Do Catholics believe John 6:53?

[BereanRuss]

I think we’re now seeing what happens when the context of a verse is ignored…

Any decent theology must reconcile all that the Bible says on any particular subject. On the subject of salvation the Bible says:

…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Rom 10:9]

And it also says:

Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [John 6:53]

Please explain how you reconcile these verses. How is a person saved? Only when they regularly partake of communion in the CC or when they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart?

Do I loose my salvation even while I am still confessing the Lord Jesus because I failed to take communion in the CC?

Your theology does not reconcile these verses nor do you even care that it does not.

The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever.

 

[PRmerger]

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The verse does not say that a person’s sins are retained after receiving the Holy Spirit. Where do you get that?

And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”

If Jesus was willing to receive sinners apart from any priesthood when He walked in Jerusalem, what makes you think that an earthly priest is required now that Jesus is resurrected?

Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. [Heb 4:16]

If all believers have access to the throne of grace, why go to an earthly priest when we have access to the High Priest?

You still haven’t answered, Russ.

**How do you interpret John 20:23? **

Tell me, in your own words, what you would tell your, say, 12 yr old son if he said, “Dad, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins after one receives the Holy Spirit? Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins?”

Also, you gave me YOUR WORD that if I answered your questions, you would provide me with a list of Scriptural verses which declare what is essential truth and what can be disagreed upon among believers.

 

[BereanRuss]

That IS an interesting question and good discussion…

How did those who heard Paul know that He was preaching the truth when He was not approved by the religious leaders?

How did those who heard Jesus know that He was preaching the truth when the religious leaders were speaking against Him?

How did those in the OT know when a prophet was of God and when he was not of God. Many if not all of the prophets were rejected by the religious leaders.

Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

How do you know when you are hearing the truth and when you are hearing a lie? If you were counting of the religious leaders to tell you which prophets were of God, you would be guilty of killing the true prophets of God. If you listed to the Jews you would have missed the Gospel preached by Paul. If you listened to the religious leaders you would be guilty of crucifying the Lord.

God REQUIRES every man, EVERY woman to determine for themselves what is truth and what is a lie.

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Let God be true and EVERY man a liar.

 

[BereanRuss]

You still haven’t answered, Russ.

… what does it mean to retain someone’s sins after one receives the Holy Spirit? Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins?"

I told you. You are not listening. I said, “the verse does not say, ‘after one receives the Holy Spirit’, where do you get that?”

 

[cazayoux]

God REQUIRES every man, EVERY woman to determine for themselves what is truth and what is a lie.

Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Let God be true and EVERY man a liar.

God actually gave us something to help us know what is truth.
What did God give us that this the pillar and bulwark of the truth, that is the final arbiter for every man, EVERY woman to know what is truth?
The CHURCH!!!
JESUS GAVE US A CHURCH.

1 Tim 3:15
[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Jesus did NOT leave us here as individuals to each be our own authority as you suggest.
Jesus gave HIS authority to HIS church!!

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I told you. You are not listening. I said, “the verse does not say, ‘after one receives the Holy Spirit’, where do you get that?”

The APOSTLES received the Holy Spirit and then were told they have the power to RETAIN sins.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Any decent theology must reconcile all that the Bible says on any particular subject. On the subject of salvation the Bible says:

…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [Rom 10:9]

And it also says:

Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. [John 6:53]

Please explain how you reconcile these verses. How is a person saved? Only when they regularly partake of communion in the CC or when they confess with their mouth and believe in their heart?

Do I loose my salvation even while I am still confessing the Lord Jesus because I failed to take communion in the CC?

Your theology does not reconcile these verses nor do you even care that it does not.

Au contraire.
Our Theology doesn’t see these verses in an either/or manner, but both.
We read the WHOLE bible and think we must do ALL that it says we must DO.
You cannot pick and choose which ones you will and will not do.

I’ll list for you again what scripture says we must DO.
Do you think you need to do only one of these?

Have faith (Rom 3:28, John 3:16, 1 John 4:15)
forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:14-15)
care for one’s family (1 Tim 5:8)
feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned (Matt 25:31-46)
keep the Commandments (Matt 19:17 and 1 John 2:3-4)
love my brother (1 John 2:10)
deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23)
do the will of the Father (Matt 7:21)
eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man (John 6:51-58)
give a return for the talents the Master has given us (Matt 25:14-30)
be baptized (John 3:3-5, 1 Ptr 3:20-21)
we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope. (Heb 3:6)
confess our sins (1 John 1:9)

michel

 

[PRmerger]

The APOSTLES received the Holy Spirit and then were told they have the power to RETAIN sins.

michel

Exactly.

So, Russ…could you please tell me, in your own words, what you would tell your, say, 12 yr old son if he said, “Dad, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins after one receives the Holy Spirit? Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins?”

