Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[NotWorthy]

The same is spoken of the Church as well.

For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

…when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.”

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’–and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked–

Is that the Church (as a whole)? Or to believers of a certain church?

 

[NotWorthy]

I agree. Now define “Church”.

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Amen!!

Now clarify why some people are expected to forgive in order to be forgiven, and other people are given the authority to forgive and remit sins.

 

[NotWorthy]

The parable is about timing, and you agree, thats great, now just leave it at that, I will. Ralph

Wow!!! If you interpret Scripture the same way that you interpret my words, then I can see where your problem is.

I said there is much more to the parable than your one point. Jesus’ teachings are so full of layers.

 

[NotWorthy]

No, He did not say that it was a symbol. He wanted this done in memory of Him, so it is a memorial. Like rememberance day, only that is done once a year. When He said I am the vine, did He say, “this is the symbol” of the vine?. Of course not, but it was a symbol, just like the bread and wine. Ralph

But the words he says are sacrificial terms. They are not merely rituals. Look up “poien” and “anamnesis”.

 

[BereanRuss]

Russ you aptly reminded us what Saint Paul said in His letter to one of the many united universal Apostolic churches…

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

Agreed…So I will remind everyone what God said to His One Apostolic Church, just after He breathed on them…

That is correct and every believer receives the Holy Ghost.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [Rom 8:9]

But there is no priestly body in the NT church.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

Now, as per the Holy Bible, should there be just one assembly of brothers and sisters in Christ, all united as one harmonious Body, which of course is our Lords Mystical Body, to which Jesus is the Head and Savior, or thousands of insular assemblies of brothers and sisters in Christ, all divided and discordantly inharmonious?

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

 

[BereanRuss]

But the words he says are sacrificial terms. They are not merely rituals. Look up “poien” and “anamnesis”.

Anyone willing to go back on subject? No one has ever answered how Jews, Muslims and others can be saved under the umbrella of the CC without taking communion in the CC without making Jesus a liar when He says, “Amen, amen I say to you…”

The problem here is the priesthood. If the CC priesthood is from God then Jesus’ words must be literal. But if the words of Jesus are literal then His words are not true for the CC also says that many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist but Jesus clearly says that NONE apart from the Eucharist can be saved.

But if the priesthood is from man and not from God then Jesus’ words are figurative and Jesus remains true!

In other words, if the CC priesthood is from God then Jesus is a liar but if the priesthood is the invention of man, then Jesus remains true to His word.

It is impossible for God to lie.

 

[jmcrae]

Anyone willing to go back on subject? No one has ever answered how Jews, Muslims and others can be saved under the umbrella of the CC without taking communion in the CC without making Jesus a liar when He says, “Amen, amen I say to you…”

By some miracle, God can save anyone, including any unbeliever or any heretic.

However, the normative means of salvation is to be a member of the Church that Christ established on the earth, which is the Catholic Church.

The problem here is the priesthood. If the CC priesthood is from God then Jesus’ words must be literal. But if the words of Jesus are literal then His words are not true for the CC also says that many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist but Jesus clearly says that NONE apart from the Eucharist can be saved.

Normatively. Yes. We all must be baptized, we all must be Confirmed with the Holy Spirit, and we all must receive Holy Communion. Which we can only do in the Catholic Church, which is the Church that Christ established for us, so that we could do this.

However, if you die before that can happen, or if for some other reason it is physically impossible, or if God makes an exception in your case, for reasons that only He can know. (I would not personally bet my immortal soul on the idea that God is going to make an exception in my case) then you can still be saved. For example if a baby is baptized and then dies, he is saved, even though he has never been Confirmed, nor received Holy Communion.

It is impossible for God to lie.

It is also a bad idea to pull God’s word out of context and try to force it to mean something that the original authors never thought of.

 

[BereanRuss]

Amen!!

Now clarify why some people are expected to forgive in order to be forgiven, and other people are given the authority to forgive and remit sins.

Where does it say that SOME people are expected to forgive?

Where dies it say that SOME are given the authority to forgive and remit sins?

 

[BereanRuss]

By some miracle, God can save anyone, including any unbeliever or any heretic.

However, the normative means of salvation is to be a member of the Church that Christ established on the earth, which is the Catholic Church.

Who gave you the authority to change the very words of the LORD? You cannot change “Amen, amen… “ to, “…the normative means”.

 

[mbgumby28]

1 Corinthians 10:16

“The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?”

Isn’t Paul basically saying here that, yes, the bread and wine are the Body and Blood of Christ?

 

[Church_Militant]

Where dies it say that SOME are given the authority to forgive and remit sins?

