Disrespect of the Holy Mother

[jimmy]

rod of iron:

You didn’t answer your questions. The Bible does not contain the word “bible” in it. The Bible does not speak about laity at all. How do these questions help your argument?

The point is the bible is not the only source and if you think it is you are fooling yourself. The fact that it says nothing in the bible about a book that the people should re4ad in order to learn the truth is a very big issue. You reject this yet you still bring up the arguement that if it is not in the bible then it must be false. The bible specifically calls the church the **pillar **and **ground **of truth. Why do you reject this? It seems that you take what you want and reject what does not fit your idea of Christianity.
It also says in Matthew that the gates of Hell will **not **prevail against his church.

 

[truthseeker1]

rod of iron:

But Mary did not die so I can be forgiven of my sins. I can’t receive my atonement from the shedding of her blood. Why then should I give her any more respect or vereration than I would to any other human that God has created?

Jesus saves me, not Mary.

Amen brother!

 

[truthseeker1]

rod of iron:

But Mary did not die so I can be forgiven of my sins. I can’t receive my atonement from the shedding of her blood. Why then should I give her any more respect or vereration than I would to any other human that God has created?

Jesus saves me, not Mary.

Amen Brother!

 

[truthseeker1]

Pax:

We are commanded in scripture to honor our father and our mother. I suspect that you respect your parents more than you do other people. You might even respect Billy Graham more than Jimmy Swaggart. Surely, you respect Billy Graham more than Hugh Hefner…

Isn’t Billy Graham a high ranking freemason? I no longer respect him…I put him lower than Hugh Hefner…

Scripture makes it clear that Mary will be respected and venerated by every generation. We, as catholics, are simply following Jesus and the words of scripture…

Can you provide scriptures that back up what you say above? I have never seen any scriptures that refer to Mary as a “heavenly mother” or put her as a mediator between man and God.

 

[SpiritualSon]

I love and have respect Mary,because she was a good mother to Jesus as He grew up. I will not ask her to pray for me, I can do that myself. That’s why God us gave a mouth,to speak with Him,and not have others do it for us.

Harry

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

rod of iron:

God did not say that all generations would call her blessed. Neither did Gabriel in Luke 1:48. It was Mary that made the prediction of herself. God has not told us that we must call her blessed.

Mary had conceived of the Holy Spirit and was bearing the Christ Child in her womb when she spoke those words. Do ya think she was speaking in error? Or maybe, just mayyyyyyyyyyyyyybe, she was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesying! If she was speaking in error, why would that error survive 2,000 years and be recorded, without correction or admonishment, in Scripture?

What are idols? Normally, they are statues.

Funny, Jesus said it was money. No man can serve two masters; man cannot serve both God and mammon.

The Catholic church have various statues of Mary and the other Saints.

Not to mention paintings, frescos and icons. We have a treasury of art. Only the best for the glory of God!

I know that Catholics claim that the statues are just for reminding them of these people. But to the unbiased mind,

hell-o!

they clearly look like idols.

Oh yes, clear as mud. Just take a look at that Pieta by Michaelangelo. That should be destroyed! Clearly an idol!!!

When you lift someone up above others, you idolize them. We see this happen with movie stars, musicians, and sports figures.

So, how many people offer sacrifice to movie stars, musicians, and sports figures? You are totally stretching the concept of idolatry here.

By lifting up Mary and giving her special honor and veneration, it does not look like anything else except and act of idolizing her.

Maybe it looks that way to you, Rod of Iron, because you seem to despise Our Blessed Mother.
But we imitate Jesus, and we honor her.
Scripture says that all ages shall call her “blessed.” And Jesus entrusted His Blessed Mother to the care of His beloved Apostle with His last dying breaths.
It’s sad that although you insist upon being Scripturally based, you will ignore that which has been obvious to unbiased minds for centuries!
Even Martin Luther, the father of protestantism, honored the Blessed Mother!

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

SpiritualSon:

That’s why God us gave a mouth,to speak with Him,and not have others do it for us.

So, God told you this Himself? That our mouths are not to be used to intercede for others, but only to pray for ourselves?

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

truthseeker1:

Can you provide scriptures that back up what you say above? I have never seen any scriptures that refer to Mary as a “heavenly mother” or put her as a mediator between man and God.

The Scripture verse was quoted several times already, taken from Luke, “All ages shall call me blessed.”
The question is, do you ever call the Blessed Mother, “blessed?” Or is it just “Mary?” And why?

The Scriptures do not deify the Virgin Mother, and neither does the Church.

