Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[jmcrae]

It is finished.

He was referring to the Passover Supper that He had been celebrating with His disciples. (Notice that they had omitted to kill and consume the Lamb.) On the Cross, He had become the Lamb of God, and thus, the Passover supper was completed.

 

[jmcrae]

You have to be kidding me. Something that important, I am sure that God would have made sure that everyone would be aware of this situation and how to do it. It is obviously a Roman catholic church teaching. How do you answer the other people, the “whosoever will may come”, who do not know this system. Scripture dosen’t say anything about this system. Ralph

Jesus Himself taught the Apostles how to say Mass, and they in turn passed it on to their successors, who passed it on to theirs, on down to the present day. There was no need to write it down because everyone learned it by hearing and watching. There is no one on earth who does not live at least an inconvenient (but not impossible) distance from where a Mass is being said today, or tomorrow, or this week some time.

 

[NotWorthy]

Jesus Himself taught the Apostles how to say Mass, and they in turn passed it on to their successors, who passed it on to theirs, on down to the present day. There was no need to write it down because everyone learned it by hearing and watching. There is no one on earth who does not live at least an inconvenient (but not impossible) distance from where a Mass is being said today, or tomorrow, or this week some time.

You think there’s a reason the priest at the Mass says, during the Consecration, “So that from east to west, a perfect offering may be made.…”.

Of course, any Bible enthusiast will recognize the words of Malachi 1:11 when they hear this - For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

 

[BereanRuss]

In the future, please ask fewer questions in the same post.

Just a few questions that have already been asked and ignored --to ALL non-Catholics…

If Jesus Christ is our one and only intercessor/mediator… why do we as priests, of the royal priesthood intercede and mediate, as we do here at CAF?

No believer is a mediator for another believer but all believers have equal access to God through Jesus Christ.

{the only difference is: catholics, as per the Holy Bible defer to Jesus’ One Holy Church for guidance and counsel, and protestants, ignoring what the Holy Bible says vis-a-vis private interpretation, defer to their One Holy Bible for guidance and counsel given to them by the One Holy C.C. which, as the bride of Christ, is being guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity, as per Sacred Scripture…}

In other words your question is, if the CC is not the true and holy church and established by Jesus, how did the church produce a true and Holy Bible?

Israel produced a true and Holy Bible (OT) but was condemned by Jesus on many accounts. Israel rejected and crucified the Lord and yet they produced a Holy Testament.

…why do pastors and ministers/teachers in the myriad protestant churches, all isolated from one another, intercede/mediate for their flock…

Christian ministers to not mediate for believers. Every believer has the same access to God as the minister because God is not a respecter of persons. All mankind stands shoulder to shoulder at the foot of the cross.

… why do the teachers of protestant churches act as intercessors/mediators by preaching the “word” from their pulpits? Is this not an act of mediation/intercession, which is to be done by Jesus alone, as per protestant belief?

No. The believer’s relationship to God is not through any man except the Man Christ Jesus. God has gifted pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints but all men have equal access to God and no man goes to God through another man other than the Man Christ Jesus.

I’ll ask again; if you were present at the last supper with the Apostles, would you believe Jesus when He did and said the following:

Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - “And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said ‘Take, eat; this is My body.’ And He took the cup, and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; for this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Jesus said: this is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.

Yes. There is no priesthood in these verses. There is no earthly priesthood in the NT.

What are Jesus’ chosen ministers, starting with His Apostles suppose to do in perpetuity??? Jesus does not say, this is a type of my body and blood; the Greek phrase is “Touto estin to soma mou.” This phraseology means “this is actually” or “this is really” my body and blood.

Jesus was not speaking literally when He said, “…this is my body” but was referring to His own body that would soon be broken for the sin of the world.

If Jesus is establishing a new priesthood in these verses that is responsible for dispensing His flesh to the believers, why don’t you believe that none can be saved apart from the Eucharist just as Jesus taught, “…unless you eat of the flesh…” in John 6:53?

1 Cor. 11:24 - the same translation is used by Paul - “touto mou estin to soma.” The statement is “this is really” my body and blood. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever declare something without making it so, does He?

Do you take Jesus literally when he says, “…beware of the leaven of the scribes and the Pharisees”? Why don’t you believe Him?

Jesus, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul, took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body…’

Jesus, according to John --said:
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

If Jesus is not speaking figuratively in these verse, then how can He say, “Whoever believes in me, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water…”, or, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst”

Jesus is not a lunatic. He does not walk outside one day and say, “he who believes in Me shall never thirst…” and the next day totally contradict himself by saying, “unless you eat of the wafer transubstantiated by the Catholic priest, you cannot have life in you.”

If Jesus was not speaking figuratively then He is contradicting Himself on many levels.