That would be specifically in John 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
**Catholic Confession
**

What has this to do with John 6:53?

 

[bradwill911]

But if the words of Jesus are literal then His words are not true for the CC also says that many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist but Jesus clearly says that NONE apart from the Eucharist can be saved.

This has been answered and you have ignored it. The CC doesn’t teach that “many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist…” Why ignore the answers that have already been given?

 

[guanophore]

You have to be kidding me. Something that important, I am sure that God would have made sure that everyone would be aware of this situation and how to do it. It is obviously a Roman catholic church teaching. How do you answer the other people, the “whosoever will may come”, who do not know this system. Scripture dosen’t say anything about this system. Ralph

You are absolutely right, God did make sure that everyone could be aware. He appointed His Apostles and authorized them. He founded a Church. The Church is not “Roman”, though, ralphy. Indeed, whosever will may come, and the Church is ready, willing, and able to teach them “all that Jesus commanded”, just as she has been doing for 2000 years.

It isnot a system, it is a way of life, and Scripture reflects this way of life 100%. In scripture, it is called The Way. It is the manner of living (sacred traditions) that Jesus taught to His Apostles, and they to their successors.

 

[guanophore]

No believer is a mediator for another believer but all believers have equal access to God through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is our One Mediator between God and Man. To His appointed persons, the ministry of reconciliation has been granted. We all have an responsibility and privilege to intercede for one another. There are those who can intercede more effectively than others. Catholics choose to go to those who ability to act in the person of Christ is authorized by Christ.

In other words your question is, if the CC is not the true and holy church and established by Jesus, how did the church produce a true and Holy Bible?

Yes.

Israel produced a true and Holy Bible (OT) but was condemned by Jesus on many accounts.

No. Jesus condemned unbelievers, who were born into Judaism, but did not practice their faith.

Israel rejected and crucified the Lord and yet they produced a Holy Testament.

No. God reserved a remnant of faithful Israel to Himself. It was the unbelievers who crucified the Lord. Just at it was the faithful remnant of Israel that produced and preserved the scripture.

Christian ministers to not mediate for believers. Every believer has the same access to God as the minister because God is not a respecter of persons. All mankind stands shoulder to shoulder at the foot of the cross.

This is a deficient understanding of spiritual authority and personal holiness. People that God has put in authority do have more ability to mediate. People who have more holiness have more effective prayers.

Yes, we are all equal at the foot of the cross, but to some God gives certain graces and privileges that everyone does not have. This is His perogative.

What does any of this have to do with the thread topic? Is this part of your way of trying to “prove” that priests cannot cathect the eucharist, just because you cannot?

No. The believer’s relationship to God is not through any man except the Man Christ Jesus. God has gifted pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints but all men have equal access to God and no man goes to God through another man other than the Man Christ Jesus.

Yes, God has gifted pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints. It is possible for everyone to have access to God, but in fact, not everyone does have equal access to God. Those whom God has appointed have more privileges. We can see this with Moses in many examples, as well as with Job, whose prayer God would accept, but not those of his friends.

Yes. There is no priesthood in these verses. There is no earthly priesthood in the NT.

You don’t perceive it that way, because you have been separated from the Apostolic teaching,a nd are reading them in a sort of vaccuum. However, they do speak of the priesthood. I agree with you, though, the NT priesthood is not “earthly” but emanates from Christ, who is in heaven.

Jesus was not speaking literally when He said, “…this is my body” but was referring to His own body that would soon be broken for the sin of the world.

You notice he did not have his “symbolic” body broken for the sin of the world.

If Jesus is establishing a new priesthood in these verses that is responsible for dispensing His flesh to the believers, why don’t you believe that none can be saved apart from the Eucharist just as Jesus taught, “…unless you eat of the flesh…” in John 6:53?

We do! This is instruction that was given to believers, for believers. It is not accessible to those who are outside the faith.

Do you take Jesus literally when he says, “…beware of the leaven of the scribes and the Pharisees”? Why don’t you believe Him?

We have different understandings of the meaning “literal”.

If Jesus is not speaking figuratively in these verse, then how can He say, “Whoever believes in me, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water…”, or, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst”

You may understand this better if you were to examing some of the eucharistic miracles, where believers have survived for months or years on nothing but the eucharist.

Jesus is not a lunatic. He does not walk outside one day and say, “he who believes in Me shall never thirst…” and the next day totally contradict himself by saying, “unless you eat of the wafer transubstantiated by the Catholic priest, you cannot have life in you.”

Since those are not His words, this is yet another spurious translation of Berean that you have pulled out of your hat,and blamed on Catholics.

It is saddening that you are not here to learn.