The Church does refer to her affectionately as our Heavenly Mother, because Jesus left His Mother to His Church as He hung from the Cross. Since she has now joined her Lord, Savior, & Son in heaven, she’s now called a “heavenly mother.” You might say that spiritually, she adopted everyone who calls himself a child of God and brother of Jesus. Again, therefore, she could be called our mother, in a spiritual sense, not earthly and biologically, but spiritually, heavenly. It’s a term of endearment.

Scripture tells us that there is no mediator between God and man, except Jesus. We do not hold that Mary has a divine nature. Only Jesus is fully man and fully God. Mary is only fully human. As far as some calling her a co-mediatrix, you must understand the prefix “co,” which does not make Mary equal to Jesus. It means that she “co” operated with God’s plan of salvation, which was for Jesus to be conceived, born, suffer, die, and rise again. She cooperated by consenting to Christ’s Conception and Birth, as well as accompanying Him during His Passion and Death.

It means she cooperated, not that she is “another” Mediator/Savior/Redeemer, etc.

Like it or not, God did choose Blessed Mary. He could have formed His earthly flesh out of dust, as He did with Adam. But He chose to have a Mother. And He chose Mary to be His Mother. We honor His choice.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[hawkeye]

When people insult Mary, they insult Jesus, Mary was the first abode of Jesus on earth (Tabernacle) would we be offended if someone insulted our mother ? I think we would.

 

[Pax]

truthseeker1:

Isn’t Billy Graham a high ranking freemason? I no longer respect him…I put him lower than Hugh Hefner…

Can you provide scriptures that back up what you say above? I have never seen any scriptures that refer to Mary as a “heavenly mother” or put her as a mediator between man and God.

Please read my post again. You insist on putting words in my mouth. I backed up in scripture what I said.

You might want to check again…you’re the first person I’ve ever heard call Billy Graham a freemason. However, we will make the assumption that your statement is true about Graham and that you do indeed respect Hugh Hefner more than Billy Graham. You’ve just proved my point that we do give different levels of respect to those in the earthly community. Therefore, you should give greater honor and respect to the mother of Jesus and follow scripture by calling her “blessed.”

 

[rod_of_iron]

jimmy:

The point is the bible is not the only source and if you think it is you are fooling yourself.

I know it is not the only source. But it is the only source that both the Catholics and I can both agree is sacred scripture. The Book of Mormon is also sacred scripture, but since you probably reject it, I don’t use it here.

jimmy:

The fact that it says nothing in the bible about a book that the people should read in order to learn the truth is a very big issue.

Really? In John 5:39, it reads, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”

2 Timothy 3:16 says, “And all scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

It seems clear that this Bible is important, because it was given by the inspiration of God. It has profit. What other scripture do you believe was given by the inspiration of God?

jimmy:

You reject this yet you still bring up the arguement that if it is not in the bible then it must be false.

I don’t reject this. But since the Bible is a book that I think we can both agree upon, I was hoping that the proof for Catholic doctrines and beliefs would be supported by the Bible.

jimmy:

The bible specifically calls the church the **pillar **and **ground **of truth. Why do you reject this?

I don’t reject this. What I do reject is that the Catholic church is the church referred to in that verse. That verse does not say that the Catholic church is the pillar and ground of truth. You cannot point to every mention of the word “church” and claim it is referring to the Catholic church. In geometry, I learned that you had to prove a hypothesis before you could use it to prove other hypotheses. The same thing goes for this matter. Before you can use the verses with the word “church” in them to prove the Catholic church, you must first prove that those verses are actually speaking of the Catholic church. Don’t assume. Prove it.

jimmy:

It seems that you take what you want and reject what does not fit your idea of Christianity.

Not at all. Rather, I don’t add insights and interpretations to the Bible that are not clearly in the Bible or supported by it. You seem to assume too much when reading the Bible.

jimmy:

It also says in Matthew that the gates of Hell will **not **prevail against his church.

Sure, Matthew says that death will not prevail against the church of Christ. We see near the end of the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) that eventually death and hell will deliver up its dead. Jesus conquered death so that it would never completely prevail over His church. We know this by reading 1 Corinthians 15:55, “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

 

[Pax]

Truthseeker1,

You gave the Amen and thumbsup to rod of iron for his statements which I had addressed and then you attempted to twist what I said in my post.

Now please understand this. Catholics do not believe what you are accusing us of. We believe that only Jesus Christ died for our sins. Only Jesus shed his blood in the perfect sacrifice to atone for the sin of Adam which separated man from God. Jesus is the sole mediator. No other person’s blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. That is Catholic teaching and you would not have that teaching or the bible if it were not for the Catholic Church.

Now that you know this and you can verify it by reading the Catholic Catechism and all of the Church’s historical documents, it is imperative that you live up to your nickname of truthseeker1 If you are to be honest and speaking the truth, you must never again say to anyone that Catholics believe that Mary is equal to Jesus in anyway. Drop your statements about the Church and Mary that do not coincide with Catholic teaching.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Pax:

Please read my post again. You insist on putting words in my mouth. I backed up in scripture what I said.

