncing ~ what is written in Scripture and what has been recorded by the Early Church Fathers regarding the Most Blessed Mary, then you will simply answer to Jesus for it at the time of your final judgement. Something tells me there will be some major backpeddling then!

Pax Christi. <><

Since the veneration and honor of Mary is not found in the scriptures, and is not part of the plan of salvation, I do not have to worry about judgment day.

 

[rod_of_iron]

<<Further, how can I be living a life of torture? Has the Catholic church initiated another Inquistion?>>

Well, rod, I believe that this comment gives us your state of mind regarding the Catholic Church VERY clearly indeed.

Apparently, we not only are condemned for “venerating” people for 2000 years, we’re also to be condemned for actions taken hundreds of years ago, taken totally out of context and applied as though people living in that (or other previous) eras had actually the same culture, tradition, mores etc. as people today.

Hundreds of years ago? This was still going on to a certain extent in the 1800s. The Catholic church has shown that they are masters at persecuting those who do not believe the same as them.
Tantum ergo:

May I remind you that the only witch trials here on American soil took place in Salem, MA and were conducted by PROTESTANTS?

They learned rather well from the Catholic church in ages past.

 

[Jennifer123]

ROI -
My apologies to anglo-catholic who seems to think these boards are uncharitable, but I know most of us try very hard to present the information that is being asked of us in a fair and rtional manner.
However, it is hard when side comments are included in these threads that accuse the Catholic Church (these are boards offered to us by Catholic Answers, leading me to think there should be a lot of Catholics here) of heinous acts that really can’t be refuted in any detail as it would stray from what was supposed to be a discussion about something else.

ROI - please keep on target, the subject is Mary and her honor/dishonor. If you want/need information on the inquisition or any of the “atrocities” the Church has committed, please start a new thread. The tactic of essentially throwing stones and calling names when you find something you don’t want to hear can be interpreted as rather childish. I’m sorry if that’s strong, but it really is distracting when I know for me, I like to read these threads for my own learning benefit and these side comments are of no benefit.

Thank you

 

[Emmaus]

rod of iron:

Sure, she was honored. But that is just it. She was honored (past tense). Why is she still being honored over and over by the Catholic church until the end of time? Why does the Catholic church honor her anew every time they pray to her? By doing so, the church is idolizing her, even if the level of honor is not as high as the honor for God.

Do you think Jesus stopped honoring his mother when she left this world to go to heaven? Does not scripture tell us that “all genereations will call me (Mary) blessed” ? (Luke 1:48) Why don’t you do the scriptural thing and call her the Blessed mother?

It is you who use the term idolize, not Catholics. This is a pejorative accusation akin to the question,“When did you stop beating your wife?” Hardly a high level of conversation.

 

[chimakuni]

rod of iron:

Oh, I see. The Catholic church can have their own special version of the Bible. But yet other churches have their own Bibles, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and they are condemned for it. Since no other Bible says that Mary is “full of grace”, why should we rely on just one version published by the church that believes that very thing?

Oh Rod of Iron…The Protestants took the CATHOLIC Bible and took books out of it and rearranged words in it. You say that no other bible says “full of grace”…you are not correct. The bible that the Epsicopalians use use the same words, “full of grace.”

Don’t mess with the Mother of Christ!

 

[jimmy]

Rod of Iron

I never said that was when the belief originated. I said that was when the feast day originated.

Where does it say anything about the bible in the bible?
Where does it say anything about the laity reading about Jesus?
Why don’t you learn something about catholicism before you make these posts?

 

[Mothers_Boy]

Rod Of Iron
It is obvious you do not want to discuss, you want to demean and argue. That’s fine. You seem to only accept the Bible as your authority, you then need to show me in scripture where I am told my only authority is the bible.

2 Timothy 3: 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

This can’t be used because it doesn’t say “only” it say’s “all” scripture. You also need to mesh your explanation with 1 Timothy 3:15 which say’s the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Church. I’m sorry it offends you and I follow scripture and look to the Church and it’s Authority. You ask why we should venerate Mary when as you say

She was the vessel that God used to come to Earth in the flesh. That’s all. God had to choose someone, and He knew that Mary would be receptive to the task. But why vererate her now that she has been dead for nearly 2000 years?

