Divorce

[styrgwillidar]

Mamaslo,

  I don't know if you're familiar with Anne Sheffield or her books and website/forums. I found 'Depression Fallout' invaluable. In fact, it helped get my wife and I through her first diagnosed period of severe depression about 8 yrs ago. It helped for her and I to be able to point to things in the book that expressed how each of us was feeling and experiencing the situation.

depressionfallout.org

There’s actually a book she recommends by a Dr. who views depression as the root cause of a lot of divorces, so I think depression/MI is certainly relevant to the topic of divorce and separation.

 

[vsedriver]

I’m really, really sorry to hear of the awful situation that you’ve found yourself in, seemingly through no fault of your own. It sounds like you’ve really been able to lean on your faith to help you move through all these difficulties, and that’s inspiring to read…!

 

[rainbow1]

Actually, I think it depends. I struggle with depression. Often folks will just say…“oh, things will look up soon” but if you have that, well they might or they might get worse. I am on a different site with others who have depression, and the very interesting thing is that I can describe to them what I am feeling and they can respond because the feelings are common and have common similarities.

One of the common things people mention is that their spouse just doesn’t “get” how they feel or understand or take seriously the gloomy feeling of falling into a black hole or negative voices from the ghosts of those who came before that moment and the ghosts of gossips who talk about others in front or to you and then those voices say…they talk about you that way…

Some disorders just won’t allow the ill person to look outside toward another person to be one with. Others can, but have to work on it. Some can take a magic pill and it fixes it, but if they don’t at least talk about it, then chances for healing are highly limited. I found great comfort in knowing the things I experience is common among depressed folks.

If you are still asking about mental health, then look at the Depression and Bipolar Support Alliance and some others. They also have forums for family members…then sometimes those family members fall ill as well and need support or at least encouragement to guard their own health. My guess is that maybe you tasted a situational depression when it came to an end or was going that way. You seem chipper now, but if you could look back on your feelings, and realize your physical resources were tapped out and collect those memories, you may understand a little better how someone feels on a regular basis and maybe something started it, maybe they are inclined toward it biologically.
Now that you both mentioned that they may have not felt good enough. Not because of anything bad you did, but because they feel irreparably broken and you shouldn’t have to deal with that.
in some way, maybe you were not able to communicate through their bottomless need to be loved…that you do indeed love.

if it was some other MI then sorry I went into the depression topic so much.

I am glad you have reached out and found a group that is helpful to you in dealing with depression. My ex had resonded in a different way and shut the world out, including me, despite my wishes to help. And then when he did reach out, it wasn’t to me. Sad thing, but at least he reached out to people and tried to keep living. For that, I am so grateful to our Lord.

 

[vsedriver]

The way I read your note was that you wrote out of compassion…wanting to make sure that she realized that it was every bit “as devout” to pursue an annulment if she chose to rather than live alone …but that you weren’t trying to push her in that direction if living alone is her true personal choice… this is the problem with emails, we don’t always know exactly what the person is thinking…but it works in the long run if we keep communicating…

I took Gorgias post as supportive but I sometimes think it is hard for people to understand how the abandoned spouse feels about the marriage. I think the worse thing you can say to an abandoned spouse is “oh, you’ll meet someone new.” As if that makes all the pain and hurt go away. I understand that Gorgias said that an annulment is a means to determine a valid marriage. But if you need to go through that process to free yourself of an over 20 year marriage… well I find that hard to do.

It’s like saying that all these years I wasn’t really married. I know I was, maybe he wasn’t but I was.

 

[rainbow1]

Gorgias;8900746:

the church community has been wonderful. I still work with my women church friends although it is hard to hear them talk about their wonderful husbands. I used to love telling people about my wonderful husband. I never spoke ill of him as I never liked to hear people diss their spouse so that’s partly why everyone was so shocked.

No, by devout I meant that my faith is central in my life. I’ve studied my faith over the years to help me gain in wisdom and to be a good role model for my sons. Both are teenagers and still serve at Mass. They go to Mass every Sunday and Holiday.