Also, you gave me YOUR WORD that if I answered your questions, you would provide me with a list of Scriptural verses which declare what is essential truth and what can be disagreed upon among believers. Remember, I am not asking for a list of verses that YOU think are essential truths. I’d like a list of verses which tell you (and therefore, me) THIS is essential to believe, and THIS is ok to disagree on.

---

 

[twb1621]

Seeing that I am lost and you are not, perhaps you can answer a question I have.

Do you think that those who heard John the Baptist should have confessed their sins and been baptized in the Jordan or do you think that they should have ignored him? How did those who heard him preach decide that He was of the truth without the teaching of the church or the approval of the religious leaders?

Maybe you will realize Jesus plan was for His Church to succeed until His return and the power and authority He passed to them, they in turn passed as Christianity grew and time continued. That of course includes all the authority. There are more verses that support this but I think you could find them if you wish.

“But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mat. Ch 16. 15-19)

“…. Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.” (Mat. Ch 24. 11-13)

“…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them. So be vigilant and remember that for three years, night and day, I unceasingly admonished each of you with tears. And now I commend you to God and to that gracious word of his that can build you up and give you the inheritance among all who are consecrated. I have never wanted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You know well that these very hands have served my needs and my companions. In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’" (Acts Ch 20. 28-35)

21 After they had proclaimed the good news to that city and made a considerable number of disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch. 22 They strengthened the spirits of the disciples and exhorted them to persevere in the faith, saying, “It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.” 23 They appointed presbyters 5 for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, commended them to the Lord in whom they had put their faith. (Acts Ch 14. 21-23)

1 1 After this the Lord appointed seventy (-two) 2 others whom he sent ahead of him in pairs to every town and place he intended to visit. 2 He said to them, "The harvest is abundant but the laborers are few; so ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for his harvest. 3 Go on your way; behold, I am sending you like lambs among wolves. 4 3 Carry no money bag, no sack, no sandals; and greet no one along the way. 5 Into whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this household.’ 4 6 If a peaceful person 5 lives there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you. (Luke Ch 10. 01-06)

Continued

 

[twb1621]

2 2 So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. 3 3 Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this ask, 4 whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” 5 The proposal was acceptable to the whole community, so they chose Stephen, a man filled with faith and the holy Spirit, also Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicholas of Antioch, a convert to Judaism. 6 They presented these men to the apostles who prayed and laid hands on them. 4 7 The word of God continued to spread, and the number of the disciples in Jerusalem increased greatly; even a large group of priests were becoming obedient to the faith. (Acts Ch 6. 01-06)
t

 

[jlhargus]

The problem here is the difination of the “church”. The church is not a human organization. It is a group of people selected by God and filled with His spirit. My sheep hear my voice…

JL: I agree the problem is the difination of the church. I have yet to see the protestant invisible church defended with scripture. How do we HEAR the voice of an invisible phantom church, that no one can find in history or in the present? We HEAR the Church by hearing those whom Christ SENT, LK 10:16 HE THAT HEARETH YOU HEARETH ME; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. MT 18:17-18 17: And if he shall neglect to hear them, TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH LET HIM BE unto thee AS AN HEATHEN man and a publican. 18: VERYILY I SAY unto you, WHATSOEVER YE SHALL BIND ON EARTH shall be bound in heaven: and WHATSOEVER ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

God is not dependant upon man in any way. He is not dependant upon an infallible church in order for His word to be infallible. To think that God is dependant upon the faithfulness of man is to make the same mistake that the Jews made at the time of Christ. God does not promise that error will not enter His church. In fact, He predicts that it will:

JL: No God is not dependant on man nor on the Church, but he choose to form and work through the body of Christ, the Church, which is Christ present, visible and acting on earth, using human beings. God wills his people to be ONE, working as ONE becoming co-redeemers with him, by works, prayer, witnessing etc… [1 COR 3:9 For WE ARE LABOURERS TOGETHER WITH GOD ye are God’s husbandry YE ARE GOD’S BUILDING 3 JN 1:8 We therefore ought to receive such that we might be FELLOWHELPERS TO THE TRUTH. [Jms5:20 Let him know, that HE WHICH CONVERTETH THE SINNER from the error of his way SHALL SAVE A SOUL from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 1Tm4:16 TAKE HEED TO YOURSELF and TO THE DOCTRINE. CONTINUE IN THEM, for in DOING THIS you WILL SAVE both YOURSELF AND those WHO HEAR YOU.] Our Lord choose and SENT men to teach all Christ commanded, TO BRING SALVATION to the whole world. At Pentecost HE endue them with the power of the HOLY SPIRIT, who is the soul of the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Also, you gave me YOUR WORD that if I answered your questions, you would provide me with a list of Scriptural verses which declare what is essential truth and what can be disagreed upon among believers. Remember, I am not asking for a list of verses that YOU think are essential truths. I’d like a list of verses which tell you (and therefore, me) THIS is essential to believe, and THIS is ok to disagree on.

