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mikeledes
Guest
And those 24 elders are the church in heaven offering the prayers of the church on earth to God.
God Bless,
Michael
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God Bless,
Michael
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BereanRuss
Guest
God gives good gifts to all His children but all stand shoulder to shoulder at the foot of the cross.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. [Rom 12:6-8]
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BereanRuss
Guest
So, in the OT it would look like this…
God
Priest
Man
and in the NT it looks like this…
God
Jesus
Priest
Man
Why I am further away from God under the grace then I was under law?
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mikeledes
Guest
Everyone has their own ministry and/or gift. That means that some will be given a particular ministry and others will not. And God gave the following ministry to a select group of people:
James 5:14-15
14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
God Bless,
Michael
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BereanRuss
Guest
When I asked you or someone else here why the Spirit fell on the house of Cornelius while Peter was still speaking you said that it was an unusual situation and that God was reassuring Peter that indeed the Gentiles could be saved.
This is the same situation. Here, God was proclaiming that the Gospel is not only for the Jew and for the gentile but also for a third region that was especially detested by the orthodox Jews, the region of the Samaritans. The Samaritans were pagans who had adopted the Jewish religion of the OT.
Jesus said to Peter, “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." [Mat 16:19]
Peter literally fulfilled this when he opened three doors in three specific areas:
For the Jews on Pentecost
For the gentiles in the house of Cornelius
For the half Jews - the Samaritans in Samaria.
This explains why God delayed the giving of His Spirit on this occasion.
I did respond. Follow the links, you will find it.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yup. And they sound like mediators to me…
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mikeledes
Guest
If this were so, then that would be Jesus’s “fault.” But this cannot be so, because Jesus Himself established the Sacrament of Reconciliation:
John 20:23
**23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." **
It is the apostles/ you ( subject) that forgive (verb). If they were merely proclaiming forgiveness, explain then how they can retain sins?
God bless,
Michael
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PRmerger
Guest
Yikes, Russ! You’re saying that you don’t believe Jesus is God??
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BereanRuss
Guest
I am not as familiar as you are of the CCC. Please post the sections pertaining to the sacrament of reconciliation and we can look at together.
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PRmerger
Guest
Then you ought not be making claims like this: You cannot receive forgiveness of sin apart from confession to a priest
on this thread!
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jmcrae
Guest
Jesus is God and Man. The priest is in persona Christi. (in the person of Christ) - so, when I am with the priest, I am speaking face to face with God (Jesus) and hearing Him speak to me in a human voice. Not that the priest is, himself, God (Jesus), but rather, that the priest is an instrument used by God (Jesus) to make Himself known to me.
I am definitely closer to God with the priest there than otherwise - and than they were in the Old Testament, with priests who were not in persona Christi.
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NotWorthy
Guest
No, the Church does not teach this as you present it.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Why are you saying that Jesus places us further from God. That’s a bizarre thought. Putting Jesus in the mix brings us closer to God, not further away.
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joe370
Guest
Russ, in response to my post below, you said:
When you change the definition of the word “church”, your theology becomes distorted. The “church” are those who are born of the Spirit.
Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot be born again by the will of any man through baptism, you can only be born into His kingdom by His will. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1:12, 13]
When did I change the definition of the word church? Jesus’ one church is comprised of brothers and sisters in Christ, firstly ordained leaders (Acts 1; Matthew 28:20) and then the laity, such as myself. Your church is isolated from my church, and all P.C.'s are isolated from one another.
This is yet another attempt to ignore the point of my post.
I say again:
Based on you suppositions, It sounds as if Jesus’ One established church from the word go, at Pentecost, was duped by the evil one for the first 1500 years of Christianity, and still continues to be duped. If you are right then calling mere bread the flesh of God, and consuming it as God, is idolatry, which she as the bride of Christ was/is guilty of, since Pentecost; if you were right I would not be a Christian; this is a very serious matter! If you are right then millions of Christians were guilty of idolatry as well, over a 2000 year period, including those leaders who were disciples of the apostles!
Again, phew…Gosh, I hope you are wrong my friend, for the sake of so many reputedly duped catholc Christians and eastern orthodox Christians.
What’s your take…???
When you change the definition of the word “church”, your theology becomes distorted. The “church” are those who are born of the Spirit.
Unless you are born again you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. You cannot be born again by the will of any man through baptism, you can only be born into His kingdom by His will. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [John 1:12, 13]
When did I change the definition of the word church? Jesus’ one church is comprised of brothers and sisters in Christ, firstly ordained leaders (Acts 1; Matthew 28:20) and then the laity, such as myself. Your church is isolated from my church, and all P.C.'s are isolated from one another.
This is yet another attempt to ignore the point of my post.
I say again:
Based on you suppositions, It sounds as if Jesus’ One established church from the word go, at Pentecost, was duped by the evil one for the first 1500 years of Christianity, and still continues to be duped. If you are right then calling mere bread the flesh of God, and consuming it as God, is idolatry, which she as the bride of Christ was/is guilty of, since Pentecost; if you were right I would not be a Christian; this is a very serious matter! If you are right then millions of Christians were guilty of idolatry as well, over a 2000 year period, including those leaders who were disciples of the apostles!
Again, phew…Gosh, I hope you are wrong my friend, for the sake of so many reputedly duped catholc Christians and eastern orthodox Christians.
What’s your take…???