How can anyone say: there is no correlation between the last supper and John 6??? How can anyone say: Jesus was speaking in metaphor or symbolically, considering the fact that He didn’t say: I Am speaking in metaphor… I Am speaking symbolically???

Then why don’t you believe it?

Remember, to the grumblers, symbolically eating and drinking Jesus’ flesh and blood would have been just as ghastly and offensive to them, as opposed to: I am the door, I Am the vine, or I Am the light of the world, which is clearly metaphorical language that was not offensive to the grumblers sensibilities; that is the very reason why they didn’t walk away from this teaching!!! Are we in agreement???

Yes, and literally eating it would be cannibalism.

 

[NotWorthy]

In other words your question is, if the CC is not the true and holy church and established by Jesus, how did the church produce a true and Holy Bible?

Israel produced a true and Holy Bible (OT) but was condemned by Jesus on many accounts. Israel rejected and crucified the Lord and yet they produced a Holy Testament.

Huge difference. Massive difference. Moses told Israel that she would fail and turn away from God, and listed the Covenant Curses.

Jesus promised that this would never happen to His Church (“the Gates of Hell will not prevail…”, “I will be with you to the end of the age…”, etc.).

 

[joe370]

I am still waiting for an answer as to how the priest changes this bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, do you know. Or can you show me the authority that he uses to do so, and is this authority in scripture, or something out of the Roman catholic church. I am curious as to how he does it, maybe you are too. For such an important thing, it surley must be written somewhere Ralph

Ralph, are you kidding me? I am still waiting for you to answer any of my questions! If you think the priest changes the bread and wine into Jesus’ Body and Blood, then surly you are either being facetious or you are totally oblivious to what the Bible, the C.C. AND E.O.C. teach vis-a-vis the breaking of bread as a commemorative thanksgiving offering; which is it?

Many P.C.'s commemorate many feasts such as Christmas, Easter, Ash-Wednesday and many others in remembrance of Christ. What does the Bible say about these commemorations? Absolutely nothing…

Ralph, I think it’s interesting that protestants such as yourself reject Catholic Tradition yet embrace such Catholic Traditions as commemorating Jesus’ birth, Christmas, death, Easter, and Lent, and the dates ascribed to these events, even though Jesus as per the Bible, never asked His apostles to do this, and He never provided dates e.g. December 25th… all the while, knowing full well that Jesus, as per the Bible, asked His Apostles to do just ONE thing in remembrance of Him…Such hypocrisy…

God sent Christ to die and deliver us from our sins. Before His death, He commanded His disciples to partake of the supper in His remembrance. (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-19)

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body.’ And He took the cup, and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; for this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Note: All the four gospels give the same account, and in Luke 22:19, Jesus said, “This do in remembrance of me.” Also, the apostle Paul wrote to the church at Corinth concerning the Lord’s Supper, when he heard they were partaking of it improperly. (1 Corinthians 11:20-34.) In verse 23 it reads:

“For I have received from the Lord, that which I also delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus Christ the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He brake it and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body which was broken for you. This do in remembrance of Me.”

From this, we can see that Paul quoted what was already recorded in the gospels and is exactly what Christ told His disciples. In fact, apart from this supper, nothing else is said in the Bible to be done in Christ’s remembrance. Neither Christmas or Easter is mentioned anywhere in the Bible as a memorial of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the Old Testament, we can see that the Levite priests ate shew-bread every Saturday in the house of God. (Leviticus 24:8-9) And in the New Testament all Christians–being priests (1 Peter 2:9)–are to partake of the bread and the fruit of the vine which IS Christ’s body and blood, instead of the shew-bread, and on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Did Jesus authorize just any random person to do as He did, in remembrance…or just His chosen Apostles in perpetuity?

In Acts 20:5-7, we can see that Paul and some of the brethren went to Troas and stayed there for six days. They waited until the 7th day (first day of the week, which is Sunday) before they met and “brake” the bread.

The Bible makes it clear that the early Christians met on the first day of the week. (Acts 20:7; 1 Corithians 16:1-2) Also, when they met, all of them partook of the supper. (Acts 2:42) What about the members of some P.C.'s groups who refuse to partake of the supper? Should we not do as it is authorized by our Lord.

The Holy Bible given to you by the One Holy C.C. says, “Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 9) Please, friend, follow not the blind leaders who embrace certain catholic traditions while rejecting others–follow, rather, the doctrines of Christ via His chosen, empowered (Acts 1; Matthew 28:20)–ambassadors… (Matthew 7:25) There is no indication in the Bible that Christ Himself ever celebrated His birthday anywhere as he lived on earth for about 33 years, yet all churches commemorate Jesus’ Birthday, and ignore the ONE thing the Bible tells us to doin remembrance…

Ralph, do you believe God when He said: This is my Body…this is my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins, or do you believe God said: This is a symbol of my Body…this is a symbol of my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins?

