Disrespect of the Holy Mother

[Panis_Angelicas]

reformedprotest:

How can Roman Catholics explain Luke 11:27-28?

Here Jesus specifically changes the topic from Mary to God. No polite ‘thanks’ or thumbs up; instead we are given a contrast between Mary’s election and God’s will. It would seem Mary’s position is completely subordinate. This does not reflect Catholic dogma.
Sola Scriptura,
Rob

You misinterpret that Scripture verse, not surprisingly.

Jesus doesn’t put down His Mother, but describes “why” she is blessed. It isn’t because she had the best womb or breasts for the job of being Mother of God, but because she was spiritually the best human being for the job. She heard the Word of God and believed in it, totally. She was completely resigned and humbly submissive to the Will of God. Her will was perfectly conformed to His. If your will is conformed to God’s Will, then you do not sin.

Also, the Church teaches that **God preserved **Mary from the stain of original sin, (precisely because of His plan of salvation for the world) not that it was something she accomplished of her own accord.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[reformedprotest]

You misinterpret that Scripture verse, not surprisingly.

No, I exegeted the verse specifically for the purpose of explaining the intent. Jesus didn’t put down Mary, but placed her past position in subordination to the present and future of the Father’s work. Directly changing the topic from blessing Mary through Jesus to blessing one’s self through serving God. Hence, he is differenciating between past election with the future of God’s will. This emphasises the fact that Mary’s position is past tense, not present or future as Catholic Dogma states.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

reformedprotest:

No, I exegeted the verse specifically for the purpose of explaining the intent. Jesus didn’t put down Mary, but placed her past position in subordination to the present and future of the Father’s work. Directly changing the topic from blessing Mary through Jesus to blessing one’s self through serving God. Hence, he is differenciating between past election with the future of God’s will. This emphasises the fact that Mary’s position is past tense, not present or future as Catholic Dogma states.

Mary’s position was always in subordination to the present and future of God’s work. Even during Her Son’s Passion and Death, she submitted perfectly to the Father’s Will. You may desire to explain the intent, but I think the Church Who wrote the New Testament knows Its own intent as well.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[rod_of_iron]

Jennifer123:

Straw man argument - Catholicism doesn’t teach that Mary dies for your sins.

Then why should I focus on Mary at all? If she cannot save me from my sins, then she is just like every other created human upon the face of this Earth.

Jennifer123:

For us, it’s not an “either/or” choice, it’s a “both/and”. Jesus died for our sins and we respect Mary for her special place in history. Not a “saving” part, but a special, honored place in the story of our savior.

Why should I respect or honor Mary? She was the vessel that God used to come to Earth in the flesh. That’s all. God had to choose someone, and He knew that Mary would be receptive to the task. But why vererate her now that she has been dead for nearly 2000 years?

Jennifer123:

“All generations shall call me blessed” - our Blessed Mother.

That was said by Mary about herself. Gabriel did not say it. God did not say it. Have all generations called her blessed? The Catholic church alone does not represent all generations. Perhaps, Mary uttered a false prophecy.

Jennifer123:

Do you get jealous if someone mentions your mother, say someone complemented you by saying what a great job your mother did in raising you - will you be offended? Is taking offense to that statement a Christian thing to do? God doesn’t hoard glory like some earthly king.

Even though I am not offended when others compliment my mother for doing such a good job in raising me, I do not expect all nations to call her blessed for doing that good job. I do not expect anyone to vererate her after she dies. Your comparison falls short.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Katholikos:

Her only power is prayer – and it’s her powerful prayer that causes the hyperbole.

Where in the Bible does it state that Mary has the power of prayer now that she is dead? Where is it written that any humans pray after they are dead?

 

[space_ghost]

you know… this one has always surprised me… if i was to take a chance of disrepecting either Jesus or his mother, it would probably be Jesus… being the forgiving God that he is, i feel sure he would just chalk it up to my stupitidy… but, disrespect his mother… uh uh… no way… that’s asking for it… legend has it there is a portrait in a church in Poland that depicts the Madonna and Child, and the protrait has two scratches on the cheek of the Madonna (Mary)… there would have been 3 marks but the barbarian that was trying to destroy the protrait was struck dead when he raised his sword to deliver the 3rd blow… fact or fiction?
You tell me… don’t mess with his mama…

 

[space_ghost]

rod of iron:

Where in the Bible does it state that Mary has the power of prayer now that she is dead? Where is it written that any humans pray after they are dead?

well ya ding dong where is it written that they don’t… open your eyes and your heart… i wish you peace with what must be a life of torture…

 

[rod_of_iron]

Mothers Boy:

The Ignatius Bible Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition has “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you”

Oh, I see. The Catholic church can have their own special version of the Bible. But yet other churches have their own Bibles, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and they are condemned for it. Since no other Bible says that Mary is “full of grace”, why should we rely on just one version published by the church that believes that very thing?

