Do Catholic priests have the authority to forgive sins on earth?

[PRmerger]

Not as simple as consubstantiation.

Ok. So? Where does Scripture proclaim that simple is better than profound?

Absolutely not as many.

And where in the Scriptures does it state that “not as many” rules is better than “many” rules?

Chapter and verse, please!

So you agree, you have a long list of rules for this , and many other things.

Yes. We do have many liturgical norms that specify how God has commanded that we worship.

Incidentally, david, would you not agree that the Bible is a big, thick book, david?

Or are you attempting to say that the shortest book in the Bible (Titus?) is the most inspired?

Again ,you equate flesh union with eating and drinking the body and blood.

No, david. I do not equate flesh union with eating and drinking the body and blood.

I am equating the marital embrace, in which husband and wife become ONE
with the Eucharist, in which Jesus and I become ONE.

With Christ I do not nor do I with my spouse.

I am sorry to hear that.

 

[david_ruiz]

You are misinformed, david. The Catholic Church does not profess that "only catholics are one

."Again beschmerching with no added info .Do you look better now ? The Catholic Church professes to me on this site and others that she is the only church that is “One,Holy,and Apostolic”.This is generally referenced against protestantism , not Orthodoxy,and it’s divisions and recent beginnings .Are those other Catholics stating this misinformed also ?

"

The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart." Catechism of the Catholic Church

Again ,Catholic conscience is O.K.

 

[PRmerger]

."Again beschmerching with no added info .

You have shown in your posts that you were very poorly catechized in your Catholic faith, david.

Most likely not your fault. The Catholic Church did an abysmal job providing catechesis for its flock.

However, the point still stands that you do not know the faith that you left. The Catholic Church does not state, nor did it ever state, that “only Catholics are one.”

If you continue to persist in this ignorance then I am going to ask you to provide a document from the Magisterium (that is the teaching authority of the Church, david) that states that “only Catholics are one.”

The Catholic Church professes to me on this site and others that she is the only church that is “One,Holy,and Apostolic”.

That, david, is entirely different from saying “only Catholics are one.”

(Incidentally, the CC does not state that it is the ONLY church that is holy.)

This is generally referenced against protestantism , not Orthodoxy,and it’s divisions and recent beginnings .Are those other Catholics stating this misinformed also ?

If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches I suggest you go to the Catechism.

Again ,Catholic conscience is O.K.

No, a Catholic conscience that is conformed to the will of Christ is ok.

You really did not know what you left, did you? :sad_yes:

 

[joandarc2008]

So true. You are strong on your point of oaths and loyalty .Could you please tell me what I oathed at Baptism (infant) and at Confirmation ? Did well at Confirmation classes but honestly do not remember. Really am curious .Thanks.

First please do not get terminology confused - you made solemn promises - you have one vow to make in your lifetime - an example would be either marriage or religious order - an oath is just an other word for minor promise - your Confirmation promises were not merely oaths.

Since you do not remember your baptismal promises as an infant you may not think you are bound; however you also renewed them at Confirmation - again solemn promises -

1)You made a solemn promise through reception of the Sacrament to be a witness and disciple of the Church as well as to be a member of the Catholic community (ecclesistia) [priest, prophet, king]

1. You made a solemn promise to defend the Church [warrior of Christ]
2. in the renewal of the baptismal promises you would have made loyalty to Christ and the Church, all this is usually covered in the shortened profession faith known as the Apostle’s Creed - this includes such things as continuing a Sacramental life in the Church; i.e. - marrying within the Church by the Church laws, attending mass, following precepts

Basically when you made that profession faith - you made that solemn promise before a Bishop or representative - of free will and at an age of reason.

 

[PRmerger]

Catholics are forbidden to declare anyone’s condemnation to hell. That is for God and God alone.

Are you allowed to tell someone he’s going to hell in your church?

david, I am interested in your answer to the above question.

What does your pastor teach regarding this?

