Do all "monotheisms" worship the same God?

[fide]

I am sorry, but the bishop as you quote him gives a theologically ambiguous statement. Islam and Judaism are both rooted in the revelation of God to Abraham. They have more than a natural knowledge of God, they also know God through that revelation. There is a supernatural aspect to their faith and their love. And that makes their adoration of the one God like ours.

Islam and Judaism are in entirely separate categories.
Islam is based on the Koran - Just the history of it: " According to conventional Islamic belief, the Qurʾān was revealed by the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad in the West Arabian towns Mecca and Medina beginning in 610 and ending with Muhammad’s death in 632 CE. "

How could God, who is a Holy Trinity of Persons, “reveal” Himself and His will for men 600 years after Christ as a different “god” entirely:
NOT in His Trinitarian Truth,
NOT in the Incarnation of the Son,
NOT in His resurrection from the dead,
NOT in His Church empowered and guided into “all the Truth” through the Holy Spirit?

HOW can the god of the koran be anything else than a liar, and this “angel” Gabriel be anything other than one of the liar’s agents?

God cannot lie. Think about this. “Allah” - if he were God - had already revealed Himself VERY differently 600 years earlier. How could a true revelation later be so different - so radically different - be anything other than a confirmation of all that the early Church had been preaching and teaching for 600 years?

God revealed Himself to Paul very differently - how could a revelation to Muhammad be so different from what He revealed to Paul? Islam cannot be supernatural from God - it cannot be.

 

[Niblo]

‘He is God: there is no god other than Him. It is He who knows what is hidden as well as what is in the open, He is the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy. He is God: there is no god other than Him, the Sovereign, the Holy One, Source of Peace, Granter of Security, Guardian over all, the Almighty, the Restorer, the Truly Great; God is far above anything they consider to be His partner. He is God: the Creator, the Originator, the Shaper. The best names belong to Him. Everything in the heavens and earth glorifies Him: He is the Almighty, the Wise.’ (Qur’an - Al-Hashr: 22-24).

This is what Muslims believe.

 

[openmind77]

I think the deeper question here is, is it possible for a Hindu to worship the One True God while at the same time praying to other false gods? Or, was it possible for Greeks or Romans to worship the olympians but also the One True God but not recognize Him as such?

This is much more a philosophical question than a theological one but interesting nonetheless.

Actually, Hindus believe that all worship ultimately reaches the same One True God, no matter what you name the particular God you are worshipping.

BTW, here is a comparison between major religions that you may find useful: http://www.hinduism-christianity-islam.info/

 

[OneSheep]

What it reveals is that while we keep on insisting that Moslems worship the same God as we do, Moslems don’t agree that they do.

Hmm. Where do you get that information? Even if it were true for many or even most Muslims, are you weighing their opinions over the CCC?

HOW can the god of the koran be anything else than a liar, and this “angel” Gabriel be anything other than one of the liar’s agents?

You might want to read this article from the bishops.

 

[Dolphin]

If that’s true (in their view) then why worship random idol gods and not the One True God (or whomever they believe that to be)?

 

[openmind77]

If that’s true (in their view) then why worship random idol gods and not the One True God (or whomever they believe that to be)?

Because the ‘One True God’ is unknowable and beyond human comprehension. The individual Gods and Goddesses on the other hand are relatable and each has unique qualities that can be understood.

The point to realize is the Gods are like a hierarchy, they are separate individuals, but ultimately just part of the Universal ‘God’ . So I believe in those individual Gods/Goddesses just as much as the ‘One’ and worship to any of them reaches the overarching One.

 

[fide]

You might want to read this article from the bishops.

I may have posted some of this before, but in hopes of clarifying Bp. Schneider and my agreement with him, please read this:

To state, as the Council did in Lumen Gentium n. 16, that Muslims adore together with us the one God (“nobiscum Deum adorant”), is theologically a highly ambiguous affirmation. That we Catholics adore with the Muslims the one God is not true. We don’t adore with them. In the act of adoration, we always adore the Holy Trinity, we don’t simply adore “the one God” but the Holy Trinity consciously—Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Islam rejects the Holy Trinity. When the Muslims adore, they do not adore on the supernatural level of faith. So even our act of adoration is radically different. It is essentially different. Precisely because we turn to God and adore Him as children constituted in the ineffable dignity of divine filial adoption, and we do this with supernatural faith. However, the Muslims do not have supernatural faith. I repeat: they have a natural knowledge of God.

The Koran is not the revelation of God, but a kind of anti-revelation of God, because the Koran expressly denies the divine revelation of the Incarnation, of the eternal divinity of the Son of God, of the redemptive sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, and therefore denies the truth of God, the Holy Trinity. This ambiguous affirmation of the Second Vatican Council must be corrected. This affirmation is not infallible and was not meant by the Council to be such. In some way, we can accept the affirmation of Lumen Gentium, but then we must give a long explanation.