 

[rod_of_iron]

Emmaus:

Mary’s position in catholic Dogma is subordinate to God. But she was also honored more highly than any other creature by God in being chosen as the mother of the Son Incarnate. Who else has been honored by God to such an extent?

Sure, she was honored. But that is just it. She was honored (past tense). Why is she still being honored over and over by the Catholic church until the end of time? Why does the Catholic church honor her anew every time they pray to her? By doing so, the church is idolizing her, even if the level of honor is not as high as the honor for God.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Panis Angelicas:

Jesus doesn’t put down His Mother, but describes “why” she is blessed.

How does Jesus describe how she is blessed by turning the focus from Mary to “hearing the word of God and keeping it”? Jesus did not want the crowd to focus on Mary. This is why He said, “On the contrary” or “Yea rather” when answering the woman. You want Mary to be honored and vererated so much that you will interpret any scripture to say what you want it to say.
Panis Angelicas:

It isn’t because she had the best womb or breasts for the job of being Mother of God, but because she was spiritually the best human being for the job. She heard the Word of God and believed in it, totally. She was completely resigned and humbly submissive to the Will of God. Her will was perfectly conformed to His. If your will is conformed to God’s Will, then you do not sin.

Nice try, but Jesus says nothing about Mary. Instead, He puts the focus on God, not Mary.
Panis Angelicas:

Also, the Church teaches that **God preserved **Mary from the stain of original sin, (precisely because of His plan of salvation for the world) not that it was something she accomplished of her own accord.

And where is this taught in the Bible? If the Catholic church teaches something that is not supported by the Bible, the church is clearly wrong.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Panis Angelicas:

Mary’s position was always in subordination to the present and future of God’s work. Even during Her Son’s Passion and Death, she submitted perfectly to the Father’s Will. You may desire to explain the intent, but I think the Church Who wrote the New Testament knows Its own intent as well.

Pax Christi. <><

But the Catholic church did not write the New Testament. You keep claiming something that is not true. :tsktsk:

 

[Missa]

rod of iron:

In what version of the Bible does it say, “Hail full of grace, the Lord is with you”? I have not found it in any version I have looked in. I have found the following in the Luke 1:28 of the Catholic Version of the NRSV, “And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.’” But being favored does not make you without original sin.

I’m just going to jump in here…and I’m not Catholic, btw, but want to be with all my heart…I have never read any Bible that didn’t say Gabriel said “Hail Full of Grace” —
rod of iron:

Oh, I see. The Catholic church can have their own special version of the Bible. But yet other churches have their own Bibles, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and they are condemned for it. Since no other Bible says that Mary is “full of grace”, why should we rely on just one version published by the church that believes that very thing?

Nobody is condemning you (I don’t think) for using the NRSV or whatever…but I have to agree with everyone else who has said that there would be no New Testament without the Catholic Church…and anything that came along after Luther started fooling around and taking stuff out…that’s man’s interpretation, in my opinion. And remember in Revelation 22: 18-19 we’re told not to add or take away from the Book…isn’t that what Luther did?

Just my thoughts, that’s all.
bye for now
Melissa

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Well, Rod, we can’t make you like, love, or even respect the Mother of Jesus. All we can do is feel a bit sorry for you in that regard.
Our 4th Commandment says “Honor your Mother…” And from the Cross, Jesus left His Mother to John and to the Church.
The Apostles honored Mary, the Early Church Fathers honored Mary, and throughout the ages, all of Christendom has honored Mary.
Heck, even Martin Luther, the father of protestantism, honored Mary.
But since protestants have now splintered into so many denominations, all with their own interpretations of Scripture, and all with their own “take” on Truth, there are now many different sects who seem to literally despise Mary.
Yet, they claim to be “followers” and imitators of Jesus.
They mock the Blessed Virgin and think they’re being clever.
Sad.
Oh, and yes, the Scriptures do translate “Blessed are you among women,” and “Hail, full of grace.”
Jesus wasn’t speaking English when the Bible was written down. Sometimes important meanings are lost in the translations. Look to the ancient Church to know the meaning from the time of it’s translation.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[rod_of_iron]

space ghost:

well ya ding dong where is it written that they don’t… open your eyes and your heart… i wish you peace with what must be a life of torture…

Why would it be written that they don’t, ya ding dong? Do you believe that the Bible is filled with information about what doesn’t happen? If it were, then the Bible would be filled with falsehoods, rather than truths.

Further, how can I be living a life of torture? Has the Catholic church initiated another Inquistion?

