Do any CAF members who lean towards the Democrat party put any kind of pressure on the Party or on Democrat candidates to change their Pro-Choice (pro

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Maybe both parties are the problem. Im not going to delve into any rhetorical political theory, but I can tell you, every time someone lies to me, I know it (I Used to be a perfector of that art). They’re all lying to us, they’re all filled with greed, avarice, and hate. It’s all about the dollar bill and more often than not, that’s all it’s about. Don’t look to your government to save you or make your choices for you. Remember, it was MAN who wanted the institution of government, not God. Abandon the party system and follow Jesus.
 
How does the Party platform support abortion? I do not see it, except perhaps in opposing the Hyde amendment which could lead to providing financing for abortion.

Why do you support a government solution on this issue? Your preference for private initiative over government intervention is why I tried to help you understand the problems. If the government convicted Ruth of trying to obtain an abortion, and placed her in your home until her child moved out, would you think that is acceptable? What would it mean if abortion were illegal?

The moral evil of abortion is that women choose to kill their children. I utterly oppose women making that choice. I just do not see how legality would have much of an impact on that decision. As with alcohol or guns, outlawing abortion has never been effective, and likely has an opposite effect.
 
Dovekin said:
As with alcohol or guns, outlawing abortion has never been effective,
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No law is 100% effective, and I can understand that it can be difficult to get reliable statistics on outlawed acts.

But was the prohibition against abortion in Ireland- just recently lifted- really ineffective in reducing abortion? What was the Republic of Ireland’s abortion rate compared to Northern Ireland where it has been legal?
 
Dovekin said:
How does the Party platform support abortion? I do not see it, except perhaps in opposing the Hyde amendment
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The Democratic Party passed through laws during the Clinton Administration, radically putting restrictions on protests in front of Abortion Clinics.
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
Why do people on these threads insist on changing wording? “easy access” is NOT “access.” Please restrain yourself and don’t change words to suit your own argument.
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Then split the difference to “easier access,” as that is what is happening not, since abortion has not been made illegal.
Erikaspirit16 said:
Me too. But as I said, I am pro-choice.
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I am pro-choice too! Parents should have choice as to schooling for their children. States should have the the choice to make abortion illegal. Yay, choice! I really don’t think men should have free choice to commit rape because no one will have sex with them, so maybe I am not as pro-choice as others.

I would not be a good Democrat because I believe that one’s choices ends where the rights of another begins. Abortion rights is contrary to this principle. So I am not pro-choice for rape, or pro-choice for abortion.
 
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If you mean it is always wrong to choose abortion, we are in agreement. At most, the platform calls for abortion to be a legal choice. Are you confusing legality and morality? That is the only way I can understand your assertions about my position.

Otherwise, i just have to say you have not been paying attention.
 
From what I have heard, the Irish law was ineffective. People easily traveled to Northern Ireland or England and obtained abortions there.

Perhaps it deterred some women by making it more difficult, but it also apparently played into a lack of respect for the Church as scandalous behavior by priests was exposed.

Also you really do not help your position by pointing out that opponents of abortion have had to be restrained from excessive infringement on the rights of others.
 
Dovekin said:
Perhaps it deterred some women by making it more difficult, but it also apparently played into a lack of respect for the Church as scandalous behavior by priests was exposed.
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If it deterred a lot of people, wouldn’t that make it “effective” by definition?

BTW, I don’t think the real reason for restricting protests in front of Abortion Mills is the bad behavior of the protesters, but the fact that the protests were effective in discouraging medical doctors from getting involved in the abortion business by highlighting how disreputable it is.
 
Dovekin said:
Are you confusing legality and morality?
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I can’t speak for the other poster, but that’s been a consistent pattern on these abortion threads.

But as we SHOULD all know, if something is legal that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s moral; and if something is moral it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s legal. And vice versa.
 
There are plenty of studies out, and if you do some research, you can find surveys that seem to lead to the conclusion (since you don’t like the word, “prove,” which I did place in quotes, which in the U.S. means that I am using the word cautiously or with skepticism) that Americans believe that abortion should be illegal except in certain extreme cases.
 
Just laws are not the same as a “government solution.” Just laws are necessary to protect the lives and safety of human beings.

There is a vast difference between a law forbidding murder and a “government solution” of tax-payer supported welfare payments.

I believe, as the Catholic Church teaches (and my former Protestant denominations as well,) that the unborn child is a HUMAN BEING from the very time of conception.