And that prompts some follow-up questions:
-if your pastor does not claim infallibility (and I’m guessing he does not), then how do you know that what he’s teaching is correct?
-what do you do if you disagree with his teaching?

(Incidentally, if he’s fallible, then, by definition, he’s going to be wrong at some point in his interpretation of the Bible. Have you discussed with your wife what you will do at this point? Will you leave and go find another church? If so, will this new pastor also be in error at some point? (Yes!) What will you do then?)

 

[david_ruiz]

**

Heb.5: 1

 

[david_ruiz]

Catholics are forbidden to declare anyone’s condemnation to hell. That is for God and God alone.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger;7292427:

Sorry ,but this sounds like false piety.

It’s only your ignorance of Catholic teaching speaking now. david.

First you say my sins are not forgiven , but that you can not say if I am condemned to hell

Firstly, I did not say your sins were not forgiven.
Without the sacrament which Jesus established, you must have perfect sorrow for your sins to be forgiven. And who knows–only you and God–the degree of your contrition for your sins? Certainly not I, nor any Catholic on this forum!

Secondly, as you know, Catholics believe in purgatory. So if you die with venial sins on your soul, unclean yet still saying Yes to Christ, then you may have a stopover there. We don’t know.

If it is for God alone , then remittance or retaining of sins is for God alone also.

Yes. That is Catholic teaching. And God has “deputized” the apostles and their successors to forgive sins.

Just like miracles are for God alone. Yet, you surely believe that some men have done some miracles, yes?

And have you ever referred to Moses’ books? Or Paul’s writings?

In your paradigm you should attribute them to God and God alone. You ought not call them Moses’ books. God wrote them, no?

Yes,conditionally.

Please explain. And what Bible verse says you can declare someone is going to hell, conditionally? Chapter and verse, please!

 

[Cat_Herder]

Your Heb 5 represents the abolished, imperfect O.T, as does the following:Heb 10:11 “And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices , which can never take away sins” ).

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:17-18[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PJM]

=david ruiz;7292515][Yes and no.I am one with my spouse in the design of physical contact ,not because we eat and drink our flesh . Jesus physically died and for me and I die and resurrect in Him by faith ,not because I literally eat and drink His body.

“Does this offend you ?” (you say that we must eat him , I say that he should suffer death). “What and if ye shall see the son of man ascend up where He was before ?”
(Your offended that I shall suffer death and not reign as king. I have not even told you I am leaving this place, going back to heaven ! Sorry, this King of yours is not for now.) “It is the spirit that quickeneth” (makes you see that the son of man must die and ascend). When Peter refused this the Lord said get behind me Satan). "The flesh profiteth nothing.The words I speak to are spirit and they are life ". (His words are life, not eating his flesh)

S Oh please, I wonder if you purposely miss my point. I believe in absolute truth and not in relativism, like yourself . The meaning you “missed” was that of our ability to be deceived by good religious activity and feelings following.

Not as simple as consubstantiation.

Again ,you equate flesh union with eating and drinking the body and blood. With Christ I do not nor do I with my spouse.

***Dear freinds in Christ; the Bible; and therefore God Himself profess the truth of His Real Presence by FIVE seprate authors:

Mt. 26:26-28, Mk. 14:22-24, Lk. 22: 19-21, Paul 1 Cor. 11: 23-29, and all of John chapter six ***53-55 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. ***For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed”. ***

HIS IS THE GLORIFIED AND RISEN BODY< BLOOD< SOUL AND DIVINITY OF CHRIST; NOT HIS CARDNAL body:thumbsup:

Jesus Himself institued ALL of the Seven Sacraments

The Sacrament of Confession is by GOD’S Will the maner He desires sins be Confesed in order to be forgiven. AD: 1jn. 1 8-10, 1 Jn. 516-17 an Jn. 20:19-23! Further is the perfection of ewish OT practice.

Lev.4: 20 "Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.; 26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. 35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, upon the offerings by fire to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven."

Christ founded ONLY One new church, One new faith and One New Covenant!