None, that I am aware of. We were not young when we married I was 32 and knew full well what I was doing and what my vows meant.

Well that is true, I can only speak from my point of view. But I made a commitment and I stand by my commitment. I take my vows very seriously.

At this point it doesn’t much matter why he left. After 22 years, I would think if there was a fault at the beginning it would have shown up sooner. Personally, I think he was unhappy with his life. Some people have such high expectations that when things don’t go the way they think they should they walk away and try to start over. I was happy with what we had, I didn’t need a big, expensive house, a nice car, or expensive clothes. I was rich in a loving extended family and two wonderful kids. Funny thing is, he has all the money but I am richer than he is.

I can’t speak for him. But it was sacramental for me. At my age, I don’t see much point in seeking an annulment. I have no intention of ever marrying again. I don’t think I could ever trust another man to risk going through this all over again. My kids don’t need to deal with a ‘step’ father even at their late age. If he seeks an annulment then I guess we will find out but I am married in my heart and that will have to do for now.

Thank you for the prayers, I can really use them!

Lots of people who get annulments still do take their vows seriously…but realize years down the road that their vows are not binding. I take my vows seriously, but I also realize that it was a large mistake to make the vows and I believe it to actually have been sinful. I don’t believe that God accepted the vows. It takes three for that covenant to be binding… two spouses and God. If God was saying “no way, this isn’t what I have intended to have happen”, then the other vows are not binding.
I am not saying your vows were not binding…just that there are plenty of people who also take their vows very seriously and who also realize that their vows were not of the sacramental nature.
I guess the question remains…if I said vows to a person and my marriage is found to be null in the Church, then do my vows still bind? I don’t believe they do. I know that some people do believe they do…and I guess that is where discernment comes into play.

 

[mamaslo]

Mamaslo,

  I don't know if you're familiar with Anne Sheffield or her books and website/forums. I found 'Depression Fallout' invaluable. In fact, it helped get my wife and I through her first diagnosed period of severe depression about 8 yrs ago. It helped for her and I to be able to point to things in the book that expressed how each of us was feeling and experiencing the situation.

depressionfallout.org

There’s actually a book she recommends by a Dr. who views depression as the root cause of a lot of divorces, so I think depression/MI is certainly relevant to the topic of divorce and separation.

Well, I can see why it is relevant. ayup!

 

[mamaslo]

I am glad you have reached out and found a group that is helpful to you in dealing with depression. My ex had resonded in a different way and shut the world out, including me, despite my wishes to help. And then when he did reach out, it wasn’t to me. Sad thing, but at least he reached out to people and tried to keep living. For that, I am so grateful to our Lord.

I am “feeling you” in my heart right now, rainbow1. (hope that doesn’t sound kooky, it is meant to mean empathetically).

I feel your sadness when you say that.

 

[rainbow1]

I took Gorgias post as supportive but I sometimes think it is hard for people to understand how the abandoned spouse feels about the marriage. I think the worse thing you can say to an abandoned spouse is “oh, you’ll meet someone new.” As if that makes all the pain and hurt go away. I understand that Gorgias said that an annulment is a means to determine a valid marriage. But if you need to go through that process to free yourself of an over 20 year marriage… well I find that hard to do.

It’s like saying that all these years I wasn’t really married. I know I was, maybe he wasn’t but I was.

Actually, I was abandonned after 27 years of marriage…but the reality of my marriage is that it really had many difficulties from square one…sounds like maybe yours didn’t. Plus the other thing is that finding someone new isn’t necessarily the same thing as forget the old or negate the fact that the former relationship was special in your heart and can’t be replaced. I have read that a person should wait 5 years for each year they were married before embarking on a new relationship. The thing with the annulment process is that it takes a long time. So does healing from a divorce.

 

[rainbow1]

I am “feeling you” in my heart right now, rainbow1. (hope that doesn’t sound kooky, it is meant to mean empathetically).

I feel your sadness when you say that.

Thank you, my friend.

