Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

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In fact that is what happened. Some started early in the morning,some later and some later yet, yet they all received the same reward. This is refering to being saved, some are saved when they are young, some around middle age and yet some in their old age, however they all receive the same reward, a home in heaven. Ralph
Yes, I quite understand that, just as you presented it. You’re very good, Ralphy!!! 👍

What I was pondering is that Jesus used the term of “Work” :eek:. These guys didn’t just sit around and receive their pay. They had to work for it. And, no matter how little they deserved their full pay (as you correctly said, their heavenly reward!), they still had to do something to get that reward.

Kind of odd, wouldn’t you say?
 
The protestant church to which you belong and the catholic church to which I belong, both believe that Salvation is a free gift, thanks to Jesus Christ, Who is the One and only Savior of His established Church!!! Neither your church nor my church believe that we can earn Salvation; perhaps we can get back to John 6…?

Would you take a look at post 308 and share your thoughts?

Thanks Joe370…👍
Speaking of John6:53:
BereanRuss, (and even Ralphy)
You may have answered this already, but this thread is going so fast…
How do you read John 6:53 in anyway BUT literal?
In ancient Israel, according to the Psalms, to “eat someone’s flesh”, in a figurative way, was to “loathe and revile” someone.
How can you possibly take John 6:53 figuratively, understanding this? Couldn’t this be the very reason the ancient Jews had so much trouble accepting this hard teaching.
 
We do not need any one to tell us about the “Nature of the church”, we have the word of God to explain it, after all, He is the Author and it is His church. Ralph
Clearly you do, ralphy. You have a deficient understanding of the nature of the Church. The Scripture does not “explain” itself. That is why Jesus appointed teachers and pastors. He is the author, and He has chosen to work through those He ordained. Men, separated from that ordination, have found other ways to define “church” that are not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching.
We as 'Born Again" christians are God’s feet and mouth to spread the gospel of salvation. ralph
It is curious that you can understand this principle when applied to yourself, but cannot seem to when it is applied to the priest. 🤷
 
There has been a lot of talk about ‘works’ here. I get the distinct understanding that Protestants tend to view ‘work’ as something like ‘laboring’ and akin to 'striving, laboriously, to make it to heaven–and using that ‘labor’ as a dependence for salvation. That’s not what Catholic believe. When we have faith in Christ, who is Love…and the closer we draw to Him, the ‘works’ we do (loving others, forgiving others, feeding and clothing others, visiting the sick and those in prison) cannot be a work of our own (unless we are ONLY ‘performing it’ with self-serving will or without any love in our hearts). I think, no matter what, any ‘work’ that is done, when done in love, is not our own, because any true act of love, is God’s. We do NOT KNOW HOW to love, without Him. It is in God’s Incarnation that we discover the essence of the harmony with an ‘action of love’ and ‘faith in God’. They are inseperable.

That is why the Eucharist is something that cannot be separated from Christ’s Incarnation. He feeds us, with the ‘food of immortality’, which can only be His Flesh and His Blood, because He loves us and continues to be present, in a real (physical) manner and a real (spiritual) manner, as Christ, the Incarnate One. That is why the Sacraments are both physical and spiritual realities that give Grace. Because they are the expression of love, given to us, by our dear Lord, the Risen Christ!
 
Our works has NOTHING to do with salvation. If you got saved at 10 am in the morning and died at 11 am that same morning, you would go straight to heaven, not much time for works there. Ralph
Yes, however, to say that works have “nothing to do with salvation” indicates a deficient understanding of salvation. IT is those who live past that first hour that need to attend to this. 😃
 
My friend, if you had to work for a gift, then it is not a gift, you earned it, you paid for it. This seems pretty easy to understand. Ralph
You are misunderstanding the gospel, ralphy. What does this have to do with the thread topic?
 
“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer
remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments …” (Heb 10:26-27).
“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his
faith save him?” (Jas 2:14).
“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (Jas 2:17).
“But someone will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from
your works, and I by my works will show you my faith… Do you want to be shown, you
foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?” (Jas 2:18-20).
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas 2:24).

We have verses like these, that tell us that, faith, without works, is unthinkable.

We also have verses that express that faith is imperative to salvation.

Why must Protestants insist on polarizing the Bible and pitting such verses agains each other? Isn’t it clear that they CAN’T be contradicting one another? They don’t contradict one another, and it is wrong to be choosing one over another or one ‘more’ than another. Neither of these can be cut out, without doing damage. There is no reason to manipulate verses, to pit one against another, or to create complicated ‘theories’ which suggest that works just ‘follow’ being saved. That is so weak–when, if you simply ‘don’t set up false dichotomies’, they make sense. Protestants do a lot of ‘work’ to avoid some conclusions that they don’t want to face.