**Acts.20:28 **“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church SINGULAR] of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. “

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [Baptized] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [CONFIRMED AS A CATHOLIC -your decision!] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [HAD THE BIBLE PROPERLY, FULLY AND TRUTHFULLY EXPLAINED AT MASS] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. **But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.” **

Eph. 4: 4 -8“"There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God[/COLOR]] ***one faith, *** [Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

Friends this is the God you proclaim to bleive and follow sharing these truths!

READ: Jn.14: 16-17 and Jn. 17: 14-19… ONLY the catholic Chirch has Gos as whitness for it Faith and Moral TRUTH! ONLY THE CC.
[/quote]

 

[po18guy]

Am partly happy and sad for you .Part of me senses you are on the hokis-pokis treadmill.You must be back in the confessional next week , else if you die you will suffer in purgatory. Part of me is with you in that I was reminded today also of my forgiveness. Please tell me God will sue my church for patent infringement on proclaiming forgiveness of sins without Rome’s doctrines on it’s proper “channeling” . What you said is that my sins are still "officially’ with me. They are retained . I am going to hell. Yet your church recognizes that we (protestants) are citizens of His kingdom , though not in fullness, headed for heaven, though in little dingys and not on the “Queen Mary”. Which is it ? Am I going to hell ? If not, who forgave my sins in this protestant unauthorized church ?

Jesus pronounced the words of absolution to those whose sins he forgave. Have you ever heard those words? If not, then you assume you are forgiven, don’t you?

 

[pablope]

Am partly happy and sad for you .Part of me senses you are on the hokis-pokis treadmill.You must be back in the confessional next week , else if you die you will suffer in purgatory. Part of me is with you in that I was reminded today also of my forgiveness. Please tell me God will sue my church for patent infringement on proclaiming forgiveness of sins without Rome’s doctrines on it’s proper “channeling” . What you said is that my sins are still "officially’ with me. They are retained . I am going to hell. Yet your church recognizes that we (protestants) are citizens of His kingdom , though not in fullness, headed for heaven, though in little dingys and not on the “Queen Mary”. Which is it ? Am I going to hell ? If not, who forgave my sins in this protestant unauthorized church ?

David…i have lost track of this post…sorry…

I think in our previous post, you stated that sin separates us from God. And it is in the Bible that if you are unclean, you will not make it to heaven.

So, you asked: Am I going to hell? Only God knows for sure…for as per Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And if the will of the Father is for you to confess your sins according to how he wanted, which is again in the Bible, are you going to follow it or not?

I am sure your answer is yes, you want to follow the Father’s will. So, the question, how will you confess your sins?

Do you want to follow the method that was started only sometime in the 1600 or the method that the first Christians, being taught by the Apostles themselves, who understood what Christ actually meant, the sacrament of confession…that is still being practiced today…unbroken for 2000 years or so?

 

[david_ruiz]

Jesus pronounced the words of absolution to those whose sins he forgave. Have you ever heard those words? If not, then you assume you are forgiven, don’t you?

Again Jesus did not always make the pronouncement. When he did , it was because he saw a “condition” had been met . Do you mean to tell me that without the pronouncement (hokis-pokis) sins are retained, even though the condition has been met by the sinner ? Was the pronouncement necessary for forgiveness, or was it necessary for the sinner to hear and be comforted ? What is more important ,a repentant heart or the the spoken formula of absolution ? You make it sound like God will cast down a repentant and broken heart , if the sinner does not have someones make the pronouncement… If I assume then we all assume .It is by faith in His action(the Cross) and Word that we both attain forgiveness. You kill His written Word and the power thereof(by the placement of a mediator ,for the Mediator).Remember ,the first gentiles saved with Peter simply heard (equivalent to also reading today) the gospel and the Holy Spirit forgave their sins (justified them) and filled them with Himself (sanctified )-before any baptism of water etc. The pronouncement is in His Word. Why do you Judaize,make a work of it. What ,do you not have personal experiential faith with Christ and His forgiveness but thru a priest ? If you want a priestly pronouncement fine ,but only as a pronouncement as to what has already occurred ,a testimony of His grace ,but please do not say the pronouncement is effectual ,that is what makes the forgiveness happen.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Again Jesus did not always make the pronouncement. When he did , it was because he saw a “condition” had been met . Do you mean to tell me that without the pronouncement (hokis-pokis) sins are retained, even though the condition has been met by the sinner ?