 

[mamaslo]

Actually, I was abandonned after 27 years of marriage…but the reality of my marriage is that it really had many difficulties from square one…sounds like maybe yours didn’t. Plus the other thing is that finding someone new isn’t necessarily the same thing as forget the old or negate the fact that the former relationship was special in your heart and can’t be replaced. I have read that a person should wait 5 years for each year they were married before embarking on a new relationship. The thing with the annulment process is that it takes a long time. So does healing from a divorce.

I think that saying “oh, you will find someone new” might invalidate the feelings the person is currently having. Maybe, “let’s go get some coffee” or “can I sit here with you a while?” i think to say you will find someone new to someone might not connect with them. It drives me crazy to hear it. I feel somehow the point was missed when someone says that, as if you just can’t survive in your current state without someone or not acknowledging that maybe just being a friend is important to them. or liken it to a family pet you didn’t care much about.

I don’t think it is a good idea to embrace romance as a fix for a broken heart either. It may give you nice feelings but that isn’t necessarily what someone needs.

just talking…

 

[TryingToLearn]

Morning Bryan…hope you are well.
You made a comment about having a difficult time asking God for forgiveness if you told God you did not want to forgive your adulterous wife, and also towards the end of your note you mentionned something about raising a couple children.
I know ALOT of the posts on this thread have been from men whose wives have left and who are raising children. Being a female, I don’t have the same experience…yes, I have been left behind and am virtually alone in providing any emotional support or spiritual education to my children… but still, I know the dynamics of the experience must be different for you guys. And I am curious about it.
So, here is my question to you, Bryan, and to any of you other guys out there in this type situation. What is it like to walk in your shoes? What is it like to be left by a woman and then to raise children and/or be the bulk of their spiritual formation? What are the feelings that go along with this? How do the children respond to you? Do you feel as if you are trying to play the role of father and mother? Is it really difficult? How do you see your kids responding to the situation? What is the typical day like for you? How do you grieve and still keep hope? What are your dreams for your children? How do you use your experience of divorce to help the children grow spiritually?
I am very interested in this. I see alot of guys in this thread going to heroic proportions to basically “sell all” and provide selflessly to their children. Quite frankly, it is a pure joy and quite healing to me to see this, as my exhusband is not involved at all in the spiritual formation of our children. Please share!

I keep starting a response to this, then trying to answer so many questions my post becomes a rambling series of incoherent ideas that would cure insomnia… So, rather than trying to answer every question. I’ll just try to answer one now… then maybe another later…

Is it really difficult?

Yes and no. Before she left, from the moment I started contemplating the possibility it seemed impossibly difficult. It didn’t matter how much I prayed or focused on God trying to put my Trust in Him to see me through, there was still fear that I wouldn’t be able to manage.

Of course, God is faithful.

Has it been hard? Yes. But, raising kids WITH my wife was hard. Is it harder? I don’t know how to measure that, it’s different. I can’t split duties with my wife any longer, I have less free time, and some stuff just isn’t important enough to be done as regularly as it once got done around our house. The kids have had to adjust some, taking on new responsibilities, giving up old, changing the way things are done to be more efficient for a one parent household.

But one thing hasn’t changed, one thing isn’t more difficult. Our spiritual life. Actually, that’s not true it has changed, first it’s probably easier, second it grown. All four of us have experienced God’s grace carrying us from my wife’s departure to today. We’ve been through days where nothing seems to be able to go right, we stop and pray together and everyone calms down and things start to go right.

I guess I’m answering some other questions too, because those moments of grace end up being opportunities to witness and teach about God…

My oldest daughter is unmistakably a teenager, rebellious, skeptical, and she knows everything. Before my wife moved out, she was entering a phase where getting her to pray with the family could be like pulling teeth. Briefly, after my wife left, it became harder to get her to pray. But, after a couple instances where she witnessed God’s answer to her/our prayers and she is now the initiator of family prayer many times…

So, ya. Being a parent has always been hard. Some things are harder. Some are different and still hard. But some parts? They are easier…

 

[mamaslo]

I am glad you have reached out and found a group that is helpful to you in dealing with depression. My ex had resonded in a different way and shut the world out, including me, despite my wishes to help. And then when he did reach out, it wasn’t to me. Sad thing, but at least he reached out to people and tried to keep living. For that, I am so grateful to our Lord.