Of course, when a person sincerely adores God the Creator—as I assume the majority of simple Muslim people do—they adore God with a natural act of worship, based on the natural knowledge of God, the Creator. Every non-Christian, every non-baptized person, including a Muslim, can adore God on the level of the natural knowledge of the existence of God. They adore in a natural act of adoration the same God, whom we adore in a supernatural act and with supernatural faith in the Holy Trinity. But these are two essentially different acts of adoration: the one is an act of natural knowledge and the other is an act of supernatural faith. The acts of adoration, and the acts of knowing on which they are based, are substantially different, though the object is the same in that it is the same God. The affirmation of the Second Vatican Council should have been written more precisely, in order to avoid misunderstandings.

Schneider, Bishop Athanasius. Christus Vincit: Christ’s Triumph Over the Darkness of the Age (pp. 76-77). Angelico Press. Kindle Edition.

– see part II please–

 

[fide]

You might want to read this article from the bishops.

Again – part II –

For example, as we discussed, Lumen Gentium n. 16 says that we Catholics and the Muslims adore God together (“nobiscum Deum adorant”). We cannot say this in such a way. Of course, with lengthy explanations we might be able to affirm it in some way. However, such a plain and undifferentiated affirmation as the one contained in Lumen Gentium n. 16 is problematic. In the future, the Church could take this phrase and say: “It is wrong to say this,” adding the doctrinal reasons for why it is erroneous. The same could be done with some ambiguous or erroneous statements in other texts of the Council. It would be an indirect, polite rejection not of the entire Council but only of a few statements.

Schneider, Bishop Athanasius. Christus Vincit: Christ’s Triumph Over the Darkness of the Age (pp. 185-186). Angelico Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[Dovekin]

Why do you keep posting these assertions that the Church is wrong, makes erroneous statements when teaching, etc,?

You even admit that you have taken them out of context, and that we can not really understand what he is saying. What is the point?

What the bishop is saying is not what the Church teaches. He explicitly contradicts clear and precise statements from the Council and from the Popes.

 

[ReaderT]

As a Catholic, I believe what the Church teaches, not what Islam teaches.

Boy, you really hit the nail on the head there: Many apparently don’t care what Islam teaches, except that Islam believes in one god. They don’t care that this “god” hands out concubines to his male followers like candy to children. They don’t care that this “god” said Jesus is dead and rotting.
“But is he one god? Then that must be the god we worship!” No, emphatically no!

Just because a religion worships one God doesn’t mean it is the True God. Those who worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (rastafarians) in your view worship God.

This
But Dolphin, why do you think Islam is any different than the FSM? They’re both false religions.

This is what Muslims believe.

Keep reading, Nibbly. I’ve read the Quran from cover-to-cover: the Islamic deity says women are inferior to men, allows Muslims to marry up to four wives (and many today do), says Jesus is dead and rotting etc.
He isn’t our God. Different guy entirely.

 

[Crusader13]

No, all monotheisms do not worship the same God. That’s like saying Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons preach the same Jesus.

At its most basic level, that statement could be true, in so far as they are talking about the Jesus born of the Virgin, lived, died and was crucified.

Simply to acknowledge that basic fact, does not imply that our faiths are all the same and their faith is in some way salvific in accordance with their understanding of it.

 

[Maximian]

e for many or even most Muslims, are you weighing their opinions over the CCC?

Their opinions about their own religion? Sure.

 

[OneSheep]

Schneider, Bishop Athanasius

He has a right to his opinion, but he does not speak for the Church when he defies the catechism.

we don’t simply adore “the one God” but the Holy Trinity consciously—Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

To call the trinity more than “one God” is polytheism. We adore one God, the one God, and the three persons aspect is mystery, it is practically beyond words.

They adore in a natural act of adoration the same God, whom we adore in a supernatural act and with supernatural faith in the Holy Trinity.

It is only a supernatural faith if our faith transcends our nature. It is natural to be tribal, for example, but Jesus calls us to see those of different faith as people to be loved and accepted, as He did the Samaritans. It is natural to hate enemies and to despise those who persecute. Jesus calls us to love our enemies, which is also supernatural.

Sowing discord is not supernatural. It is a very natural activity from those who hold others in contempt. What has Bishop Schneider done to counteract such contempt? When you show me this, then we may see something supernatural.

No, all monotheisms do not worship the same God. That’s like saying Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons preach the same Jesus.

To your point, no one worships the same God, as everyone has a slightly different image. None of us know God completely, and experience guides our sight.

Their opinions about their own religion? Sure.

So you are saying that the opinions of an unknown number of Muslims is more important than CCC 841 and 842?

 

[kapp19]

As it so happens, we Catholics worship God, not a Catechism promulgated within living memory. The CCC is a teaching tool, not revelation. Benedict XVI talks about deficiencies in the text (in one of his book-length interviews - maybe Salt of the Earth?). The latest ecumenical council, while much more important, also has its issues (also noted by Benedict XVI - for instance, regarding Gaudium et Spes).

