Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[guanophore]

Anyone willing to go back on subject? No one has ever answered how Jews, Muslims and others can be saved under the umbrella of the CC without taking communion in the CC without making Jesus a liar when He says, “Amen, amen I say to you…”

Actually, the subject was, do we believe in Jn. 6:53. Everyone affirmed that we most certainly do believe it.

Everyone also denied your personal understanding of what the verse means.

As far as others being saved, we may not know the answer to that until it is revealed on the Last Day. There are many mysteries in our faith, and we do not claim to understand or know all the purposes and actions of God. All we know is what has been revealed to us. In this case, it has been revealed that those who do not know Christ can be saved. It has also been revealed that there is no salvation outside the Church. Somehow, therefore, God will save those who do not participate in the eucharist. Do you want to risk not being one?

The problem here is the priesthood.

It is not a problem for us, Berean. It is a problem for you because you have rejected the Apostolic faith.

If the CC priesthood is from God then Jesus’ words must be literal.

We beleive that Jesus is God, and that He meant what He said.

 But if the words of Jesus are literal then His words are not true for the CC also says that many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist but Jesus clearly says that NONE apart from the Eucharist can be saved.

No, Berean. Jesus was not addressing the whole world when He gave these instructions. He was addressing His Apostles. For some reason it really bothers you that He would give instructions to one person that don’t apply to others.

But if the priesthood is from man and not from God then Jesus’ words are figurative and Jesus remains true!

If this is how you would like to render it, this is certainly your perogative. You are under no compunction to recieve the faith of the Apostles.

In other words, if the CC priesthood is from God then Jesus is a liar but if the priesthood is the invention of man, then Jesus remains true to His word.

It is important for you to believe this so that you can continue to separate yourself from the Church tghat Jesus founded.

It is impossible for God to lie.

At least we are in agreement about something!

 

[joe370]

Originally Posted by joe370 View Post
Russ you aptly reminded us what Saint Paul said in His letter to one of the many united universal Apostolic churches…

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

Agreed…So I will remind everyone what God said to His One Apostolic Church, just after He breathed on them…

That is correct and every believer receives the Holy Ghost.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [Rom 8:9]

But there is no priestly body in the NT church.

 

[joe370]

oops, didn’t mean to send that…LOL…

Russ, would you confess your sins to any of the Apostles, if you lived circa 40 AD?

And

Do you consider yourself a priest?

 

[NotWorthy]

You are on the right track, ralphy. It is a memorial, and a special kind of memorial. It is an amanesis, like the Passover. Remember, the during the memorial meal of the Passover, a real lamb is eaten. Just so, Jesus, the unblemished lamb of God who gives His life for the world, is eaten during this memorial meal.

And what happened if the Jews did everything according to Moses’ instructions, except for eating the lamb…

Their first-borns son did not have any life in them! Wow, there has GOT to be some interesting Typology in there, SOMEWHERE, but I just can’t seem to find it.

 

[NotWorthy]

You are Right John, it is a parable and its about timing in life thats all, nothing else, not about working, they could have been in any situation working or not, you missed the parable if you miss that. Ralph

I just thought I’d take this time to show you a few more layers to the parable.
Theophylact writes:

The kingdom of heaven is Christ, Who is likened to a man inasmuch as Christ took on our form. He is the householder, as He is Master of the house, that is, of the Church. This Christ, then, went out from the bosom of the Father and hired laborers into the vineyard, namely, into the study of the Scriptures and into the doing of the commandments. Or, He hired each one to labor in the vineyard which is his own soul.

He hires one in the morning, that is, in his childhood; another, at the third hour, in his youth; others at the sixth and ninth hours, when they are twenty five or thirty years of age, or simply, in their manhood; and others at the eleventh hour, in their old age. For there are many who came to believe even as old men.

And what Theophylact writes next points to what several other fathers have said about this parable (St. Jerome, for example).

Or, in another manner as well, the day is this present age, for in it we labor as if for one day. The Lord, then, called at the first hour those living at the time of Enoch and Noah; at the third hour, those living at the time of Abraham; at the sixth hour, those living at the time of Moses; at the ninth hour, those living at the time of the prophets; at the eleventh hour, namely, at the close of the age, the Gentiles, who had been idle from every good work. No one had hired them because no prophet had been sent to the Gentiles.

