Divine worship and the rise of ‘feel-good liturgy’

[CassiusLonginus]

Ethelzguy, you said:

Nice rhetoric, but not likely reality. Mass in a small rural parish was not the same as it would be at a cathedral. The small rural parish did not have the same facilities. Many did not even have an organ.

This is the same type of mistake that certain snooty people can have about their extreme wealth, namely, mistaking what they have with what they are.

The Tridentine Mass is the Tridentine Mass. Naturally the rubrics change depending on the circumstances (as you mentioned, certain churches may not have even had an organ, such as in the village where my father grew up), but a change in the rubrics is not the same as a change in the Mass.

The “nice rhetoric/not reality” is actually an invention of, and only typical within the Novus Ordo. Priests have no compunction about changing the words of prayers in the OF of the Mass as I’m sure you well know, which betrays a lack of humility never seen in celebrants of the EF. I experienced this every week for the first 23 years of my life.

Out of curiosity, since I’m brand new here, how often do you attend the EF (or, how many times in your life, total, have you been?). Thanks!

In Cordibus Iesu et Mariae,
C.L.

 

[CradleCath]

Ethelzguy, you said:

This is the same type of mistake that certain snooty people can have about their extreme wealth, namely, mistaking what they have with what they are.

The Tridentine Mass is the Tridentine Mass. Naturally the rubrics change depending on the circumstances (as you mentioned, certain churches may not have even had an organ, such as in the village where my father grew up), but a change in the rubrics is not the same as a change in the Mass.

The “nice rhetoric/not reality” is actually an invention of, and only typical within the Novus Ordo. Priests have no compunction about changing the words of prayers in the OF of the Mass as I’m sure you well know, which betrays a lack of humility never seen in celebrants of the EF. I experienced this every week for the first 23 years of my life.

Out of curiosity, since I’m brand new here, how often do you attend the EF (or, how many times in your life, total, have you been?). Thanks!

In Cordibus Iesu et Mariae,
C.L.

Welcome. I, too, experienced the Tridentine Mass for the first 25 yrs. of my life. Most of that time, I experienced it daily as a Catholic elementary & secondary school child. I Thank God & Pope Benedict that I can once again attend the Mass of the Ages. However, I’ll warn you…as a Traditional Catholic…you may not get the warmest welcome here.

 

[ethelzguy]

This is the same type of mistake that certain snooty people can have about their extreme wealth, namely, mistaking what they have with what they are.

The Tridentine Mass is the Tridentine Mass. Naturally the rubrics change depending on the circumstances (as you mentioned, certain churches may not have even had an organ, such as in the village where my father grew up), but a change in the rubrics is not the same as a change in the Mass.

The “nice rhetoric/not reality” is actually an invention of, and only typical within the Novus Ordo. Priests have no compunction about changing the words of prayers in the OF of the Mass as I’m sure you well know, which betrays a lack of humility never seen in celebrants of the EF. I experienced this every week for the first 23 years of my life.

Out of curiosity, since I’m brand new here, how often do you attend the EF (or, how many times in your life, total, have you been?). Thanks!

In Cordibus Iesu et Mariae,
C.L.

Being almost 71, I attended over 3000 old Latin Masses prior to Vatican II. And, if you peruse some other threads, you will note that there is a good bit of difference between the “old” Latin Mass many of us old geezers grew up with, and what is now being celebrated as the “TLM”.

Don’t let the traditionalist crowd kid you. The old Latin Mass, back in the day when it was “the Mass” wasn’t always celebrated with any particular reverence to get excited about. Back in my youth, many many kids rode around on Cushman scooters, many of which wound up in tatters…Find a nice Cushman today, and you’ll pay a princely sum. I think you get the picture.

 

[ethelzguy]

Welcome. I, too, experienced the Tridentine Mass for the first 25 yrs. of my life. Most of that time, I experienced it daily as a Catholic elementary & secondary school child. I Thank God & Pope Benedict that I can once again attend the Mass of the Ages. However, I’ll warn you…as a Traditional Catholic…you may not get the warmest welcome here.

You’ll generally find, the “warmth of ones welcome” here to be inversely proportionate to the holier-than-thou, more-Catholic-than-you rhetoric that you post.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

Hi CradleCath,

Sorry to confuse…Actually what I meant was that I experienced the OF, not the EF, for the first 23 years of my life which, as I got older, showed its celebrants to be…innovative, among other things. Since I first became aware of the EF, I haven’t once been back to the OF.

