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rainbow1
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This is such an inspirational post!!! Thank you so much!!!
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rainbow1
Guest
Wow…this is so true…and you know, it brings to mind to me the parallel of what you speak of for the divorced family… that although there may be a divorce in a family , that we can choose to love our ex spouse ( even if the annulment ends up with a “null” statement) and hopefully effect changes for the better and more peace in the world…and “love” may not mean even talking with them, as in an abusive situation, but possibly could mean praying for them …a prayerful stance rather than a condemning one…that would leave open room for transformation…( I am hearing you Bryan!
)… Great post Mamaslo!
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Luvtosew
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Yes very nice, Trying to Learn , you have 3 kids to take care of also, don’t you, I know they must be a great inspiration to you also.
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TryingToLearn
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Your welcome. But I have to give credit to St. Ignatius, as well as a great priest, and an even better friend for developing the practice and making it such a fruitful part of my spiritual life.
Yep, they are definitely inspiration and motivation and much more… If my prayer life doesn’t keep me focused, they never fail to bring things back into focus. Though I’m sure there is a cause-effect relationship in there.Yes very nice, Trying to Learn , you have 3 kids to take care of also, don’t you, I know they must be a great inspiration to you also.
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NewEnglandPriest
Guest
Under the 1917 Code of Canon Law (canon 1130) the innocent party is under no obligation to ever restore marital life with an adulterous spouse.
However, even outside of that there if a spouse has issues with drugs/alcohol/violence the innocent spouse may believe the guilty spouse to be legitimately repentant but also unable to change his/her behavior.
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rainbow1
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Great point…
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ricofall
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Well, seeing how this is a tangent from this post, I will try to keep it short.
When I tell you this, keep in mind that I am not speaking for all. Just in case someone thinks that I am, I have to clarify it.
Faith is so important in Mexico because it is what unites a family. For example, on my mom’s side, there are 8 kids, on my fathers side there are 12
eek kids. When each side gets together, they share stories, they share food, and they share faith. As they get older, they see how faith play an important role in keeping the family together. They forgive each other because that is what Jesus said to do. They help the weakest of each other because the bible and Church told them to do it. They share in a love that uses faith to wrap it up and add a bow. Some go to church together. One of my aunts will always say “do not thank her, thank God” (in Spanish of course) when you thank them for anything they did for you. They do sin, but the love of a faithful family is more than enough to forgive and move on.Here, we consider big families a burden. They cost too much, to many mouths to feed, clothing cost a lot and so on. However, most faithful Mexicans welcome new life. If they really need assistance, then they can go to the Church. Most do not is my understanding because they feel that they are not really in need. Food to expensive? They cook at home. Clothing expensive? No name brands and lots of hand me downs. They seem to have answers for our problems with large families.
And when the family gets together and honors the parents, tears of love and joy are usually seen. Imagine having your grown children, grand children and more, gather around you and honor you because of your love for them and their love for you.
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rainbow1
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I just love how you said that they share in a love that uses faith to wrap it up and add a bow…that is wonderfully beautiful…Well, seeing how this is a tangent from this post, I will try to keep it short.
When I tell you this, keep in mind that I am not speaking for all. Just in case someone thinks that I am, I have to clarify it.
Faith is so important in Mexico because it is what unites a family. For example, on my mom’s side, there are 8 kids, on my fathers side there are 12
Here, we consider big families a burden. They cost too much, to many mouths to feed, clothing cost a lot and so on. However, most faithful Mexicans welcome new life. If they really need assistance, then they can go to the Church. Most do not is my understanding because they feel that they are not really in need. Food to expensive? They cook at home. Clothing expensive? No name brands and lots of hand me downs. They seem to have answers for our problems with large families.
And when the family gets together and honors the parents, tears of love and joy are usually seen. Imagine having your grown children, grand children and more, gather around you and honor you because of your love for them and their love for you.
…I so am getting that image of grown children, grand children, and more all gathered around…that is a very healing thought…especially good for those who have had a divorce to think that the family may one day grow again with grandchildren and great grandchildren…
Thanks so much Ricofall…
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FCGeorge
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Hello Father,
1152 § 1. It is earnestly recommended that a spouse, motivated by Christian charity and solicitous for the good of the family, should not refuse to pardon an adulterous partner and should not sunder the conjugal life. Nevertheless, if that spouse has not either expressly or tacitly condoned the other’s–fault, he-o-r she-has the right to sever tho common conjugal life, provided he or she has not consented to the’ adultery, nor been the cause of it, nor also committed adultery.