Simply put (in my own way)…Faith and Works are one action (not separate) of God’s love–rooting within us and (if we depend on God’s will and not our own) continually helping us grow closer to Him and to embracing his gift of eternal life, to be shared with Him in heaven.
 
“People say that the doctrine of Transubstantiation is difficult to believe…It is difficult, impossible to imagine, I grant — but how is it difficult to believe?..For myself, I cannot, indeed prove it, I cannot tell how it is; but I say, 'Why should it not be? What’s to hinder it? What do I know of substance or matter? Just as much as the greatest philosophers, and that is nothing at all.”
-Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman

tadaministries.blogspot.com/2009/03/why-do-catholics-believe-eucharist-is.html

Why do Catholics insist that Communion is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ? Do they honestly think that Jesus really comes down into bread and wine? After consecration it’s still bread and wine. If you break the bread, it crumbles, not bleeds. The wine is still wine if you put it under a microscope. How can it be Jesus if it’s bread and wine? These Catholics must be delusional.

As I read the above paragraph I imagine the pharisees and scribes sitting around saying “why do people believe this Jesus is the son of God? Do they honestly think God came down into a human? He’s just an ordinary man. If you cut him, he bleeds; I bet if we crucify him he’ll die. How can he be God if he’s human?” What an easy trap to fall into: assuming that we would know God if we saw him.

Do you accept that God does things we can’t understand? As a Christian, you can’t believe in the Incarnation without accepting that there is mystery (how can a man be God?). You can’t accept the Trinity without accepting mystery (how can one God be three, yet one, yet three…). You can’t accept the Eucharist without accepting that same mystery. If you accept the Incarnation and the Trinity, how can you object to the Real Presence using the logic of the opening paragraph?

Once you accept the Incarnation and the Trinity, most objections to the Real Presence melt away. How does bread and wine become God? Same way a human body did. Why doesn’t it change molecularly? Jesus’ body was no different than any other at a molecular level. Why would Jesus come back as bread and wine? He told us in no uncertain terms to eat him in John 6; yet cannibalism is against Moses’ law. Bread and wine are a logical choice (plus it was prefigured in the Old Testament, but let’s not get carried away).

Take a moment and seriously consider your objections to this teaching. Are you not allowing for mystery here just because it’s a “Catholic” teaching? Are you forcing this teaching to live up to criteria that you don’t hold the Trinity, Incarnation, or any other parts of our faith to? When we discuss this again, treat it with the same level of mystery as those teachings you take for granted. You may find it’s not so hard to believe after all.
 
Is the following syllogism, which ultimately leads to a literal interpretation of John 6 wrong:

God sent Jesus into this sinful world, therefore Jesus carried the same authority as His Father in Heaven. Having been sent by God, Jesus then sent the apostles into the world to teach all that Jesus commanded, (keeping in mind; there was no Holy Bible) --with the authoritative guidance of the Divine Holy Spirit, therefore the apostles were divinely inspired and authoritative. Having been sent by Jesus, Who had Himself been sent by God, the apostles then in turn, sent their chosen leaders/teachers into the world, to teach all that Jesus commanded, (still no codified/canonized Holy Bible) --who were also guided by the Infallible Holy Spirit, in light of their apostolic succession. (i.e. the Early Church Fathers) Therefore the Early Church Fathers who were all sinful, fallible men as were the apostles, were inspired and infallible in their teaching, just as the apostles of Jesus were.

This is what the C.C. and the E.O.C. calls, apostolic succession via the imposition of hands, and it is very biblical, and if someone leaves the church built by Jesus, as many did in the 16th century, and starts another teaching Body built by mere men, then naturally they forgo the necessary apostolic succession via the imposition of hands in Jesus’ One church built by Jesus, circa 33 AD… which is being guided by the Holy Spirit, and this was/is to be done in perpetuity, as per the Holy Bible; is that a reasonable assessment? This is the very reason why P.C.'s reject apostolic succession!!!

The early church fathers taught orally just as Jesus did, and just as His apostles did; not one person owned a bible; the Holy bible was not even codified/canonized until 393 AD! How in the world would sola scriptura via private interpretation have worked for the first 300 years of Christianity? If this written record, the New Testament, was/is to be the final yardstick against which everything was/is to be tested in order to ascertain what was/is true or false, right or wrong, then Christians belonging to Jesus’ One church, for the first 300 years…a time when she as the bride of Christ, was sporadically being persecuted by the Roman Empire, then Jesus’ established church had no Divine ballast to guide and counsel her vis-a-vis Salvation and emancipation, from the evil one!

