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otjm
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Undoubtedly - but not because of Vatican 2. It will be because we will actually see how God sees.
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ReaderT
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Surely they can have some inkling of how things work. Justin Martyr said all religions have “seeds of the Word” - the Egyptians thought their king was a god and the son of a god - right idea but wrong person. But Islam’s deity does / says wildly different things than our God. They are distinct.
I actually don’t think He does. How could He? He’s the same God, after all.
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Dovekin
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Why would I read something with comments like:
There is an arrogance in setting himself up against the Church as the one who knows the truth. He could be right, but the quote is so much misdirection and pretention, it is not an appealing option.
Why do you think we should read his rejection of Church teaching? Do you think we should reject Church procedures, like the process of a Council?
Do you agree that the Church, after WW2, needed to express solidarity with the Jews? And with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and others?
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OneSheep
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I think there has been at least one post on this thread on the CCC teachings on this. You might want to start there.
Actually, there are as many different images of God as there are humans on the face of the earth. Even an atheist has an image of what it is he is rejecting.
From the CCC:
From the USCCB:
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...can-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm
Exerpt:
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Maximian
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What it reveals is that while we keep on insisting that Moslems worship the same God as we do, Moslems don’t agree that they do.
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pnewton
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As a Catholic, I believe what the Church teaches, not what Islam teaches.
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Maximian
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When a man says he doesn’t worship the same God as me, I believe him.
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fide
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The saint whose name was assigned to now-Bishop Schneider when he entered religious life as a young man, St. Athanasius (296-373), bishop of Alexandria, was also considered “a more extreme bishop” by many in the Church in his day - the days of the very wide-spread confusion and error of Arianism. That other Athanasius also found himself with few allies who saw very clearly the profound danger of that heresy of his day - but his faith, and perseverance in much opposition and institutional isolation, finally helped restore the Truth of the Faith to the Church.
I see two very, very important sources of contemporary commentary that are of profound importance to the Church in our time:
If you see an erosion taking place in the Church, only working to weaken her heart and soul, and her mission, I recommend both of these relevant commentaries. The Church will not be renewed without sacrifice - as the Blessed Mother counseled us through Fatima, and as history consistently shows.
In the days of that profound crisis in the Church - Arianism - St. Jerome wrote, “the whole world groaned and marveled to find itself Arian.” A majority may be powerful, but they are not always right. The crisis today may be different, but the forces at play are the same. St. Augustine had it exactly right: two opposing cities are being built: the City of God, and the city of man. This has been true from the beginning, and it continues.
I see two very, very important sources of contemporary commentary that are of profound importance to the Church in our time:
- A Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing - an EWTN film, available on their website. “By the brilliant team of Richard and Stephen Payne, the father-son filmmakers who head Arcadia Films, it explores the life and beliefs of one Saul Alinsky, often called the father of community organizing.”
and the book I’m strongly endorsing, - Christus Vincit: Christ’s Triumph Over the Darkness of the Age, by Bishop Athanasius Schneider and Diane Montagna. Amazon has it at a discounted price.
If you see an erosion taking place in the Church, only working to weaken her heart and soul, and her mission, I recommend both of these relevant commentaries. The Church will not be renewed without sacrifice - as the Blessed Mother counseled us through Fatima, and as history consistently shows.
In the days of that profound crisis in the Church - Arianism - St. Jerome wrote, “the whole world groaned and marveled to find itself Arian.” A majority may be powerful, but they are not always right. The crisis today may be different, but the forces at play are the same. St. Augustine had it exactly right: two opposing cities are being built: the City of God, and the city of man. This has been true from the beginning, and it continues.
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fide
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No matter where the spear is first felt, if it continues its trajectory, the whole body will feel it soon enough. And perhaps too late to be saved from the enemy who threw it. To the Church sent entrusted with the saving Truth of God, sent to teach and make disciples of that truth - teaching that Truth with clarity is owed. Truth deserves obedience that demands clarity: teachings with precision - not with ambiguity, not with vagueness, not with fuzzy obscurity that invites all to hear what they want to hear. Those are the politics of the world.
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fide
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Humility before God and His Truth can demand words and actions that appear to be, and are condemned as, arrogance by those challenged by the Truth. I’m glad you said, “He could be right”! Blame me and the CA limits on comment size, for my poor efforts to enclose into an acceptable-sized post, the actual statement of the Bishop. I had to leave much context out, to get the point in. In fact, his whole book IS the necessary context. Bumper-sticker size comments work for Facebook, but a Catholic Forum??? I really regret this new format.
As for his alleged “rejection of Church teaching” - this is a crucial point he insists on, and demonstrates: the words used in several important documents of the Council can be and have been and are being MISinterpreted to say things that are NOT consistent with what the Church has always taught and believed.
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Genesis315
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It depends on the one deity. Polytheists can also worship the true God, erring by worshiping other gods along side Him, as St. Thomas notes in his commentary on the Gospel of St. John (par. 2265).