---

Ok, Russ, I’m going to come clean. I really don’t expect you to be able to keep your word on this. I know what I was asking was a trick question, because, as your silence testifies, there is no such list in the Bible of what is essential and what is not.

Thus, this puts you in a very difficult situation as a Christian who’s not a Catholic. when you claim: "differences in understanding of the word of God pose no problem unless those interpretations deny basic truths like the person and work of Christ or salvation by grace through faith, etc. " you are being arbitrary. You may indeed be risking your salvation, Russ, because your “difference in understanding the word of God” may be an essential, basic truth…yet how would you know? The Scriptures don’t tell you, do they?

But, the Holy Catholic Church does say what’s essential and what’s ok to have a diversity of opinion on.

 

[NotWorthy]

Exactly.

So, Russ…could you please tell me, in your own words, what you would tell your, say, 12 yr old son if he said, “Dad, what does it mean to retain someone’s sins after one receives the Holy Spirit? Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins?”

I’d take this a step further.
“Why was Jesus telling his apostles to forgive men’s sins and retain men’s sins, when He also told the people that they must forgive other’s sins if they wish their Heavenly Father to forgive their sins?”

That’s the whole crux of the matter. There are two teachings on Forgiveness that are totally different. To Catholics, this is not a problem, for we understood the priestly authority. To other Christian faiths, however…

 

[jlhargus]

Neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem… but those who worship God must worship Him in Spirit and in truth. The “Church” is a SPIRITUAL group, not a physical organization.

The Church is BOTH visible, in her SENT ministers and people, and invisible. As a Catholic convert from a non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church, this is my Scriptural understanding of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH. For emphases I added the CAPITAL WORDS. Maybe you can give scripture for your invisible church? Sorry about the length, at one time it was one paragraph. I never stop learning.

Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT? [Can an invisiable church SEND anyone?] Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES; JN 17:18 As you have SENT me into the world I also SENT them into the world 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE CONSECRATED IN TRUTH. 20 I do not pray for these alone but for those who will BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD 21 THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME.] Christ is praying for one specific visible sent group the Apostles Fellowship, whom he consecrated in truth. Hearing their word and being one in fellowship, with THEM, the world may believe the Father sent him, can an invisable church do that? I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world. [Mt 28:16 THE ELEVEN disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM, ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.] Can an invisiable church, do that? The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught, they were to go to all nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them till the end of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end, but their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop till the end.

[LK 22:29 I appoint you A KINGDOM as my Father has appointed me 30 That you may eat and drink AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel 31 SIMON Satan has desired to have you 32 I have prayed for you that YOUR FAITH FAIL NOT when you are converted, STRENGTHEN YOUR BRETHREN.] When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Can an invisiable church do that? Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter. JN 21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three times, “do you love me more than these” THESE, would be the other apostles. After being asked three times and replying three times, “yes”. Christ said to Peter, the first time, “feed MY lambs”, the second time, “feed MY sheep”, the third time, “feed MY sheep”. Peter is to feed ALL the sheep in Christ’s flock, not some, but ALL the sheep Christ has purchased with his blood. Can an invisiable church feed all Christ’s flock?

[ACTS 2:41 they that RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED 42 THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE FELLOWSHIP in BREAKING BREAD and in PRAYERS. 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST. 10 I appeal to you BRETHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment.] Can an invisiable church be a fellowship have the same doctrine, be united? One fellowship no matter where it is located in the world. [Lk 24:48 you are witnesses of these things 49 I SEND the promise of my Father upon you WAIT in Jerusalem TILL YOU ARE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Can an invisiable church wait in Jerusalem? Jn 16:13 When THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL the TRUTH Jn 14:26 the Holy Spirit HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL things and BRING ALL things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.] Christ is speaking to the Apostolic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through successors, till the end of the world. CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

[2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 GOD HAS GIVEN US the SPIRIT OF POWER. Titus 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU. ACTS 14:23 when they had ORDAINED elders IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. ACTS 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT has MADE you OVERSEERS TO FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 Tin 4:13 Till I come attend to READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH THE LAYING ON OF the HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED to yourself TO THE DOCTRINE continue in them for in doing this you shalt both SAVE yourself and THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.] I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not ordained and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. [Except false teachers, who may even have been ordained by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They go out on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT Jer23:21 I DID NOT SEND these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied [Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ Mt28:16-20 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME

The Catholic Church continues steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, those to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14. [Eph3:7 Whereof I was made A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE GIFT of the grace of God given unto me BY the effectual working OF HIS POWER. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE what is the fellowship of THE MYSTERY, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent THAT NOW unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God,] CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

Two of the greatest brothers, Peter and Paul, went from Palestine to Rome, where both were martyred. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna. So in the restored Kingdom of David, Peter will be Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the new Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitation for God of living stones.