Therefore I believe that any human-initiated abortion is the murder of a human being.

The law of the United States seeks to protect human beings by making acts like murder ILLEGAL.

No one has a “choice” to kill someone that is making their life difficult, unless the killing is done in self-defense. Even then, the person who was defending themselves will be grilled by law enforcement and expected to prove that they really were acting in self defense.

It all hinges on the determination of humanhood. If the embryo and fetus are human beings, then it’s not a question of making abortion illegal. Murder is already illegal and has been since the beginning of the United States. What needs to happen is that the laws against murder need to be extended to protect unborn human beings.

In many states, it’s already illegal to kill a fetus. There are cases where a murderer has been charged not only with the murder of a woman, but also with her unborn child, even when the child is not yet viable outside the wound.
 
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I don’t really understand your distinction between just laws and government solutions, so I don’t really know how to address that part of what you are saying.

What is the shape of your just law? Does it just identify abortion as murder, and leave it to be treated as other murders are treated? Does it provide sanctions appropriate to the situation of a pregnant woman? What punishment is appropriate, and who gets punished? Or is it just a statement that abortion is illegal, with no other consequences?
 
Peeps said:
There are plenty of studies out, and if you do some research, you can find surveys that seem to lead to the conclusion (since you don’t like the word, “prove,” which I did place in quotes, which in the U.S. means that I am using the word cautiously or with skepticism) that Americans believe that abortion should be illegal except in certain extreme cases.
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The study I quoted (Gallup) also divided abortion into “in all circumstances” and with some restrictions.

It’s not a question of “an abortion for any reason at any time before actual birth” vs. making it illegal. If you frame the question this way it’s disingenuous. If you look at the statistics, 91% of US abortions are in the 1st trimester, 9% in the second, and only 100 (yes, the number 100) in the 3rd.

So virtually no one is suggesting we should allow abortions in the 3rd trimester, and no one (I think we can ignore 100 out of 1.6 million) is getting them. And I would strongly suspect that most of the 2nd trimester abortions are EARLY in the 2nd trimester.

And, as I’m sure you know, you can skew any survey by wording the question in a certain way. The Gallup poll seemed to be pretty neutral and straightforward.

And I’m not sure what you mean by “extreme cases” – if you mean rape, incest, health of the mother, then most people would allow that. But if you are saying that most people in the US would oppose abortion except in those instances, please quote a reputable source (usually when I ask for sources someone quotes “East Podunk Right to Life” or something. I’m talking credible neutral sources).
 
It’s “Democratic” party, not “Democrat party.” The latter is tacky.
 
With the Democrats supporting things like abortion among other things, I don’t see how any Catholic can in good conscience be a member of that party.
 
Peeps said:
But I cannot comprehend how any Christian could ever support a Party that has “Pro-Choice” in its Party Platform.
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I am a registered Democrat. I am very pro-life and mostly anti everything the DNC stands for.
So why am I a Democrat?
In my city, we have been run by the Democrats for most of my life. The last mayoral election was the first time in years we had a somewhat viable Republican candidate. He still lost by a landslide.
There have been years when city leadership is elected in the Democratic primary because there are no other candidates, so if I want a choice in who my leaders are, I must be registered to vote in the primary.

A very sad state of affairs, and no real change in site. Hopefully NYS will follow California’s lead and try to seperate into 2 different states.
 
Peeps said:
But I cannot comprehend how any Christian could ever support a Party that has “Pro-Choice” in its Party Platform. However, if you are voting Democrat and actively working to get the Democrat party to change its Party Platform, that would make sense to me.
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I use to think exactly like you for 10 years, till I started see so much racism in the Republican party. As a Hispanic I could never support a party thats calls us less than humans. That is just the start of the many issues with it.

One of these days I’ll make a chart of which of the parties is the lesser evil. For me, Democrats are way the lesser of evils than Republicans.
 
CilladeRoma said:
In my city, we have been run by the Democrats for most of my life. The last mayoral election was the first time in years we had a somewhat viable Republican candidate. He still lost by a landslide.
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Here in Pittsburgh, the last Republican mayor left office in 1934. The elections are mostly uncontested
 
How can anything be more evil than condoning the killing of innocent human life and the taking of human life that is deemed “burdensome”.

I have seen more overt racism/discrimination from the Democrats than I have ever seen from teh Republicans. In fact, my own governor, a Democrat, told me and all others who support a pro-life, pro-marriage agenda that we should leave the state.
 
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