You make it sound as if it wasn’t a big deal. How many vessels of God do you know? How many women do you know who conceive by the Holy Spirit? I think I’m safe in imitating Jesus in Honoring His Mother. I’m sorry your heart is so closed off to the graces available to you. I’ll pray for you.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Emmaus:

Do you think Jesus stopped honoring his mother when she left this world to go to heaven? Does not scripture tell us that “all genereations will call me (Mary) blessed” ? (Luke 1:48) Why don’t you do the scriptural thing and call her the Blessed mother?

God did not say that all generations would call her blessed. Neither did Gabriel in Luke 1:48. It was Mary that made the prediction of herself. God has not told us that we must call her blessed.

Emmaus:

It is you who use the term idolize, not Catholics. This is a pejorative accusation akin to the question,“When did you stop beating your wife?” Hardly a high level of conversation.

What are idols? Normally, they are statues. The Catholic church have various statues of Mary and the other Saints. I know that Catholics claim that the statues are just for reminding them of these people. But to the unbiased mind, they clearly look like idols. When you lift someone up above others, you idolize them. We see this happen with movie stars, musicians, and sports figures. By lifting up Mary and giving her special honor and veneration, it does not look like anything else except and act of idolizing her.

 

[rod_of_iron]

jimmy:

Rod of Iron

I never said that was when the belief originated. I said that was when the feast day originated.

Where does it say anything about the bible in the bible?
Where does it say anything about the laity reading about Jesus?
Why don’t you learn something about catholicism before you make these posts?

You didn’t answer your questions. The Bible does not contain the word “bible” in it. The Bible does not speak about laity at all. How do these questions help your argument?

 

[Anglo-catholic]

I’m afraid that any Protestant - or anyone else would learn from these discussions is - If you dare to enter a Catholic (Roman) church - you had better be carrying a white flag or else you will get your head bit off.

Sorry to say I have tried about four threads and all become an apologetics debating match - with less civility than the official Catholic - Protestant debates.

I am here because I am searching. That search led me to leave the R.C. church over Marian doctrines. I have read several books by Protestant converts to see how they “got over” these issues. In all cases they recognized the authority (primacy) of Peter - then they accepted papal infallibility - and accepted the Marian doctrines on that basis. Others relied on the highly faulty “wouldn’t you do this for your mother if you were God” logic.

When you read the papal proclamations - they do not respond to any heresy or supposed dispute but the pope says he wants to encourage devotion to Mary so he makes acceptance of the doctrines mandatory or else suffer the loss of salvation. I can’t see what merit such devotions can have.

The doctrines may be true - maybe not - I don’t oppose anyone who accepts them - but I in good faith cannot. Since I was a Catholic I cannot hide behind the defense of limited knowledge as lifelong Protestants can. So according to the church I am damned (along with Luther, Huss and anyone else who knowingly leaves). Don’t think that a 50 year cradle Catholic who taught CCD to the 10 grade for five years leaves easily. It was agony. From what I know, neither did Luther or Huss.

There are those on this board that do seek truth, enrichment, insight, etc. For those I pray God bless and help you. ( I do pray every day for myself and all others (regardless of denomination) that God give them the peace they seek.

For those that use the board to show how well they know the faith, how they can quote Latin (I took four years), want to do battle with infidels, heretics, etc. ask yourself if your objective is to bring someone to Christ or if you want to stand on a pile of crushed bodies to feel like you are closer to heaven. God Bless - This is my last entry.

 

[Emmaus]

rod of iron:

God did not say that all generations would call her blessed. Neither did Gabriel in Luke 1:48. It was Mary that made the prediction of herself. God has not told us that we must call her blessed.