Reductive theology is where heresy comes from. Beware of the simple answers…

There are many ways to talk about “God” - insofar as various terms of thought agree, one could be said to be worshiping the same God. The analogy of the great thinker behind curtain is helpful precisely because of the ambiguity… Is it a man? Which? A statue? Of which? But it is always a great thinker behind the curtain. It seems it’s only when you start saying the great thinker is not there, or there is no curtain, or there is no great thinker behind the curtain but something completely different which serves a completely different function (a great cook, a great violinist, a great cave-diver) that it makes little to no sense to say unequivocally that it is a “different thing”.

 

[Crusader13]

None of us know God completely, and experience guides our sight.

That’s not true. We know God through His Revelation and through the covenants made with His people. Which has now been fulfilled in His Church, which is the Kingdom of God.

For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war, for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
2 Corinthians 10:3-6

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

None of us know God completely, and experience guides our sight.

That’s not true. We know God through His Revelation and through the covenants made with His people. Which has now been fulfilled in His Church, which is the Kingdom of God.

We know through our own vocabularies and our own experiences. Even when you use the word “Church”, every individual will have slight variations. The word “fulfilled” the same, the “Kingdom of God” the same. “knowledge of God” . same.

What is “knowledge”?

We know God in meeting God in prayerful relationship. We have no ability to characterize the relationship of even a fellow Christian, let alone a person of a different faith tradition.

 

[Crusader13]

What is “knowledge”?

We know God in meeting God in prayerful relationship. We have no ability to characterize the relationship of even a fellow Christian, let alone a person of a different faith tradition.

We’re not, or at least I’m not, talking about invalidating an individuals own personal relationship within their own religion.

By your logic God would have never commanded the Jews to cut ties with their idolatrous relationship with the pagan nations.

“Say to the people of Israel, I am the Lord your God. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you dwelt, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes. You shall do my ordinances and keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the Lord your God. You shall therefore keep my statutes and my ordinances, by doing which a man shall live: I am the Lord.
Leviticus 18:2-5

That sounds very familiar to many of Jesus’s own words.

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:24

How are the people of the world supposed to hear His words

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
Matthew 28:19-20

We when attempt to make disciples of all nations, it’s expected that we are going to face opposing beliefs and rejections of Jesus. We don’t retreat and attempt to find some sort of neutral common ground where we can fellowship together.

That’s not our command, our task is evangelize the whole world! Why???

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
John 3:16-17

 

[OneSheep]

We’re not, or at least I’m not, talking about invalidating an individuals own personal relationship within their own religion.

If you are saying that someone of another religion, for example, does not see God as loving, that might be somewhat invalidating, but I agree with the intent of not invalidating anyone’s personal relationship that they have with God. (Hopefully, that is what you are saying).

By your logic God would have never commanded the Jews to cut ties with their idolatrous relationship with the pagan nations.

We cannot second-guess what God told people of a different age. Those were different times.

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:24

When we follow Him, we can experience an eternal life that begins right now. This does not mean that those who don’t follow Him now are somehow excluded in the future.

Read CCC 841

We when attempt to make disciples of all nations, it’s expected that we are going to face opposing beliefs and rejections of Jesus. We don’t retreat and attempt to find some sort of neutral common ground where we can fellowship together.

We can find common ground in knowing that we believe in a God who deeply loves and cares for us; this is the God we can know through relationship.

That’s not our command, our task is evangelize the whole world! Why???

Our task is to help create the Kingdom, which begins through love and forgiveness. Loving and forgiving people is evangelization.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
John 3:16-17

Right, and just as God did not send the Son to condemn the world, we are not to condemn anyone either.

Have you read CCC 841 and 842?

The priest that taught our scripture study told us that even the atheist or person of another faith who enters heaven does so through Christ.

An alcoholic who turns from his ways, believes in Jesus, no longer perishes in his enslavement but begins an eternal life. Enslavement is a death, any overwhelming obsession is a death, but again, the death is not a condemnation from God.

 

[pnewton]

The saint whose name was assigned to now-Bishop Schneider when he entered religious life as a young man, St. Athanasius (296-373), bishop of Alexandria, was also considered “a more extreme bishop” by many in the Church in his day - the days of the very wide-spread confusion and error of Arianism.

Since you brought this up, I will note that Arianism continued long after the Council of Nicea condemned it as heresy. Yet those (the Arians) who did not agree with the decision of that Church Council , as some do not agree with the dogmatic constitutions of Vatican II, continued to teach contrary to the decision of that Church council.

I will agree there is a parallel.

 

[chercheur]

No, I wouldn’t say so. Not all monotheistic faiths’ “God” is the same sort of being (with respect to people, or other creation) as defined by their religion.

But I think the idea that if there is a monotheistic God, all or most religions recognize that God in some way makes sense.