Does any non-Catholic believe this was the case for the first 300 years of Christianity? Remember, not one person possessed a bible as we know it today, outside the C.C., FOR IT HAD YET TO BE CODIFIED/CANONIZED. Many other pseudo- scrolls disseminated by pseudo-teachers were making their way around the Mediterranean Basin, but only the C.C. possessed the Holy Bible at the turn of the first century, and she finally codified and canonized the Bible out of necessity! Apostolic succession was/is the confirmation, corroboration, and the credentials required to teach and preach infallibly, just as the apostles did, thanks to the Infallible Holy Spirit.

For the first 300 years Christians did as the Holy Bible decrees; they took unresolvable issues to Jesus’ one church as per Matthew 18:17.
If you lived in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th centuries, you would not have owned a bible… you would have simply taken the question: Was Jesus speaking literally or symbolically in John 6:53 to the C.C., and what did she believe/teach vis-a-vis John 6 in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th century? Yup…the literal interpretation. If the C.C. taught erroneously vis-a-vis the Eucharist for the first 300 years, then the Holy Spirit taught erroneously, for the C.C. derives all her power/authority from the Holy Spirit sent to Jesus’ One church on Pentecost!!!

Yes or no…?

If you insist that apostolic succession is unnecessary, consider this scenario: what if some of those heretical gnostic sects that parted ways with Jesus’ apostolic church in the second century…that taught things such as, Jesus was only a man and not God --had not been quashed; what if they still existed today and claimed that apostolic succession was unnecessary; what would you say to them? I bet you would defer to the authority of the Holy Bible even though the bible tells us to defer to Jesus’ One church, and that is exactly what they would do; they would cherry pick passages to support their beliefs, just as protestants do, just as I use to do, e.g. 2 Timothy 3:16, and eventually both these non-Catholic assemblies would part ways for good!

The only reason why we can trust that the Bible is holy and inerrant is because the teachers of the C.C. are empowered by the Holy Spirit to teach all that Jesus commanded through the imposition of hands as per the bible, in perpetuity, just as the apostles and their successors did, when it all started on Pentecost! Jesus prayed for unity and oneness, as did His apostles, and that is why the imposition of hands, as per the Holy Bible, is so important; apostolic succession is the only way Jesus’ One church can credibly trace her lineage all the way back to the foundation of Jesus’ One church, built by Jesus on Pentecost; every protestant church can do the same, however, they can only trace their lineage as far back as the former Catholics who spearhead the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. They left Jesus’ One church built on the apostles, and guided by the Holy Spirit, and changed the deposit of faith, deferring to a new man-made doctrine called sola scriptura via private interpretation, just as the many did in the second century, only they were truly apostate, and the P.C.'s established by men, are not; I think that is why there is so much division outside the C.C…
 
Then you believe this literally. You believe, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you”?

Is Jesus referring to the real presence of Himself in the Eucharist? Is there another souse to obtain Jesus’ flesh and blood other than within the RCC?
What is “souse”??

🙂
 
What is “souse”??

🙂
I think he might be referring to himself. 😉

Actually, he has kinda made it clear on the thread that he considers himself his own Source of revelation about God. If it does not appear that way to him when he reads scripture, it must not be true.
 
Next time someone gives you a gift, try to not accept it. It should be pretty clear that you can accept or refuse a gift. The next time you try giving someone a gift, don’t allow them to accept it. It’ll probably be fairly awkward, but I think you’ll understand that the act of accepting is part of the process.

In order to “get saved” did you have to DO anything or was salvation forced upon you? I would bet that you still had to accept the gift. You might have responded to an altar call or verbally accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior or something like this. YOU DID SOMETHING. That “something” that you did is a work.
If your wife gives you a cup of coffee and you accept it, is that work for you? I think you are trying very hard to get that word “work” inserted into those statements (and that is a lot of “work”), but in won’t fit in. Ralph
 
If your wife gives you a cup of coffee and you accept it, is that work for you? I think you are trying very hard to get that word “work” inserted into those statements (and that is a lot of “work”), but in won’t fit in. Ralph
As I prevously posted, this is how I see “accepting Christ into your heart” as a work.
I think by “accepting the gift”, our good friend is saying he is “putting on Christ”. When you are in Christ, you need to follow His teachings to the best of your ability. In other words, you need to act like a sheep, rather than a goat.
 
Yes, I quite understand that, just as you presented it. You’re very good, Ralphy!!! 👍

What I was pondering is that Jesus used the term of “Work” :eek:. These guys didn’t just sit around and receive their pay. They had to work for it. And, no matter how little they deserved their full pay (as you correctly said, their heavenly reward!), they still had to do something to get that reward.