This place helps but doesn’t integrate my religious beliefs, that part can be tricky in that forum. So many hurting people and many of these people are victims of abuse as children and young adults…abused by those who were religious, so they have real problems with religion and they require compassion. My heart breaks for them as well, but…they are learning about different techniques that keep them reminded to be in the present and not worry about the past or the future because they can become easily overwhelmed.

Sometimes I can share aspects of my faith…but the one “catholic” has her own issues and gets triggered when I talk about church teachings, so while they are supportive in many ways, they are all truly wounded and require compassion, so we meet on other interests…most of the time. I am not ashamed of my faith, but I know I don’t like being beaten up by it either, so I figure if I am patient, then from time to time I might be allowed to share.

rambling some more, but rainbow, I thought you might find it at least interesting.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I have read that a person should wait 5 years for each year they were married before embarking on a new relationship.

You sure about that math?

 

[rainbow1]

I keep starting a response to this, then trying to answer so many questions my post becomes a rambling series of incoherent ideas that would cure insomnia… So, rather than trying to answer every question. I’ll just try to answer one now… then maybe another later…

Yes and no. Before she left, from the moment I started contemplating the possibility it seemed impossibly difficult. It didn’t matter how much I prayed or focused on God trying to put my Trust in Him to see me through, there was still fear that I wouldn’t be able to manage.

Of course, God is faithful.

Has it been hard? Yes. But, raising kids WITH my wife was hard. Is it harder? I don’t know how to measure that, it’s different. I can’t split duties with my wife any longer, I have less free time, and some stuff just isn’t important enough to be done as regularly as it once got done around our house. The kids have had to adjust some, taking on new responsibilities, giving up old, changing the way things are done to be more efficient for a one parent household.

But one thing hasn’t changed, one thing isn’t more difficult. Our spiritual life. Actually, that’s not true it has changed, first it’s probably easier, second it grown. All four of us have experienced God’s grace carrying us from my wife’s departure to today. We’ve been through days where nothing seems to be able to go right, we stop and pray together and everyone calms down and things start to go right.

I guess I’m answering some other questions too, because those moments of grace end up being opportunities to witness and teach about God…

My oldest daughter is unmistakably a teenager, rebellious, skeptical, and she knows everything. Before my wife moved out, she was entering a phase where getting her to pray with the family could be like pulling teeth. Briefly, after my wife left, it became harder to get her to pray. But, after a couple instances where she witnessed God’s answer to her/our prayers and she is now the initiator of family prayer many times…

So, ya. Being a parent has always been hard. Some things are harder. Some are different and still hard. But some parts? They are easier…

Trying to learn…I can so relate to God’s grace helping to reach the children. I think I mentionned some 300 posts earlier (or more…hahahaha) that God has blessed me with lots of rainbows during the course of the divorce. And knowing this, one day my eldest daughter said to me that she felt God should actually give us multiple rainbows on a day that multiple things go wrong. Shortly thereafter, I heard her yelling for me to go outside…no joke, there were about 4 or 5 rainbows piled up on top of one another. I had never seen such before or ever since. It was totally amazing. And to get that grace was so wonderful. There is nothing on the face of this earth like staring our Lord in the face. And when we see things like these little miracles, or see a person who is compassionate in spite of a person’s poor judgement, or who can excuse someone for being a nincompoop…sorry, I don’t know how to spell that, but it is the only word that works, or receive or are able to give forgivness that isn’t deserved, then we truly can see the face of our Dear God in person. Isn’t that a miracle that your teenager now starts some of your families prayer sessions!!! Not too many families ever have the joy of seeing that. Isn’t it a miracle despite the pain you have felt, that you still can feel the Love and Peace of our Lord as you “rest in His arms” in your daily meditative practices that you described so beautifully in your earlier post, which none of us can forget, by the way.
I was listening to a radio show today which said that even when we feel God isn’t directly working for the benefit of our children, that the truth is that He is. That in fact, He is always working for the benefit of our kids, even harder than we are, because He loves them so much. I think your story exemplifies that so well…what a blessing that He is helping your children to now be able to also witness for Him…such good stuff comes out of the difficult stuff…

 

[rainbow1]

You sure about that math?