The Jerusalem Council sent a letter to Antioch, with it decision settling a doctrinal dispute, which said, [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] using their authority to bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christian knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY in Antioch, Acts15.

Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN. [Even though sent by Christ, Paul who had the gift of revelation, realized he could possibly not be preaching the same gospel as the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul was inspired by revelation to check his teaching with the teaching of the Apostles’ Fellowship. Those SENT by Christ, to teach ALL NATIONS and ALL Christ commanded till the end of the age. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL TRUTH. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without the lest disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and CONTINUED steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and THE SAME JUDGMENT. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

[Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him SAYING MASTER we saw one casting out devils in thy name and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US and WE FORBAD HIM because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US 39 But JESUS SAID FORBID HIM NOT for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name that can lightly speak evil of me 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in those separated denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to that one fellowship in a spiritual way. Therefore we do not listen to men, the spirit of error, to be taken in by false teachers and every wind of doctine men can devise through sola scriptura, the tridition of men made a doctrine of God around 1521 AD.

 

[fbl9]

I am showing that the RCC’s theology is not reconcilable with the Bible. It is not bait and switch. I am reasoning the scriptures.

Jesus never warned against drinking his blood and eating His Flesh unworthily however Paul did warn against this:

Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. [1 Cor 11:27, 28]

Notice first that Paul twice calls communion the, “bread and cup”. He does not call it the “flesh” or the “body” and the “cup”. He clearly indicates that as we take communion, it is still “bread”.

So, we must examine ourselves before we partake of the bread and the cup. If we are living in blatant sin (as some in Corinth were), then we are partaking of communion unworthily.

Actually it wasn’t St.Paul that said that but the Holy Spirit.If it wasn’t the Holy Spirit then scripture isn’t inspired.Look closer and one will see that the reference is made to THIS BREAD (caps are lazy bolding)not just bread but specifically this bread.

 

[fbl9]

1)How did those who heard Paul know that He was preaching the truth when He was not approved by the religious leaders?

2)How did those who heard Jesus know that He was preaching the truth when the religious leaders were speaking against Him?

3)How did those in the OT know when a prophet was of God and when he was not of God. Many if not all of the prophets were rejected by the religious leaders.

Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.

4)How do you know when you are hearing the truth and when you are hearing a lie? If you were counting of the religious leaders to tell you which prophets were of God, you would be guilty of killing the true prophets of God. If you listed to the Jews you would have missed the Gospel preached by Paul. If you listened to the religious leaders you would be guilty of crucifying the Lord.

5)God REQUIRES every man, EVERY woman to determine for themselves what is truth and what is a lie.

6)Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

7)Let God be true and EVERY man a liar.

1)by the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

2)the OT bore witness to who He was.

3)most people didn’t,but when the prophet’s words came true then then were finally recognized as such by all.Just so you are clear there are 14 books of the old testament that are declared to written by or about a prophet…So the religious leaders of Jesus’s time did not reject the prophets for they read from them as such in the synagoges.They reject their words though and that is why they also rejected Christ,

4)The same Jews also had the word and it is form that word that one could recognized whom Jesus is.

1. back this up from scripture please.

6)Just under what authority do you determine what is the word of truth?

1. quit lying to us then.

 

[jmcrae]

joe370;5084344:

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

So, answer the question. Which is greater?

If the water is non-essential, why did they concern themselves with getting water to baptize (baptizio=to immerse or cover in water) them?

After all, it was a desert country - it would have been very easy simply to declare them members of the Church already, without baptizing them, or else by saying that they are “baptized by the Holy Spirit” and leave it at that.

 

[mangy_dog]

Marduk,

Thanks for the comment. Here is a fourth possibility that you have overlooked:

4.) Jesus was speaking figuratively as He explains later in the same passage says, “The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak are spirit and they are life.”

In fact, if Jesus is not speaking figuratively in John 6:53, then Jesus is a liar. For example, Jesus says:

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. [John 10:9]

Then He says, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” [John 6:53]

If Jesus is not speaking figuratively in John 6:53 then he is contradicting Himself for many have entered the door of salvation through Jesus who have never taken communion in the RCC.

It is impossible for God to lie. If your theology results in Jesus being a liar, it is time to change your theology.

I wouldn’t venture to speculate or get wrapped around the proverbial axle when it comes to the Lord’s mercy and divine power to see in one’s soul and mind.

Surely the Lord knows the moment of contrition and repentance even if it is not clear from what we read in scripture.

Please don’t imply that the Bible contradicts itself or that the Lord doesn’t know what He is talking about.

But instead, admit that we (with the limited understanding) are just drawing straws when it comes to why the Lord said what He said and why it sounds the way it sounds is because our brains are just too puny to grasp the light.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.