Ethelzguy,

Being almost 71, I attended over 3000 old Latin Masses prior to Vatican II.

Lol…I had a bad feeling I’d get exactly that response. But don’t think for one minute that I assumed you were a ‘geezer’. As they say, 70 is the new 50. Congratulation, pal, you’re halfway to heaven!

Seriously, though,

Don’t let the traditionalist crowd kid you. The old Latin Mass, back in the day when it was “the Mass” wasn’t always celebrated with any particular reverence to get excited about.

I don’t think I’ve been kidded into believing that celebrants of “the Mass” were always perfect, but I was talking as much about the form of the thing as I was of the reverence in which it is done. Naturally man often comes to realize the value of a thing only after it’s gone, and the EF is no different. It’s no surprise then that this part of the Church, at the very least, is truly experiencing a ‘new springtime’.

PS, I wouldn’t consider myself a holier-than-thou type of trad, but at the same time I do think there is a crisis in the church, especially in the ‘western’ world, which can be reflected in many of today’s ‘modern’ Catholics. I also try to avoid ‘rhetoric’ in general, if you know what I mean, and I keep in mind that you can fall out of a barque on either side.

 

[CradleCath]

You’ll generally find, the “warmth of ones welcome” here to be inversely proportionate to the holier-than-thou, more-Catholic-than-you rhetoric that you post.

I’m gonna’ need some examples of what you conside “holier-than-thou” & “more-Catholic-than-you” rhetoric in order to know what it is that your talking about. You can either link me to some posts or copy & paste, if you like.

I’m neither holier than anyone else or more Catholic. How about you??

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=CassiusLonginus;3926923]Hi CradleCath,

Sorry to confuse…Actually what I meant was that I experienced the OF, not the EF, for the first 23 years of my life which, as I got older, showed its celebrants to be…innovative, among other things. Since I first became aware of the EF, I haven’t once been back to the OF.

Innovative is such a nice way to put it. :yup:

 

[Like]

Being almost 71, I attended over 3000 old Latin Masses prior to Vatican II. And, if you peruse some other threads, you will note that there is a good bit of difference between the “old” Latin Mass many of us old geezers grew up with, and what is now being celebrated as the “TLM”.

**Don’t let the traditionalist crowd kid you.Documentation or proof PLEASE ** The old Latin Mass, back in the day when it was “the Mass” wasn’t always celebrated with any particular reverence to get excited about. Back in my youth, many many kids rode around on Cushman scooters, many of which wound up in tatters…Find a nice Cushman today, and you’ll pay a princely sum. I think you get the picture.

Well, not knowing where you were raised, back in the days when the “Old Latin Mass” was THE Mass, I can’t say how that Mass was said there. But if it, as you said, I’m very glad I wasn’t raised there! You have a year or so on me, but where I was raised the OLD Latin Mass was celebrated with great reverence.

I don’t know what Cushman motor scooters has got to do with this thread. But , if you would like to start thread in some other sub-forum I’d be happy to discuss it with you. Most of the time for the 1st. three years of marriage, Cushman was our only form of transportation. And for about the 1st. 6 yrs. of marriage I sold and rebuilt them. But that should be in another forum.

 

[ethelzguy]

I’m gonna’ need some examples of what you conside “holier-than-thou” & “more-Catholic-than-you” rhetoric in order to know what it is that your talking about. You can either link me to some posts or copy & paste, if you like.

Is this a rhetorical question?

 

[ethelzguy]

I don’t know what Cushman motor scooters has got to do with this thread. But , if you would like to start thread in some other sub-forum I’d be happy to discuss it with you. Most of the time for the 1st. three years of marriage, Cushman was our only form of transportation. And for about the 1st. 6 yrs. of marriage I sold and rebuilt them. But that should be in another forum.

It’s an analogy.

Back then Cushman’s, like the old Latin Mass was to be found all over on a regular basis. They were the norm, not unique.

Now it is different. A TLM, like a Cushman is rare. And when you do find one, it is decked out to the nines.

 

[ethelzguy]

I’m gonna’ need some examples of what you conside “holier-than-thou” & “more-Catholic-than-you” rhetoric in order to know what it is that your talking about. You can either link me to some posts or copy & paste, if you like.

One must look long and hard around these threads, to find a traditionalist Catholic, who doesn’t exude a sense of superiority either of self, or Mass attended.