Notice, in both analogies, the good Theophylact equates the workers in the field to doing something - not just believing - i.e, “studying Scripture”, “every good work”, “keeping the commandments”, etc.

Parables are like Ogres (who are like onions) - They have layers!!!

 

[BereanRuss]

That would be specifically in John 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Catholic Confession

What has this to do with John 6:53?

No where does this say “some”. It has nothing to do with John 6:53.

 

[BereanRuss]

But if the words of Jesus are literal then His words are not true for the CC also says that many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist but Jesus clearly says that NONE apart from the Eucharist can be saved.

This has been answered and you have ignored it. The CC doesn’t teach that “many Jews and Muslims, and others will be saved without the Eucharist…” Why ignore the answers that have already been given?

I am afraid that other Catholics do not agree with you. Like this quote from BradWill911:

Non-Catholics are imperfectly a part of the Church. You do not need to be a Catholic in practice to be a catholic in person. CCC 836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God…And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ (you), and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.

The CCC goes on to describe the Church’s relationship with non-Catholic Christians (see 838). It then describes our relationship with non-Christians: Jews 839, 840; Muslims 841; others 842-844. Finally, in 845, the Church states:

"To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world. According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

 

[BereanRuss]

No. Jesus condemned unbelievers, who were born into Judaism, but did not practice their faith…

No. God reserved a remnant of faithful Israel to Himself…

This is a deficient understanding of spiritual authority and personal holiness…

Yes, we are all equal at the foot of the cross, but to some God gives certain graces…

…this part of your way of trying to “prove” that priests cannot cathect the eucharist, just because you cannot…

Yes, God has gifted pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints…

You don’t perceive it that way, because you have been separated from the Apostolic teaching…

We do! This is instruction that was given to believers, for believers…

We have different understandings of the meaning “literal”…

You may understand this better if you were to examing some of the eucharistic miracles…

Since those are not His words, this is yet another spurious translation of Berean that you have pulled out of your hat…

It is saddening that you are not here to learn…

It seems like that to you, because you are separated from Apostolic teaching…

We don’t believe your understanding of it because it is not what we have received from the Apostles…

You are right! This is why it is so important to understand according to the Spirit, and not the flesh…

Never a scripture, never a verse.

 

[NotWorthy]

No where does this say “some”. It has nothing to do with John 6:53.

Well, the some could only be those who Jesus just breathed on, eh?

I mean, Jesus is giving a totally different teaching than he did when He gave the parable of the unforgiving servant. In that parable, you HAD to be forgiven, or the Father won’t forgive you. Here, Jesus is breathing on them, telling them that He is sending them, just as the Father has sent Him (remember, one of the reasons Jesus was sent was to Forgive Sins), then He gives them the authority to forgive and NOT to forgive.

He only gave it to the Apostles (the shepherds), not to the sheep of Israel.

 

[BereanRuss]

oops, didn’t mean to send that…LOL…

Russ, would you confess your sins to any of the Apostles, if you lived circa 40 AD?

And

Do you consider yourself a priest?

I might have mentioned specific sins as we walked the road together or fellowshipped to together but I not to receive absolution through the priest as another earthly mediator as you do.

I am not a priest in the sense that a catholic priest is a priest.

 

[BereanRuss]

Well, the some could only be those who Jesus just breathed on, eh?

True, which includes all believers who are born of the Spirit right?

 

[NotWorthy]

I might have mentioned specific sins as we walked the road together or fellowshipped to together but I not to receive absolution through the priest as another earthly mediator as you do.

Then why do you ignore the awesome authority that Jesus gave the Apostles?

I am not a priest in the sense that a catholic priest is a priest.

Yes, you are totally correct in that statement! You haven’t had the Apostollically passed-on hands as a Catholic Priest has. Awesome!