Looking forward to your answers, considering the fact that I answered yours…

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, and literally eating it would be cannibalism.

Actually, it’s much worse than cannibalism, since we eat Him, glorified and alive - not dead, as a cannibal would.

 

[jmcrae]

In other words your question is, if the CC is not the true and holy church and established by Jesus, how did the church produce a true and Holy Bible?

Israel produced a true and Holy Bible (OT) but was condemned by Jesus on many accounts. Israel rejected and crucified the Lord and yet they produced a Holy Testament.

And Christ replaced the Old Covenant of Israel with the New Covenant of the Catholic Church.

Do you propose that there has been a third Covenant established, that replaces the New Covenant that God made with the Catholic Church through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

If so, by what signs and miracles did this third Covenant come about - and who is its Prophet or Messiah?

 

[BereanRuss]

Huge difference. Massive difference. Moses told Israel that she would fail and turn away from God, and listed the Covenant Curses.

Jesus promised that this would never happen to His Church (“the Gates of Hell will not prevail…”, “I will be with you to the end of the age…”, etc.).

The same is spoken of the Church as well.

For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

…when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.”

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’–and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked–

 

[BereanRuss]

Huge difference. Massive difference. Moses told Israel that she would fail and turn away from God, and listed the Covenant Curses.

Jesus promised that this would never happen to His Church (“the Gates of Hell will not prevail…”, “I will be with you to the end of the age…”, etc.).

I agree. Now define “Church”.

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[BereanRuss]

And Christ replaced the Old Covenant of Israel with the New Covenant of the Catholic Church.

Do you propose that there has been a third Covenant established, that replaces the New Covenant that God made with the Catholic Church through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

If so, by what signs and miracles did this third Covenant come about - and who is its Prophet or Messiah?

Try using scripture and maybe we can have a real conversation.

 

[jmcrae]

Try using scripture and maybe we can have a real conversation.

It seems like a simple enough question.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree. Now define “Church”.

The Council of Nicea in 325 AD defined the Church as “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.”

 

[ralphy]

I see. Did you come up with this infallible interpretation by yourself, or with the guidance of someone else?

BTW, I agree the parable is about timing in life, its never too late to go work in the fields. I just heartily disagree that this is the only thing the parable is about. Jesus taught on so many levels, that its rather naive to think there is only one teaching wrapped up in the jewels that are His parables.

The parable is about timing, and you agree, thats great, now just leave it at that, I will. Ralph

 

[BereanRuss]

The Council of Nicea in 325 AD defined the Church as “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.”

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

All who confess Him are His church according to Paul.

What is so wrong with Paul’s definition that they had to change it later?

 

[ralphy]

I am still waiting for an answer as to how the priest changes this bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, do you know. Or can you show me the authority that he uses to do so, and is this authority in scripture, or something out of the Roman catholic church. I am curious as to how he does it, maybe you are too. For such an important thing, it surley must be written somewhere Ralph

Ralph, are you kidding me? I am still waiting for you to answer any of my questions! If you think the priest changes the bread and wine into Jesus’ Body and Blood, then surly you are either being facetious or you are totally oblivious to what the Bible, the C.C. AND E.O.C. teach vis-a-vis the breaking of bread as a commemorative thanksgiving offering; which is it?

Many P.C.'s commemorate many feasts such as Christmas, Easter, Ash-Wednesday and many others in remembrance of Christ. What does the Bible say about these commemorations? Absolutely nothing…

Ralph, I think it’s interesting that protestants such as yourself reject Catholic Tradition yet embrace such Catholic Traditions as commemorating Jesus’ birth, Christmas, death, Easter, and Lent, and the dates ascribed to these events, even though Jesus as per the Bible, never asked His apostles to do this, and He never provided dates e.g. December 25th… all the while, knowing full well that Jesus, as per the Bible, asked His Apostles to do just ONE thing in remembrance of Him…Such hypocrisy…

God sent Christ to die and deliver us from our sins. Before His death, He commanded His disciples to partake of the supper in His remembrance. (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-19)

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, ‘Take, eat; this is My body.’ And He took the cup, and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; for this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Note: All the four gospels give the same account, and in Luke 22:19, Jesus said, “This do in remembrance of me.” Also, the apostle Paul wrote to the church at Corinth concerning the Lord’s Supper, when he heard they were partaking of it improperly. (1 Corinthians 11:20-34.) In verse 23 it reads:

“For I have received from the Lord, that which I also delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus Christ the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks, He brake it and said, 'Take, eat; this is My body which was broken for you. This do in remembrance of Me.”