 

[CradleCath]

Is this a rhetorical question?

Nope. It’s an honest question. What do you mean when you say “holier-than-thou”? I truly want to see some examples. I hope you’ll supply them.

 

[HelenRose]

One of the beautiful things I love about the Catholic Church is that it deals with the realities of life.

It may be a wonderful ideal to truly commune with God in “Divine Worship” but this is not achieved by not understanding the needs of people here and now.

I truly dislike labeling and the label “feel-good liturgy” is an especially denigrating label.

As a musician I love classical music, Gregorian Chant, and the ancient and beautiful songs. It is my desire to give this music to those in my congregation but for the most part they are farmers, ranchers: a hard working people, not terribly understanding nor tolerant to people who believe themselves to be more superior and righteous than they are.

I will never denigrate their music tastes but I will constantly strive to introduce what I love with the hope of their learning to love it also.

 

[Rosewith]

Reading the review and especially the passage that I quoted above reminded me of something that I read in “The Heresy of Formlessness” by Martin Mosebach:

There is much to be said for recognizing that what we are experiencing is, in a way, incomprehensible. This truth, should be reflected in our worship.

If the Last Supper was a Passover celebration, everyone present would have been very interactive. From the feelings expressed by the Trid. liturgy proponents, I am more impressed with their desire to “feel good” than people who prefer the Ordinary Rite.

 

[CradleCath]

If the Last Supper was a Passover celebration, everyone present would have been very interactive. From the feelings expressed by the Trid. liturgy proponents, I am more impressed with their desire to “feel good” than people who prefer the Ordinary Rite.

Posters, is this one of the posts that you quote as demeaning to people who attend the Novus Ordo??

 

[MissSherri]

Sometimes I want to be very alone at Mass. I have many things to think about when God is worshipped. The interaction between strangers seems to interrupt my heartfelt intentions and comes between me and God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I often find that I need to pray very intently after Communion yet I am constantly interrupted by the people who sit near me. Furthermore, our church is in a state of reconstruction and we cannot kneel because our services are in the gym. I am tempted to kneed on the floor because I feel this gives me a greater sense of talking with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

By the way, I am a newbie. I was just confirmed at Easter Vigil. I guess I’ll get used to it, won’t I.

 

[SJP]

If the Last Supper was a Passover celebration, everyone present would have been very interactive.

How would you respond to being at the foot of the cross?

 

[MissSherri]

I would take the nails of my sins and place them there and pray that my sins would be forgiven.

 

[CradleCath]

Sometimes I want to be very alone at Mass. I have many things to think about when God is worshipped. The interaction between strangers seems to interrupt my heartfelt intentions and comes between me and God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I often find that I need to pray very intently after Communion yet I am constantly interrupted by the people who sit near me. Furthermore, our church is in a state of reconstruction and we cannot kneel because our services are in the gym. I am tempted to kneed on the floor because I feel this gives me a greater sense of talking with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

By the way, I am a newbie. I was just confirmed at Easter Vigil. I guess I’ll get used to it, won’t I.

Congratulations & welcome. I, too, prefer a hushed atmosphere at Mass, the near absence of sound that one finds when “making a visit”…I don’t think that’s done anymore, but we used to just stop by a Church sometimes to pray & there might be 4-5 people there…doing the same thing. I long for the kind of quietness that one finds in our big, old, cavernous Cathedrals. My favorite is the Basilica in St. Louis, Mo. If you’re lucky the choir might be practicing & it’s a bit like heaven to listen to the Sacred music.

stlcathedralconcerts.org/site/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=44&page=view&catid=1&key=22&hit=1

Sorry to say that I haven’t gotten over the need for quietness at Mass. This is one of many reasons that I attend the Traditional Latin Mass.There is no visiting. There are no Extraordinary Eucharistic ministers or lectors, getting out of their seats & finding their way to the Sancutary. Niether do we shake or hold hands. There is stillness & quiet in which one can pray the Mass & worship God in peace. This is a rare thing for me, the absence of talking & “busyness”. It’s quite refreshing after the din of the world has literally worn one down.

In today’s world it seems as if people are almost afraid of silence & what they might “hear” within it. There is always a TV. in the background or a radio blaring.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

…and don’t forget that we all have cell phones. Walking down the street, driving in the car…there seems to be less silent reflection amongst all of us busy little bees, and a lot more music, talk, interaction, busy busy busy. I too love the silence of the Mass. Silence is golden, after all.