Kind of odd, wouldn’t you say?
They were hired to work for their pay, as you are, if you are employed. We are not hired to work for our salvation, Christ has already paid for that, however, we are to do the work of God after we are saved because we are His embassadors and His representatives here on earth. Ralph
 
If your wife gives you a cup of coffee and you accept it, is that work for you? I think you are trying very hard to get that word “work” inserted into those statements (and that is a lot of “work”), but in won’t fit in. Ralph
Yes, I am free to accept or reject the cup of coffee. I would also have to drink the coffee for full acceptance which is an act. The coffee isn’t forced upon me against my free will. So while you think I am trying very hard to get the word work inserted here, I think you are trying even harder to remove it. Do you have to accept Christ’s gift of salvation or not? If the answer is yes, you believe in Faith + at least 1 work. If you don’t have to accept it, you reject it.

How do you define works? Is asking for God’s forgiveness a work or is that also “trying very hard to get that word “work” inserted…”?
 
They were hired to work for their pay, as you are, if you are employed. We are not hired to work for our salvation, Christ has already paid for that, however, we are to do the work of God after we are saved because we are His embassadors and His representatives here on earth. Ralph
So Christ was misleading us when He taught that their work went towards their pay.

Even you admit that their pay was their heavenly reward. And what did they get paid for? Their work.

The parable would have gone much differently if Christ had said,* the workers got paid even before they went into the fields and simply went to work out of love for their master*. That seems to be what you are trying to preach.

Instead, the workers didn’t get paid if they didn’t show up to work.
 
Protestants want to think that in John 6 when Jesus says, “My words are spirit…” that He means they are figurative or symbolic and not literal. But that is nonsense. From the passage it is clear that the Jews and Jesus’ own disciples understood Jesus literally. It is also clear that they understood Him to be speaking physically. Jesus knew this. This is why He said “My words are spirit…” Jesus was indeed speaking literally but not physically. He was speaking spiritually. Thus the contrast between the manna in the dessert which fed God’s people physically and the Eucharist which feeds God’s people spiritually. People who ate the manna all eventually died because it only fed their physical bodies but the people who eat the Eucharist will all live because it feeds their spiritual soul. Scripture says that the jews and some of His own disciples left Him and He watched them walk away. If they misunderstood Him thinking he was talking literally when He was speaking figuratively then Jesus owed them an explanation, at least to His own disciples. Jesus always explained His parables to them. But Jesus offers them no explanation other than His words were spiritual and not physical. He offers no explanation that He was speaking figuratively because He wasn’t. He was being very literal. The only explanation He gives was that His words were spiritual not physical. Had Jesus been speaking figuratively and did not explain that, at least His own disciples, then Jesus commits a sin by allowing people to abandoned their salvation because of their misunderstanding that Jesus was aware of but did not try to resolve. Peter’s response for the Apostles indicates they were not sure what Jesus meant but they were not going to leave Him. They probably understood better at the Last Supper and they certainly understood on Pentecost when they received the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
 
Yes, I am free to accept or reject the cup of coffee. I would also have to drink the coffee for full acceptance which is an act. The coffee isn’t forced upon me against my free will. So while you think I am trying very hard to get the word work inserted here, I think you are trying even harder to remove it. Do you have to accept Christ’s gift of salvation or not? If the answer is yes, you believe in Faith + at least 1 work. If you don’t have to accept it, you reject it.

How do you define works? Is asking for God’s forgiveness a work or is that also “trying very hard to get that word “work” inserted…”?
If you are accepting something thats “free”, I don’t consider it work to accept it. If I receive a check from the government every month, do you think that’s “work”.? Read Eph 2:89, (and I probably already asked you to do so befor). Do you see that there is NO “work” involved in receiving this gift. IT IS PAID FOR, and if you have to work for it , then you have earned it,and it is NOT agift. Ralph
 
If you are accepting something thats “free”, I don’t consider it work to accept it. If I receive a check from the government every month, do you think that’s “work”.? Read Eph 2:89, (and I probably already asked you to do so befor). Do you see that there is NO “work” involved in receiving this gift. IT IS PAID FOR, and if you have to work for it , then you have earned it,and it is NOT agift. Ralph
Originally Posted by NotWorthy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I think by “accepting the gift”, our good friend is saying he is “putting on Christ”. When you are in Christ, you need to follow His teachings to the best of your ability. In other words, you need to act like a sheep, rather than a goat.
 
So Christ was misleading us when He taught that their work went towards their pay.

Even you admit that their pay was their heavenly reward. And what did they get paid for? Their work.

The parable would have gone much differently if Christ had said,* the workers got paid even before they went into the fields and simply went to work out of love for their master*. That seems to be what you are trying to preach.

Instead, the workers didn’t get paid if they didn’t show up to work.
God was talking about people who came earlier in life, later in life, or very late in life to receive Him
as their Savior. They all were entitled to go to heaven. He was saying that it did not matter when you got saved, as long as you did. Don’t make it complicated, just accept it as it is. Ralph
 
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