 

[inkaneer]

I am still waiting for an answer as to how the priest changes this bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, do you know. Or can you show me the authority that he uses to do so, and is this authority in scripture, or something out of the Roman catholic church. I am curious as to how he does it, maybe you are too. For such an important thing, it surley must be written somewhere Ralph

The authority is Luke 22:19. Jesus commands the Apostles to do this. As to how the priest does it is by the power of God ordained in him by the imposition of hands as authorized by Jesus to the Apostles [Luke 22:19] and passed down by them through the generations in an unbroken line of succession of bishops who empower priests [presbuteroi]. Protestants severed that line of authority and indeed no protestant denomination even claims any authority except, of course, the Bible. You will note that the two disciples on the road to Emaus did not recognize Jesus even when Jesus explained the scriptures to them. [Doesn’t speak well of sola scriptura, does it?] Their hearts were burning for the Lord but it was only when Jesus took the bread and said the blessing then disappeared that they recognized Him. They recognized Him in the Eucharist.

 

[ralphy]

BereanRuss, (and even Ralphy)

You may have answered this already, but this thread is going so fast…

How do you read John 6:53 in anyway BUT literal?

In ancient Israel, according to the Psalms, to “eat someone’s flesh”, in a figurative way, was to “loathe and revile” someone.

How can you possibly take John 6:53 figuratively, understanding this? Couldn’t this be the very reason the ancient Jews had so much trouble accepting this hard teaching.

I don’t believe in cannibalism. This is not Jesus’s body and blood, it is a symbol of His body and blood. Ralph

 

[NotWorthy]

I don’t believe in cannibalism. This is not Jesus’s body and blood, it is a symbol of His body and blood. Ralph

So, answer the question. How can they take Jesus figuratively, when “eating the flesh” symbolically means “revile and loathing”?

But, you know, your statement on cannibalism is quite ironic. Quite ironic, indeed!

First century pagans said the exact same thing about the 1st century Christians - that they were cannibals. What does that tell you about the Eucharistic belief of the Early Church?

But, to answer your claim: How can it be cannibalism? Cannibalism is eating the flesh of a dead person. How can you eat the dead Flesh of Christ when He is risen.

 

[ralphy]

So, answer the question. How can they take Jesus figuratively, when “eating the flesh” symbolically means “revile and loathing”?

But, you know, your statement on cannibalism is quite ironic. Quite ironic, indeed!

First century pagans said the exact same thing about the 1st century Christians - that they were cannibals. What does that tell you about the Eucharistic belief of the Early Church?

But, to answer your claim: How can it be cannibalism? Cannibalism is eating the flesh of a dead person. How can you eat the dead Flesh of Christ when He is risen.

Cannibalism is the eating of any person, dead or alive, as described in the dictionary. I say , how can you eat of the flesh and blood of Christ when He is not here, He is seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven, interceding for us. Ralph

 

[NotWorthy]

Cannibalism is the eating of any person, dead or alive, as described in the dictionary. I say , how can you eat of the flesh and blood of Christ when He is not here, He is seated on the right hand of the Father in heaven, interceding for us. Ralph

And yet, you still dodge the issue:
How can it be taken figuratively?

 

[ralphy]

And yet, you still dodge the issue:
How can it be taken figuratively?

As I said, Christ is not here, how can you eat Him if you cannot touch Him. It is NOT His body and blood. Ralph

 

[bradwill911]

I am afraid that other Catholics do not agree with you. Like this quote from BradWill911:

Non-Catholics are imperfectly a part of the Church. You do not need to be a Catholic in practice to be a catholic in person. CCC 836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God…And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ (you), and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.

The CCC goes on to describe the Church’s relationship with non-Catholic Christians (see 838). It then describes our relationship with non-Christians: Jews 839, 840; Muslims 841; others 842-844. Finally, in 845, the Church states:

"To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world. According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

You are not understanding what you are quoting. Nothing in that quote says that many Jews and Muslims will be saved through their Jewish or Muslim traditions. The Church doesn’t teach this, it doesn’t state it anywhere. Your misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine is the only place this teaching is found.

 

[mbgumby28]

As I said, Christ is not here, how can you eat Him if you cannot touch Him. It is NOT His body and blood. Ralph

Because through the power of the Holy Spirit the bread and wine transform into the Body and Blood of Christ. Not only does Jesus tell us repeatedly it’s his Body and Blood, he tells us to do it. It’s Scripture!