Why do you suppose it is “earnestly recommended?”
Will Christ ever say to Carol, “I forgive you Carol, but you will never reside with Me in Heaven. I forgive you but you will never reconcile with Me. You will never be my bride again. But don’t worry Carol, I am no longer angry at you. And I feel better!”
I would not choose to be Carol and stand in front of our Blessed Lord one day and say, “But, but, but, the letter of the law said that it was only 'earnestly recommended’ that I not refuse to pardon my spouse. It didn’t say that I *had to *forgive him. Actually, Lord, my counselor said that I did forgive him. I wasn’t mad at him any more. I got rid of all my bitterness and I felt better!”
Let’s say a man has a car accident and ends up with “issues” with pain killers. Are we now telling wives that they can abandon their husbands through this sickness and that they never need to be open to reconciliation upon their husbands’ true repentance?
Let’s say that a wife gets back from Iraq and develops “issues” with alcohol. Are we now telling husbands that they can abandon their wives through this sickness? And that they no longer need to be open to reconciliation upon their wives’ true repentance?
Yes, I understand that if their is “grave mental or physical danger” then that would be cause for separation. But we must also faithfully teach this…
1153 §2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.
Out of true charity and charitable truth… for the reconciliation of families and the salvation of souls.
Father, I am curious, do you believe that Saint Monica would now be known as “Saint” Monica if she had said, “My husband Patritius is a cruel man who mentally abuses me. I am going to leave him and take my children with me. I will never reconcile with him. Actually, he is a pagan so I am going to petition for an annulment because I believe I am really not married to him. The marriage wasn’t Sacramental and I was married outside the Church so it is not even valid. I was married by arrangement and I was so very young. I surely didn’t know what I meant by saying I would love him until death. I am so unhappy and the letter of the law says that I can get myself an annulment and find some younger man who will make me happy.”
St. Monica picked up her cross just as her Blessed Lord picked up His. She is now married to Him forever in Heaven.
We have made Christ so much like us that we need not become like Him.
Our current culture’s faith is as far from St. Monica’s as the east is from the west. We now ask things like, “how can I get an annulment?” And we feel no shame in pronouncing that we are “seeking” an annulment. These questions and comments reveal hearts that are not seeking first the truth.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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joanofarc2008
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A Saint is one that does something of heroic virtue - it is above and beyond what is expected of everyday people and what is necessary to get into Heaven. This is why they are a Canonized Saint.
Holding everyone up to these standards is presumptious and a matter of pride or just scupulous. Either way it is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
Saints are a good example for living but we should not look to martyr ourselves unless it is necessary.
Holding everyone up to these standards is presumptious and a matter of pride or just scupulous. Either way it is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
Saints are a good example for living but we should not look to martyr ourselves unless it is necessary.
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NewEnglandPriest
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You need to reread the canon you quoted. Yes it earnestly recommends forgiveness however it clearly states that marital life can indefinitely/permanently be refused by the innocent spouse. It is clearly drawing a distinction between forgiveness of a particular act and resumption of martial life.
What’s recommended for eternal life is not necessarily recommended for the here and now. An insane person will be healed and welcomed into eternal life, however you wouldn’t let them babysit your kids.
So now you no longer believe that Christ speaks through His Church?
I’m not sure what your obsession is with taking serious issues and then presenting them in a rather trivial manner. When people talk about drug addiction as the root of issues in their marriage they’re rarely referring to a passing addiction to pain killers by an injured person.
What God asks of one person He does not necessarily ask of all. Have you sold everything you own as Jesus asked some people to do?
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FCGeorge
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Good morning Father,
Where does it clearly state that a marital life can indefinitely/permanently be refused??
Can. 1152
§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.
Can. 1153
§2. In all cases, when the cause for the separation ceases, conjugal living must be restored unless ecclesiastical authority has established otherwise.
Even if you want to say that canon law does give us a particular sin that we need not forgive with a Christ-like forgiveness… I would have a difficult time asking to be “forgiven as I forgive those who sin against me” unless I add, “except my adulterous wife… please do not forgive me as I forgive her.”
Father, we do not enter into covenant relationships, giving our very selves to the other, with our babysitter. We do, however, enter into covenant relationships with our spouses, giving our very selves to our spouse for life. Just as our God enters a covenant relationship with us. Only we, through our sin, exit that relationship. He is always, however, ready to welcome us back into that relationship. I am simply saying that we imitate Him with our spouses. I am sorry that you do not agree, but I’m not trying to convince you.