Dont ever count on my math skills! It was one year for every five years they were married…so if you were married 25 years , you would wait 5 years optimally…or if you were married 15 years you would wait 3 years to start dating…or if you were married 10 years you would wait 2 years. I had been married almost 25 years when my husband left and now I am at 4 1/2 years, and can see the big difference in how I see things now from how I saw things then…I think the approximation was pretty good…some people think that 5 or 6 years would be a long time to wait, but if you were married a long time, it truly seems to me to take quite awhile to process things…and sort things out…

 

[rainbow1]

This place helps but doesn’t integrate my religious beliefs, that part can be tricky in that forum. So many hurting people and many of these people are victims of abuse as children and young adults…abused by those who were religious, so they have real problems with religion and they require compassion. My heart breaks for them as well, but…they are learning about different techniques that keep them reminded to be in the present and not worry about the past or the future because they can become easily overwhelmed.

Sometimes I can share aspects of my faith…but the one “catholic” has her own issues and gets triggered when I talk about church teachings, so while they are supportive in many ways, they are all truly wounded and require compassion, so we meet on other interests…most of the time. I am not ashamed of my faith, but I know I don’t like being beaten up by it either, so I figure if I am patient, then from time to time I might be allowed to share.

rambling some more, but rainbow, I thought you might find it at least interesting.

Maybe there is a support group for depression in CAF? If not, maybe you could start one…I think the incidence of depression in the population facing these types of spiritual questions/ and or issues must be extremely high. What part of our faith helps you when you feel depressed? Long ago, when my youngest child was seriously ill, a lady off an online support group for parents of chronically ill children sent me a book that was about Bible Promises. It was such a great help to me. At night, when my depression and anxiety was at a max, I could reach over and pick up my book and read page after page of promises the Lord gave us…it always seemed to help. Sort of reminds me of what Trying to Learn said about meditating on things he is thankful for as one of the three parts of his daily prayer ritual. What works for you?

 

[rainbow1]

You sure about that math?

Father, you are so making me laugh…I would be 125 years old if we followed my first formula…maybe that is what God would like!!! Knowing all that happened in my first marriage it might be a good goal…!

 

[rainbow1]

I think that saying “oh, you will find someone new” might invalidate the feelings the person is currently having. Maybe, “let’s go get some coffee” or “can I sit here with you a while?” i think to say you will find someone new to someone might not connect with them. It drives me crazy to hear it. I feel somehow the point was missed when someone says that, as if you just can’t survive in your current state without someone or not acknowledging that maybe just being a friend is important to them. or liken it to a family pet you didn’t care much about.

I don’t think it is a good idea to embrace romance as a fix for a broken heart either. It may give you nice feelings but that isn’t necessarily what someone needs.

just talking…

Oh yes! I so agree with you! The fix for a broken heart is our Lord! Not a romance!!! It takes alot of time to heal from divorce, and more time to discern and pray about even the potential of starting a new romantic relationship. That being said, I do think that some people do mention that without meaning to harm. I think the original person that posted to her was just trying to make sure she knew that she possibly could eventually date one day with an annulment. I don’t think the poster meant to say hurry up and go do it.
On the other hand, our society does sort of look at relationships as disposible…and I am not talking about you folks here at CAF. The way I look at it is the time period after a divorce is precious time to try to get reacquainted with yourself and also a time period to build great friendships.

 

[vsedriver]

I have read that a person should wait 5 years for each year they were married before embarking on a new relationship. The thing with the annulment process is that it takes a long time. So does healing from a divorce.

Oh No!.. I’d have to wait 120 years.

 

[rainbow1]

Oh No!.. I’d have to wait 120 years.