You might want to check again…you’re the first person I’ve ever heard call Billy Graham a freemason. However, we will make the assumption that your statement is true about Graham and that you do indeed respect Hugh Hefner more than Billy Graham. You’ve just proved my point that we do give different levels of respect to those in the earthly community. Therefore, you should give greater honor and respect to the mother of Jesus and follow scripture by calling her “blessed.”

But Pax, the examples you use are all living. Billy Graham and Hugh Hefner are both alive. I don’t have a problem with giving certain people more respect than others if they are alive. But giving someone who is dead respect to the point of religious devotion just does not make any sense. Also, if I do give Billy Graham more respect than I give Hugh Hefner, it is not religious devotion that I give him. Giving someone respect is quite different than giving that person your religious devotion.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Truthseeker1,

You gave the Amen and thumbsup to rod of iron for his statements which I had addressed and then you attempted to twist what I said in my post.

Now please understand this. Catholics do not believe what you are accusing us of. We believe that only Jesus Christ died for our sins. Only Jesus shed his blood in the perfect sacrifice to atone for the sin of Adam which separated man from God. Jesus is the sole mediator. No other person’s blood was shed for the forgiveness of our sins. That is Catholic teaching and you would not have that teaching or the bible if it were not for the Catholic Church.

Now that you know this and you can verify it by reading the Catholic Catechism and all of the Church’s historical documents, it is imperative that you live up to your nickname of truthseeker1 If you are to be honest and speaking the truth, you must never again say to anyone that Catholics believe that Mary is equal to Jesus in anyway. Drop your statements about the Church and Mary that do not coincide with Catholic teaching.

If Mary has not become somewhat equal to Jesus in the Catholic mind, why is she claimed to have appeared to humans as much if not more than Jesus does? Do other saints appear to humans on earth? If so, do they appear as frequently as Mary is claimed to? If not, I wonder why Mary is claimed to have appeared so many time, especially when she is yet in her spiritual body only.

 

[space_ghost]

Anglo-catholic:

I’m afraid that any Protestant - or anyone else would learn from these discussions is - If you dare to enter a Catholic (Roman) church - you had better be carrying a white flag or else you will get your head bit off.

Sorry to say I have tried about four threads and all become an apologetics debating match - with less civility than the official Catholic - Protestant debates.

I am here because I am searching. That search led me to leave the R.C. church over Marian doctrines. I have read several books by Protestant converts to see how they “got over” these issues. In all cases they recognized the authority (primacy) of Peter - then they accepted papal infallibility - and accepted the Marian doctrines on that basis. Others relied on the highly faulty “wouldn’t you do this for your mother if you were God” logic.

When you read the papal proclamations - they do not respond to any heresy or supposed dispute but the pope says he wants to encourage devotion to Mary so he makes acceptance of the doctrines mandatory or else suffer the loss of salvation. I can’t see what merit such devotions can have.

The doctrines may be true - maybe not - I don’t oppose anyone who accepts them - but I in good faith cannot. Since I was a Catholic I cannot hide behind the defense of limited knowledge as lifelong Protestants can. So according to the church I am damned (along with Luther, Huss and anyone else who knowingly leaves). Don’t think that a 50 year cradle Catholic who taught CCD to the 10 grade for five years leaves easily. It was agony. From what I know, neither did Luther or Huss.

There are those on this board that do seek truth, enrichment, insight, etc. For those I pray God bless and help you. ( I do pray every day for myself and all others (regardless of denomination) that God give them the peace they seek.

For those that use the board to show how well they know the faith, how they can quote Latin (I took four years), want to do battle with infidels, heretics, etc. ask yourself if your objective is to bring someone to Christ or if you want to stand on a pile of crushed bodies to feel like you are closer to heaven. God Bless - This is my last entry.

For those who don’t believe there is no explanation… for those who do believe… no explanation is necessary…

For 2000 plus years many much more informed than you or I have seen and believed… how is it that even though your eyes are open and are looking, you don’t see the grasshopper at your feet…

good luck in your search for truth…

 

[rod_of_iron]

Pax:

This statement must by its construction and content mean that Catholics somehow believe that Mary died so that our sins can be forgiven, and that we receive atonement from the shedding of her blood. If it is not your intention to suggest this, then make the effort to avoid these kinds of slurs against catholic teaching.