 

[rod_of_iron]

Panis Angelicas:

Well, Rod, we can’t make you like, love, or even respect the Mother of Jesus. All we can do is feel a bit sorry for you in that regard.
Our 4th Commandment says “Honor your Mother…” And from the Cross, Jesus left His Mother to John and to the Church.

What makes Mary my mother? I have only one mother and Mary is not her. Mary did not conceive me or give birth to me. Mary has not adopted me. So, I ask again, how can she be my mother?
Panis Angelicas:

The Apostles honored Mary.

Where is it written in the Bible that the Apostles honored Mary?
Panis Angelicas:

Oh, and yes, the Scriptures do translate “Blessed are you among women,” and “Hail, full of grace.”
Jesus wasn’t speaking English when the Bible was written down. Sometimes important meanings are lost in the translations. Look to the ancient Church to know the meaning from the time of it’s translation.

It is quite interesting. When I did a search in my concordance for “full of grace”, I found that in Acts 6:8 of the NSRV: Catholic Edition, Stephen is described as being “full of grace”. Does this mean that we should believe that Stephen was born without the “stain of original sin” also? Should we lift him up as high as Mary?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

<<Further, how can I be living a life of torture? Has the Catholic church initiated another Inquistion?>>

Well, rod, I believe that this comment gives us your state of mind regarding the Catholic Church VERY clearly indeed.

Apparently, we not only are condemned for “venerating” people for 2000 years, we’re also to be condemned for actions taken hundreds of years ago, taken totally out of context and applied as though people living in that (or other previous) eras had actually the same culture, tradition, mores etc. as people today.

May I remind you that the only witch trials here on American soil took place in Salem, MA and were conducted by PROTESTANTS?

May I remind you that it was those delightful Protestant fellows in Massachusetts Bay who expelled fellow Protestant Roger Williams, instituted genocidal relations among the native Americans in the area, tortured and killed peaceful PROTESTANT Quakers (Society of Friends) as well as peaceful CATHOLICS? Who cheerfully owned black slaves and indentured white servants?

As an American, I would think it far more likely that any “torture” of a religious nature in our society would come from the spiritual descendants not of the Catholics, but of those humourless, dictatorial, “Bible-believing”, iconoclastic Puritans/ Protestants of early American history.

But of course that’s only my opinion.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Rod, is Jesus our brother and God our father?
Well, what does that make Mary, then?

If she is the mother of Jesus our brother, then she is our SPIRITUAL mother as well.

 

[Jennifer123]

rod of iron:

If it were, then the Bible would be filled with falsehoods, rather than truths.

*“Perhaps, Mary uttered a false prophecy.” * (Sorry I didn’t know how to include more than one quote) You said it - maybe Mary did indeed utter a false prophesy in claiming all generations shall call me blessed, but that doesn’t bode well for your sola scriptura, right?

“What makes Mary my mother? I have only one mother and Mary is not her. Mary did not conceive me or give birth to me. Mary has not adopted me. So, I ask again, how can she be my mother?”

When Jesus gave Mary to John, he gave her to all of us as an example of the greatest expression of piety, someone to hold up as an example for all of us, she’s our SPIRITUAL mother. You sound a bit like Nicodemus when he asked (rather petulantly) if to be born again he has to crawl up his mother’s womb all over again! As a faithful and observant Jew, Jesus would have given Mary to family if he had any present as that was the custom of the time, straying from that would have caused much scandal. But in giving Mary to John, even in the possible presence of family, he made a statement to all of us.

I could go on but it’s becoming a rather tiresome chore. It’s obvious you don’t want to hear any part of it. I hope you keep posting because you’re here for some reason, and I’m willing to be charitable even if it’s to try to “rescue” our “souls” from the “whore of babylon”, for which I say to you, Good Luck!!! That may work on other Catholics, but not the ones on these boards!!

 

[space_ghost]

rod of iron:

Why would it be written that they don’t, ya ding dong? Do you believe that the Bible is filled with information about what doesn’t happen? If it were, then the Bible would be filled with falsehoods, rather than truths.

Further, how can I be living a life of torture? Has the Catholic church initiated another Inquistion?

and do you believe that ALL revelation is in the 60 years that it took to write the new testament… who’s kidding who… why did Christ tell the apostles he would be with them till the end of time, why appoint anyone to guard the faith… just wait for this book to be dropped from the sky… what did they do for 350 years before the new testament was put together… who guided them then…
ya think Peter, the apostles, and their successors maybe? I think so…
your inquisition is self inflicted… but, i tell you what… save the scripture intrepreting to the people that wrote it… the catholic church… at least that is scriptural, that is logical, and that is traditional… I do wish you peace… although i doubt you will find much…

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

And remember in Revelation 22: 18-19 we’re told not to add or take away from the Book…isn’t that what Luther did?

Luther solved that by taking Revelation out of the canon altogether.