If by God a person means that one self-actualized principle of all being, on which all other being depends, then the answer is yes, it is the same. This doesn’t mean they don’t ascribe various errors or ascribe a false “revelation” to Him. While acknowledging that God exists is a pre-condition for coming to a saving faith, simply acknowledging that God exists is not in and of itself a guarantee of salvation.
We say those without faith who acknowledge God (which the First Vatican Council defined as possible) to have a speculative knowledge of Him. Those of us who have received His revelation with faith–including the Trinity of Persons, which cannot be known otherwise–know Him with an affective knowledge. We worship Him in spirit and in truth, those without faith only at the natural level of religion whereas God is honored as Creator.
If by God a person means that one self-actualized principle of all being, on which all other being depends, then the answer is yes, it is the same. This doesn’t mean they don’t ascribe various errors or ascribe a false “revelation” to Him. While acknowledging that God exists is a pre-condition for coming to a saving faith, simply acknowledging that God exists is not in and of itself a guarantee of salvation.
We say those without faith who acknowledge God (which the First Vatican Council defined as possible) to have a speculative knowledge of Him. Those of us who have received His revelation with faith–including the Trinity of Persons, which cannot be known otherwise–know Him with an affective knowledge. We worship Him in spirit and in truth, those without faith only at the natural level of religion whereas God is honored as Creator.
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englands123
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Judaism , Christianity and Muslims all believe in ONE God , not two or three…
So if they all believe in JUST ONE God how can there be a different God.
That would make no sense at all ?
The difference is simple… They all view the Messiah differently.
But all agree Jesus to be a prophet.
So if they all believe in JUST ONE God how can there be a different God.
That would make no sense at all ?
The difference is simple… They all view the Messiah differently.
But all agree Jesus to be a prophet.
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Hume
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Easy answer.
Prior to the late 19th through 20th centuries, all these gods were obviously, demonstrably different.
After the the rise of more modern, pluralistic attitudes, these gods became the same to some. A great example is the Catholic attitude toward the Muslim Allah and how it has observably changed in the last century or two.
Prior to the late 19th through 20th centuries, all these gods were obviously, demonstrably different.
After the the rise of more modern, pluralistic attitudes, these gods became the same to some. A great example is the Catholic attitude toward the Muslim Allah and how it has observably changed in the last century or two.
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Dolphin
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They don’t all agree Jesus to be a prophet. Not all Jews recognize Jesus and Christians don’t view Jesus as a prophet (like Isaiah) but rather the Son of God. A huge difference.
Just because a religion worships one God doesn’t mean it is the True God. Those who worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (rastafarians) in your view worship God. Same for those who worship Buddha as god as opposed to a philosophical leader.
But I do agree Jews, Muslims, Christians pray to the same God just view God differently. My point is that your logic to suggest this seems a bit open ended. But the prophet reference is wrong.
Just because a religion worships one God doesn’t mean it is the True God. Those who worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster (rastafarians) in your view worship God. Same for those who worship Buddha as god as opposed to a philosophical leader.
But I do agree Jews, Muslims, Christians pray to the same God just view God differently. My point is that your logic to suggest this seems a bit open ended. But the prophet reference is wrong.
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Dolphin
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I think the deeper question here is, is it possible for a Hindu to worship the One True God while at the same time praying to other false gods? Or, was it possible for Greeks or Romans to worship the olympians but also the One True God but not recognize Him as such?
This is much more a philosophical question than a theological one but interesting nonetheless.
This is much more a philosophical question than a theological one but interesting nonetheless.
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Dovekin
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I am sorry, but the bishop as you quote him gives a theologically ambiguous statement. Islam and Judaism are both rooted in the revelation of God to Abraham. They have more than a natural knowledge of God, they also know God through that revelation. There is a supernatural aspect to their faith and their love. And that makes their adoration of the one God like ours.
Again, he may be right, but he is offering something that differs from what the Church teaches, and what the Church teaches has always been taught from the time of Justin Martyr “even if in practice there has not always been full correspondence with this high ideal…” JP2 HR 12
The Church teaching is clear and precise. I do not understand why I should read someone who does not think that is so.
Again, he may be right, but he is offering something that differs from what the Church teaches, and what the Church teaches has always been taught from the time of Justin Martyr “even if in practice there has not always been full correspondence with this high ideal…” JP2 HR 12
The Church teaching is clear and precise. I do not understand why I should read someone who does not think that is so.
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englands123
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I couldn’t have put it any better myself.
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englands123
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Jesus is in both Christian & Islam ( list of prophets )
But not in Judaism you are correct, my mistake.
Jesus is the messiah but he is in the list.
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EndTimes
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There’s nothing wrong at all w/Vat II
Fact is, it can bring some closer to seeing ‘things’ in manner in which God sees.
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