You have misunderstood me. I was not saying that the Catholic church believes that Mary died for your sins or that her blood atones for your sins. What I was saying was that if Mary did not die for our sins and if her blood does not atone for our sins, why should we give her the religion devotion that the Catholic church gives her. The fact that she gave birth to God in the flesh should not lift her up to such a devotion by association. It seems that Catholics just look for people to lift up and honor. If Mary was the only one who was given such honor by the Catholic church, it might almost be acceptable. But the Catholic church has multitudes of people that have been lifted up by the church to sainthood. It is funny; the Mormons have been called the God-makers. The Catholics are obviously the Saint-makers. When all is said and done, there probably isn’t too much difference between the Mormon gods and the Catholic saints. The Mormons believe that they can be exalted to godhood, and the Catholic church believes that certain people are exalted to sainthood. Both are examples of exaltation.

 

[Pax]

truthseeker1,

Since you somehow thought that I had argued in a previous post that Mary is a mediator and that I didn’t provide scripture, I will ask you once more to go back and read my posts. I didn’t bring that issue up at all. Attempting to refute what I did say by injecting this does not help your case. Since you apparently have some misconceptions in this area, I’ll attempt to explain what Catholics do believe about mediation.

When Catholics use the term “the one mediator” they take it straight from scripture. It refers to Jesus alone and encompasses everything that Jesus accomplished for our redemption. When catholics use the term “mediator” it can mean a number of things, but it never detracts from or infringes on that which refers to Jesus. Now, you’ve just heard this from a Catholic and you can check the Catholic Catechism and all the official writings of the Church to verify this. I assume that you will never make any reference to the contrary again.

When Catholics use the term “mediator” it is used in the sense of “co-worker.” Everything that we do as Christians to evangelize is as mediators and co-workers. As part of the body of Christ on earth we are supposed to be co-workers/mediators in Christ Jesus. Scripture makes this clear in many places, but for our purposes the following scriptures will suffice:

1 Cor 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, [ye are] God’s building.

2 Cor 6:1
As we work together with him, we urge you also not to accept the grace of God in vain.

3 Jn 1:8
Therefore we ought to support such people, so that we may become co-workers with the truth.

Mary is a co-worker with Jesus. In fact she did something that no other Christian, no matter how holy and faithfilled, will ever do. She bore the divine savior in her womb. She was formed and predestined by God for this purpose. She is unique and “blessed” among all of God’s co-workers in Christ. Now that you have heard it expressed in this way, please…never make untrue statements about Catholic beliefs in the future. If you are honest you will never do so.

 

[rod_of_iron]

Pax:

She was formed and predestined by God for this purpose.

The Bible does not claim this about Mary. Where does such an idea come from? Further revelation through a prophet of God?

 

[Katholikos]

rod of iron:

The Bible does not claim this about Mary. Where does such an idea come from? Further revelation through a prophet of God?

You have not presented any evidence to support your basic premise for your objections to this or any other Catholic doctrine: that the (66-book cut version of the) Bible contains the entire revelation of Almighty God.

Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible is the only source of evidence for the events of Christian history and that it contains everything that man needs to know about his salvation?

A few basic Bible facts unknown to most Protestants:

1. Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us a Church.
2. The Church wrote the NT and produced the Bible.
3. The Bible is not an instruction book for Christianity, as Protestants and other non-Catholics have tried to make it for the last 487 years.
4. The Bible does not contain the entire revelation of God.
5. The Bible is not a continuous book, but a collection of separate writings, written by different people in different locations, for different audiences and for different purposes. These writings were collected and named the New Testament by the Catholic Church, which also formed and named the Bible, when she was nearly 400 years old.

Answer the question please: What did Christians believe when there was no Bible?

Please see the thread on this forum, “History of the Bible.”

There are many more of these facts. I’m only mentioning five.

Peace be with all who post at Catholic Answers.

JMJ Jay

 

[Katholikos]

rod of iron:

. But the Catholic church has multitudes of people that have been lifted up by the church to sainthood. It is funny; the Mormons have been called the God-makers. The Catholics are obviously the Saint-makers. When all is said and done, there probably isn’t too much difference between the Mormon gods and the Catholic saints. The Mormons believe that they can be exalted to godhood, and the Catholic church believes that certain people are exalted to sainthood. Both are examples of exaltation.

To see no distinction between saints (human beings who have a human nature) and God (a Divine Being who has a Divine Nature) is a serious flaw in logic.

The Catholic Church *recognizes *saints. A saint is a human being who has lived such an exemplary Christian life that he has attained heaven – which all humans aspire to.

The LDS church teaches that when they die, Mormon men will become*** gods*** and rule over their own planets – exactly like the earth God, who – so they teach – was once a man like us. (Men only get to be a god if they meet the requirements such as giving 10% of their income to the Mormon church.)

You see no difference? Hmmmmmm.

Saint Damien, pray for us! Jay