If Jesus was not speaking figuratively then He is contradicting Himself on many levels.

It seems like that to you, because you are separated from Apostolic teaching. WE are in agreement, though. There is no contradiction in Jesus’ words.

Then why don’t you believe it?

We don’t believe your understanding of it because it is not what we have received from the Apostles. What you are purporting amounts to “a different gospel”.

Yes, and literally eating it would be cannibalism.

You are right! This is why it is so important to understand according to the Spirit, and not the flesh. when it comes to Eucharist, the flesh is of no avail in understanding. It is a divine mystery that cannot be understood by carnal reasoning, as you appear to be trying to do. Jesus is giving us His resurrected body. It is alive, and eternal. Cannabilism is the consumption of dead human flesh, so such a comparison does not apply. Jesus gives us His real flesh and blood just as He gave them on the cross. He is God. His flesh and blood are now glorified.

 

[NotWorthy]

Where does it say that SOME people are expected to forgive?

Where dies it say that SOME are given the authority to forgive and remit sins?

When Jesus preaches to the crowds, he teaches on forgiveness, even giving the parable of the man who is forgiven an incredible large amount by the king. Then the man fails to forgive a much smaller debt from his servant. The king, upon finding this out, throws the first man into prison.

It’s pretty clear that here, as well as in the “Our Father”, that we are expected to forgive others sins. But the parable goes even further, telling us that if we don’t forgive others sins, then are sins are not forgiven.

However, in John 20, Jesus explicitly gives the Apostles the authority to forgive peoples sins, but also the authority to not forgive people’s sins.

This is a different preaching than He gave to the crowds. Evidently, there is an authority in the Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

BereanRuss, (and even Ralphy)

You may have answered this already, but this thread is going so fast…

How do you read John 6:53 in anyway BUT literal?

In ancient Israel, according to the Psalms, to “eat someone’s flesh”, in a figurative way, was to “loathe and revile” someone.

How can you possibly take John 6:53 figuratively, understanding this? Couldn’t this be the very reason the ancient Jews had so much trouble accepting this hard teaching.

 

[guanophore]

The same is spoken of the Church as well.

For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

Sorry, Berean, but it is not the “same”. this verse is not speaking of the Church, but of the savage wolves that will attempt to devour her. Indeed, there are some of the flock that have fallen away from the church founded by Christ. The Church, though, has His promise that He will be with her until the end of the age.

…when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

Well, how about it? Do you believe that you can still have life if you do not eat His Body, and drink His blood? Do you have any faith?

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.”

There are many "dead’ members of the Body. Notice what He says about these? Notice that He also says He will spew the lukewarm out of His mouth? If you read all these letters in Rev., in each you will find the faithful remnant that God has prepared and preserved for Himself.

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.

It is interesting you would use this verse as an example. Here we have someone like yourself, Diotrephes, who rejects the authority given to the Church by Christ. He, like you, spurns the Apostolic faith, and goes His own way.

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.  So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.  Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

Indeed, these verses make it clear that those pretending to be “Church” will be separated from those who are faithful followers of Christ. It is not possible for those who fall away to prevent Christ from preserving those He has sealed for Himself. No one can snatch them out of His hand.

Your premise is like saying, since Judas betrayed Christ, nothing Christ taught is true.

 

[guanophore]

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

All who confess Him are His church according to Paul.

What is so wrong with Paul’s definition that they had to change it later?

Nothing is “wrong”, it is just that this is not the only thing that Paul (or Jesus and the Apostles for that matter) had to say about what “church” or “salvation” is. You see, Catholics do not derive doctrine from single verses like this. We take all of scripture and Apostolic teaching into account when understanding doctrine. Paul also said that all those who were baptized were joined to Christ, and became members of His One Body, the Church. John says that those who love Him will keep His commandments.

 

[guanophore]

No, He did not say that it was a symbol. He wanted this done in memory of Him, so it is a memorial. Like rememberance day, only that is done once a year. When He said I am the vine, did He say, “this is the symbol” of the vine?. Of course not, but it was a symbol, just like the bread and wine. Ralph

You are on the right track, ralphy. It is a memorial, and a special kind of memorial. It is an amanesis, like the Passover. Remember, the during the memorial meal of the Passover, a real lamb is eaten. Just so, Jesus, the unblemished lamb of God who gives His life for the world, is eaten during this memorial meal.

 

[guanophore]

But there is no priestly body in the NT church.

Actually, it would be more accurate to say that the whole NT church is a priestly body.

It is our mission to participate in reconciling the world to Himself.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

This is precisely why the Mass is the highest form of worship. We offer Him, who is Truth itself, when we come to the table of plenty.