What are idols? Normally, they are statues. The Catholic church have various statues of Mary and the other Saints. I know that Catholics claim that the statues are just for reminding them of these people. But to the unbiased mind, they clearly look like idols. When you lift someone up above others, you idolize them. We see this happen with movie stars, musicians, and sports figures. By lifting up Mary and giving her special honor and veneration, it does not look like anything else except and act of idolizing her.

So my friend you deny that Luke 1:48 is the word of God and prophecy through Mary. And thereby deny that ““All” scripture is inspired by God, and useful for correction, refustation and training in righteousness”, etc. 2 Tim 3:16

And I presume you will be leaving this forum to concentrate your efforts on a campaign to remove all statues from public places in you local community and especially in our nation’s Capital. Surely your campaign against all this secular pagan worship of our founding fathers and national heros will require all your spare time.

Oh, and please destroy all those idolatrous photos you have of your family. We can’t have that! And you would not want to set a bad example.

Adieu mon ami!

 

[Britta]

rod of iron:

What are idols? Normally, they are statues. The Catholic church have various statues of Mary and the other Saints. I know that Catholics claim that the statues are just for reminding them of these people. But to the unbiased mind, they clearly look like idols. When you lift someone up above others, you idolize them. We see this happen with movie stars, musicians, and sports figures. By lifting up Mary and giving her special honor and veneration, it does not look like anything else except and act of idolizing her.

Actually, idols are defined as “a material effigy that is worshipped as a god.” Much like the golden calf, the idea is that these material things are worshipped as a god. As you may know from previous posts, we only worship God…not Mary, not the Saints, not the angels…only God.

It is much like having pictures…not to worship but to honor. We do look up to her and honor her, afterall, she was the only person on earth worthy enough to not only bear Jesus, but to raise Him. If God Himself finds her worthy, so do I.

 

[rod_of_iron]

When I first found these forums, I started responding to the thread called, “Is the Book of Mormon a fraud?” After that thread fizzled out, I started responding to other threads. Some people have thought my approach to these other threads as hostile. But as I have reflected upon my posts over the last couple of weeks, I have discovered that I have been using similar approaches to the other threads as the Catholics were using in the Book of Mormon thread. Most of the Catholic who responded did not care if they offended me when they vehemently condemned the Book of Mormon. Yet, some take offense when I speak against the Catholic beliefs, such as their veneration of Mary. I find that I may soon say as Anglo-Catholic said, that I have posted “my last entry”. If I do, I guess I will leave you Catholics to your illusions.

 

[Britta]

rod of iron:

I find that I may soon say as Anglo-Catholic said, that I have posted “my last entry”. If I do, I guess I will leave you Catholics to your illusions.

If you do, sorry to see you go. Good luck and God Bless.

 

[Pax]

rod of iron:

But Mary did not die so I can be forgiven of my sins. I can’t receive my atonement from the shedding of her blood. Why then should I give her any more respect or vereration than I would to any other human that God has created?

Jesus saves me, not Mary.

This statement must by its construction and content mean that Catholics somehow believe that Mary died so that our sins can be forgiven, and that we receive atonement from the shedding of her blood. If it is not your intention to suggest this, then make the effort to avoid these kinds of slurs against catholic teaching.

Every catholic knows that only Jesus died for our sins, and that our salvation is through the merits of Jesus crucifixion and His resurrection. It is absurd to attempt to denigrate catholic teaching in the fashion that you have chosen.

You should give Mary more respect and veneration than any other human being because she is the mother of your savior Jesus Christ. We are commanded in scripture to honor our father and our mother. I suspect that you respect your parents more than you do other people. You might even respect Billy Graham more than Jimmy Swaggart. Surely, you respect Billy Graham more than Hugh Hefner.

Jesus loved his mother more perfectly than any other son that has ever lived. Scripture tells us that “every generation will call me [Mary] blessed.” Scripture makes it clear that Mary will be respected and venerated by every generation. We, as catholics, are simply following Jesus and the words of scripture. We may place Mary above all other saints, but this merely reflects the greater glory, praise, and total worship and submission that we have toward God.