REALITY CHECK: Your premise applies equally to the Sinner’s Prayer and all other “born again” experiences.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

If you want a priestly pronouncement fine ,but only as a pronouncement as to what has already occurred ,a testimony of His grace ,but please do not say the pronouncement is effectual ,that is what makes the forgiveness happen.

The problem here is that it doesn’t address the plain meaning of the words spoken to the Apostles in the upper room. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven; whose sins you retain are retained. In other words, whatever sins the Apostles forgive are forgiven. Conversely, whatever sins the Apostles retain (i.e. hold bound, do not forgive, etc.) are not forgiven. There is nothing in there about preaching the Gospel, and nothing about proclaiming what God had already done.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[david_ruiz]

No one is equating transubstantiation with sexual intimacy, david.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you saying the intimacy of marriage does not equate with the intimacy with Christ in the Eucharist ?

No! It DOES equate with the imtimacy of Christ on the Eucharist.

Is there a difference between the Eucharist and transubstantiation ?

Yes. They are not interchangeable, david.

All I know is you equated one flesh union (usually infers at least sexual union in marriage) with Eucharist one flesh union with Christ. You initially referred to it as “marital embrace”, “intimacy”,

Yes.

and further mentioned my problem with seeing this connection(Eucharist and “marital intimacy”) was perhaps due to viewing sex as dirty…

Yes. But It was conjecture of course.

 

[PRmerger]

Again,I do not have one flesh union with my wife by eating her flesh or drinking or mixing our blood.

Right. And by the quotes you made earlier I see that you see the parallel. It lies not with eating flesh and mixing blood of husband and wife but in the joining of One Flesh.

The two shall become ONE.

In the Eucharist and in the marital embrace–two become ONE.

How sublimely Scriptural this is, no?

I understand you believe Jesus said you must eat him ,

You didn’t read Jesus’ command in Scripture? He says it over and over and over.

I can have physical union with Jesus , but as other magisteriums suggest ,by dying and resurrecting with Him.

How is that? You have physical union with him in heaven?

Perhaps my union with Christ is indeed already one in which others are only in anticipation of.

I wouldn’t know, david. I do know one thing: unless you partake of the Eucharist, you have no means of physical intimacy with Our Lord.

You are like a husband and wife who chat on the phone and read letters to each other, but you have not enjoyed the physical, sublime, profound, intimate union of becoming One Flesh.

Your two are NOT one. :sad_yes:

 

[david_ruiz]

No! It DOES equate with the imtimacy of Christ on the Eucharist.

Yes. They are not interchangeable, david.

Yes.

Yes. But It was conjecture of course.

Howdy .you are fast .Thank -you for clarifying transubstantiation is what you objected to equating with sexual intimacy ,because Transubstantiation is not the same as Eucharist .Why did you not clarify that sooner ? Is eucharist a word for “thanksgiving for Christ” -what he did for us ,regardless of con or transubstantiation ?

 

[joandarc2008]

Howdy .you are fast .Thank -you for clarifying transubstantiation is what you objected to equating with sexual intimacy ,because Transubstantiation is not the same as Eucharist .Why did you not clarify that sooner ? Is eucharist a word for “thanksgiving for Christ” -what he did for us ,regardless of con or transubstantiation ?

Lets get this straight - Transubstantiation is the term for the change that is undergone during consecration of the bread and wine to the Holy Body and Precious Blood. So no, the two are not the same - one is a process and one is a decription of two Holy Sacramental Objects.