Of course He speaks through His Church. His Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. However, are you saying that canon law is infallible? Also, do you think it is Christ-like" for Carol to “forgive” like this?
Father, does God ask every valid spouse to remain faithful to their vows for life? If not, why do the spouses commit to this in their vows?
A couple children need to be raised and the devil’s lies need to be fought. But, I guess, if you call that “selling everything you own” then, while definitely not perfectly selfless, this is certainly where time and funds are going. But definitely not in a way that you and other priests have Father. I appreciate, admire and respect the way some priests give their whole selves in service of Christ. I’m not sure how there could be a purer imitation of Christ on this earth.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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NewEnglandPriest
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1152 § 1. It is earnestly recommended that a spouse, motivated by Christian charity and solicitous for the good of the family, should not refuse to pardon an adulterous partner and should not sunder the conjugal life. **Nevertheless, if that spouse has not either expressly or tacitly condoned the other’s–fault, he-o-r she-has the right to sever tho common conjugal life, provided he or she has not consented to the’ adultery, nor been the cause of it, nor also committed adultery. **
§3. If the innocent spouse has severed conjugal living voluntarily, the spouse is to introduce a cause for separation within six months to the competent ecclesiastical authority which, after having investigated all the circumstances, is to consider carefully whether the innocent spouse can be moved to forgive the fault and not to prolong the separation permanently.
Notice the carefully worded canons. It clearly anticipates the possibility of a permanent separation.
What you feel comfortable doing or not doing does not bind anyone else.
What you’re failing to see is that there’s differences between God and us. We do not have complete and total knowledge of each other’s hearts, intentions and wills. When it comes to the physical, emotional, and psychological safety of the individual and their children careful consideration needs to be made. When someone’s behavior endangers adults or, worse, children we don’t just ask them to say they’re sorry.
For example, if your spouse had molested children would you simply take their word for it that they were sorry and would never do it again? Would you ever leave your children alone with that individual again? I doubt it.
I think the Church is avoiding being Pharisaic (Mt 23:4).
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Melissa
Guest
I corrected the emphasis for you. Quite frankly, it is not the place of those who were outside the marriage to make judgments as to when the cause for separation has ceased.
Suppose that adulterous husband became infected with a non-curable disease, or that he refuses to test for diseases. Should the innocent wife take him back on his “I’m so sorry, it’ll never happen again?” Should this information be shared with anyone? Without that information, how can anyone else judge his sincerity in repentance?
In the case of abuse, that “I’m so sorry, it’ll never happen again” is part of the cycle. Remember, too, that many abusers are fully capable of turning on the charm, of behaving in a completely different manner around others, and sounding so genuinely contrite that outsiders who know nothing of the realities within the marriage say “you’re obliged to resume conjugal life because he’s genuinely repentant”.
I’m not sure what your dog is in this hunt, Bryan. However, the facile application of “but the law says” and trivializing some of the very real situations in which it becomes appropriate to legally separate (including civil divorce) betray a lack of understanding and a willingness to alienate those who all too sadly do know these situations.
Yes, there is a difference between forgiving and resuming the marital life. Even after forgiveness, it may remain, at the very best, imprudent to resume marital life.
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rainbow1
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Morning Bryan…hope you are well.
You made a comment about having a difficult time asking God for forgiveness if you told God you did not want to forgive your adulterous wife, and also towards the end of your note you mentionned something about raising a couple children.
I know ALOT of the posts on this thread have been from men whose wives have left and who are raising children. Being a female, I don’t have the same experience…yes, I have been left behind and am virtually alone in providing any emotional support or spiritual education to my children… but still, I know the dynamics of the experience must be different for you guys. And I am curious about it.
So, here is my question to you, Bryan, and to any of you other guys out there in this type situation. What is it like to walk in your shoes? What is it like to be left by a woman and then to raise children and/or be the bulk of their spiritual formation? What are the feelings that go along with this? How do the children respond to you? Do you feel as if you are trying to play the role of father and mother? Is it really difficult? How do you see your kids responding to the situation? What is the typical day like for you? How do you grieve and still keep hope? What are your dreams for your children? How do you use your experience of divorce to help the children grow spiritually?
I am very interested in this. I see alot of guys in this thread going to heroic proportions to basically “sell all” and provide selflessly to their children. Quite frankly, it is a pure joy and quite healing to me to see this, as my exhusband is not involved at all in the spiritual formation of our children. Please share!