From this, we can see that Paul quoted what was already recorded in the gospels and is exactly what Christ told His disciples. In fact, apart from this supper, nothing else is said in the Bible to be done in Christ’s remembrance. Neither Christmas or Easter is mentioned anywhere in the Bible as a memorial of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the Old Testament, we can see that the Levite priests ate shew-bread every Saturday in the house of God. (Leviticus 24:8-9) And in the New Testament all Christians–being priests (1 Peter 2:9)–are to partake of the bread and the fruit of the vine which IS Christ’s body and blood, instead of the shew-bread, and on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Did Jesus authorize just any random person to do as He did, in remembrance…or just His chosen Apostles in perpetuity?

In Acts 20:5-7, we can see that Paul and some of the brethren went to Troas and stayed there for six days. They waited until the 7th day (first day of the week, which is Sunday) before they met and “brake” the bread.

The Bible makes it clear that the early Christians met on the first day of the week. (Acts 20:7; 1 Corithians 16:1-2) Also, when they met, all of them partook of the supper. (Acts 2:42) What about the members of some P.C.'s groups who refuse to partake of the supper? Should we not do as it is authorized by our Lord.

The Holy Bible given to you by the One Holy C.C. says, “Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son.” (2 John 9) Please, friend, follow not the blind leaders who embrace certain catholic traditions while rejecting others–follow, rather, the doctrines of Christ via His chosen, empowered (Acts 1; Matthew 28:20)–ambassadors… (Matthew 7:25) There is no indication in the Bible that Christ Himself ever celebrated His birthday anywhere as he lived on earth for about 33 years, yet all churches commemorate Jesus’ Birthday, and ignore the ONE thing the Bible tells us to doin remembrance…

Ralph, do you believe God when He said: This is my Body…this is my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins, or do you believe God said: This is a symbol of my Body…this is a symbol of my blood which is shed for many for the remission of sins?

Looking forward to your answers, considering the fact that I answered yours…

No, He did not say that it was a symbol. He wanted this done in memory of Him, so it is a memorial. Like rememberance day, only that is done once a year. When He said I am the vine, did He say, “this is the symbol” of the vine?. Of course not, but it was a symbol, just like the bread and wine. Ralph

 

[joe370]

Russ you aptly reminded us what Saint Paul said in His letter to one of the many united universal Apostolic churches…

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Agreed…So I will remind everyone what God said to His One Apostolic Church, just after He breathed on them…

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Russ, If you lived in the age of the apostles would you have confessed your sins to Jesus’ chosen fallible, sinful ambassadors?

Cool, is that all I have to do, out of more than 1000 commands in the N.T. ALONE, and I know you don’t view links, but it copied/pasted it just in case you didn’t believe me, and it is a protestant link!!!

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14

Now define “Church”…

Definition of Ekklesia as per the Greek lexicon:

1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
   1. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
   2. the assembly of the Israelites
   3. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
   4. in a Christian sense
   1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
   2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
   3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
   4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
   5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

Now, as per the Holy Bible, should there be just one assembly of brothers and sisters in Christ, all united as one harmonious Body, which of course is our Lords Mystical Body, to which Jesus is the Head and Savior, or thousands of insular assemblies of brothers and sisters in Christ, all divided and discordantly inharmonious?

Any chance you could respond to some of my others posts, when you get the chance, via private messaging or the open forum?

Thanks Joe370…

 

[joe370]

Russ, forgot to send you the link…

74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:hnKDmK1KHYgJ:www.puritan-books.com/books/pdf/new_testament_commands.pdf+how+man+commands+in+the+new+testament&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

 

[jmcrae]

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Is there any Catholic who does not do this?

*Credo in unum deum … *

All who confess Him are His church according to Paul.

What is so wrong with the Paul’s definition that they had to change it later?

Heresies had crept into the Church to the point where people were following non-existent "Jesus"es - for example, the Arians were following a “Jesus” who was “the son of God” but not in any way divine, and the Gnostics were following a “Jesus” who had only had the appearance of a physical body, but never actually died on the Cross, and got married to Mary Magdalene, etc.

It became clear to the Church that merely proclaiming to believe in Jesus does not, in fact, make us Christian - that we also have to believe that which the Catholic Church teaches about Him - that is, we have to believe in the right Jesus, from among many "Jesus"es who are false and do not exist at all (and thus, have no power to save anyone at all).

 

[joe370]

No, He did not say that it was a symbol. He wanted this done in memory of Him, so it is a memorial. Like rememberance day, only that is done once a year. When He said I am the vine, did He say, “this is the symbol” of the vine? Ralph

Cool, so you do believe the bread and wine, upon consecration become the Body and Blood of Christ via the POWER of the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus’ Apostles believed, or are you still in opposition with Jesus’ Apostles, and the early church?

Ralph, when Jesus said: I am the vine, did His followers abandon Him, as they did in John 6?