You made a comment about having a difficult time asking God for forgiveness if you told God you did not want to forgive your adulterous wife, and also towards the end of your note you mentionned something about raising a couple children.
I know ALOT of the posts on this thread have been from men whose wives have left and who are raising children. Being a female, I don’t have the same experience…yes, I have been left behind and am virtually alone in providing any emotional support or spiritual education to my children… but still, I know the dynamics of the experience must be different for you guys. And I am curious about it.
So, here is my question to you, Bryan, and to any of you other guys out there in this type situation. What is it like to walk in your shoes? What is it like to be left by a woman and then to raise children and/or be the bulk of their spiritual formation? What are the feelings that go along with this? How do the children respond to you? Do you feel as if you are trying to play the role of father and mother? Is it really difficult? How do you see your kids responding to the situation? What is the typical day like for you? How do you grieve and still keep hope? What are your dreams for your children? How do you use your experience of divorce to help the children grow spiritually?
I am very interested in this. I see alot of guys in this thread going to heroic proportions to basically “sell all” and provide selflessly to their children. Quite frankly, it is a pure joy and quite healing to me to see this, as my exhusband is not involved at all in the spiritual formation of our children. Please share!
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rainbow1
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On the topic of abuse and divorce…I think people have to be very careful in determining whether or not to leave an abusive situation when children are involved…once a civil divorce happens, then the judge (and oftentimes NOT the spouses) decide the placement of the children. In other words, a mother (or a father) may not WANT to leave their children alone with an emotionally or physically abusive spouse but may legally HAVE to do so. And believe me, at least in the state of SC, the guardian ad litems don’t necessarily have the children’s best interest in mind. Unless a child has a physical mark on their body, then the court likely is not able to or willing to defend the child. The opposing attorney will make comments such as, “the child testifying does not have a mature concept of what happened” or the child was “prompted to say things by the one parent”…
On the surface, most of us would say to a person to get out of an abusive situation, but the reality is that children oftentimes do not, even if the parent does, and then the child is left alone in a situation where the other parent cannot even protect the child.
Court systems can be really ugly things that do not have decency on their minds. And they sure don’t have the importance of raising a child in a spiritual environment on their priority list.
On the surface, most of us would say to a person to get out of an abusive situation, but the reality is that children oftentimes do not, even if the parent does, and then the child is left alone in a situation where the other parent cannot even protect the child.
Court systems can be really ugly things that do not have decency on their minds. And they sure don’t have the importance of raising a child in a spiritual environment on their priority list.
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rainbow1
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Father, I agree with you wholeheartedly that a person can’t just simply take someone’s word for it that they would never do it again. In fact, that is one of the major goals in therapy for a person who has been abused by another person to begin to set boundaries between themselves and the abuser and for the person to begin to believe they are worth more than that type of treatment. We as Catholics believe in the sanctity of life when it comes to abortion…but our beliefs in the sanctity of life also need to include each and every one of us…our lives are precious and need to be guarded from “life killing” situations, which even emotional abuse is.
Thanks for your continued support on this thread…you are a blessing to us!
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oneofmany
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catholicsdivorce.com/
EWTN radio had this subject on last night. They gave this web site. I thought I heard the priest say the woman on here has had 2 marriages annulled.
EWTN radio had this subject on last night. They gave this web site. I thought I heard the priest say the woman on here has had 2 marriages annulled.
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vsedriver
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I am an abandoned spouse. Two weeks after our 22nd Anniversary my husband left. There was no sign or hint he was unhappy with me or our marriage. He’d given me an expensive necklace and we went out for our Anniversary. In fact, things in our lives were getting better. It was a total, total shock. It was a shock to everyone in our circle.
I went to my priest right away. He said there was no valid reason, no matter how awful I might have been, for my husband to leave. My husband never went to the priest. He flatly refused to see a counselor. In the end, I was forced to file for divorce. He had been the main breadwinner in our marriage. I had only recently gone back to work full time after being home with our 2 boys for 15 years. I had no choice but to file for divorce if I were to keep a roof over our heads.
Hoping for reconciliation nearly destroyed me. I’ve finally accepted that he is gone forever. As a devote Catholic I must live a celibate and single life. My cross to bear. I am blessed to have a loving, extended family and two teenage children who love me deeply. But it must be hell for those who don’t have a good support system. I also found no ministry to Catholics who’ve had to divorce.
As a devout Catholic I am not seeking an annulment. I can see no reason to find our marriage vows faulty. I’m very active in my parish and on the parish council and partake of the sacraments.
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styrgwillidar
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