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NotWorthy
Guest
I’ve posted this roughly 15 times in this thread. Ralph attempted to answer it (but didn’t). I’m not sure, but I don’t think BereanRuss has even acknowledged the question.
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joe370
Guest
Originally Posted by joe370 View Post
Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation, as ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through them. If that’s not intercessory/mediatory work, then I don’t know what is!
Russ you said:
Then it is impossible to be reconciled to God without the Priest? Yikes, Joe, that sure condemns a lot of Christians.
I did not put those words in the bible…the apostles did, so don’t yikes me; yikes them my friend!!! You mean, just as you condemn a whole lot of catholics, for 2000 years for believing in idolatry, and you do, indirectly, If you are right in saying that catholics who eat mere bread and claim to be eating the flesh of God…consuming it as God, ARE WRONG; we all know what God thinks about idolatry. Yikes…
Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation, as ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through them. If that’s not intercessory/mediatory work, then I don’t know what is!
Russ you said:
Then it is impossible to be reconciled to God without the Priest? Yikes, Joe, that sure condemns a lot of Christians.
I did not put those words in the bible…the apostles did, so don’t yikes me; yikes them my friend!!! You mean, just as you condemn a whole lot of catholics, for 2000 years for believing in idolatry, and you do, indirectly, If you are right in saying that catholics who eat mere bread and claim to be eating the flesh of God…consuming it as God, ARE WRONG; we all know what God thinks about idolatry. Yikes…
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NotWorthy
Guest
For Russ and Ralph,
The following is what the early Church taught of the Catholic Church less than 100 years after Christ’s birth. This was acknowledged by the entire Church and never questioned. In other words, these words are the words of the Faithful.
St. Ignatius, by the way, was a student of John the Apostles. He would have asked at least once what is meant in John 6, if there was any confusion among the faithful.
God Bless!!!
The following is what the early Church taught of the Catholic Church less than 100 years after Christ’s birth. This was acknowledged by the entire Church and never questioned. In other words, these words are the words of the Faithful.
St. Ignatius, by the way, was a student of John the Apostles. He would have asked at least once what is meant in John 6, if there was any confusion among the faithful.
BTW, I have enjoyed this thread with you guys, Russ and Ralph. I’m confident that you have a love for Jesus Christ that all of us can admire. I wish we could some time spend more time sharing what we have in common, but of course… that would make a very dull thread, eh?
God Bless!!!
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joe370
Guest
**
Jmcrae showed you in the very next post. Russ why should I believe in the rapture, etymologically speaking, a product of the 19th century? I cannot locate that word anywhere in the bible.
You say that the “function of (a mediator between God and man) can be clearly identified in the bible”. Please show me this from the NT.**
Jmcrae showed you in the very next post. Russ why should I believe in the rapture, etymologically speaking, a product of the 19th century? I cannot locate that word anywhere in the bible.
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joe370
Guest
Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post Has anybody on this thread made that claim?
BereanRuss, you said: Joe did.
I never said, only through priests!!! How in the world did you glean that from my post when I have clearly said, over and over, that JESUS IS the head and savior of all his churches, not just the one he built; nothing is impossible for God?
Nevertheless, Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the Apostles, and the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation…
BereanRuss, you said: Joe did.
I never said, only through priests!!! How in the world did you glean that from my post when I have clearly said, over and over, that JESUS IS the head and savior of all his churches, not just the one he built; nothing is impossible for God?
Nevertheless, Paul as one of the principal ministers, along with the Apostles, and the rest of the bishops and presbyters and their successors via the imposition of hands, in perpetuity, were given the ministry of reconciliation, entrusting to them the message of reconciliation…
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joe370
Guest
According to what Paul the Apostle recounted in 1 Corinthians 11:23–26, in the course of the Last Supper, and with specific reference to eating bread and drinking from a cup, Jesus told his disciples, “Do this in remembrance of me”.
Do what, as per all scholars???
Paul the Apostle, circa 54 AD, wrote of the Last Supper:
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this holy bread, and drink this holy cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
Do what, in remembrance of Jesus? Can anyone do this or just the apostles and their successors via the imposition of the hands?
The Synoptic Gospels and Paul recount that Jesus took some bread, said a prayer (which Matthew and Mark refer to as a “blessing,” Luke and Paul as a “giving thanks”) --gave the pieces to his disciples, and told them: “This is my body.”
Russ, why don’t you believe Jesus; His apostles did?
…At the end of the meal, he took a cup (Luke mentions another cup at the start of the meal), probably of wine, offered a prayer (a “thanksgiving” in Matthew and Mark, no direct mention in Luke and Paul, who use the adverb “likewise”), gave it to his disciples, and spoke words associating it with his blood. Paul and Luke mention an instruction to “do this in memory of me”. And the Eucharist, which is recorded as celebrated by the early Christian community at Jerusalem and by St Paul on his visit to Troas (Acts 20:7), was held to have been instituted by Christ.
Russ, were they wrong???
The words of Institution are those used, inserted into a narrative of the Last Supper, in Catholic Eucharistic liturgies, to recall those used by Jesus on that occasion. The institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper is remembered by Catholics, by doing exactly what Jesus told His chosen ambassadors to do, which is:
to take bread, and after blessing it break it and give it to them, and say, 'Take; this is Christ’s body… And he says to them, This is Christ’s blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many; this do to remember me!!! Mark Matthew, Luke and Paul
Russ, do what??? Jesus had yet to shed any blood on the cross, and yet He still said:
This is my body…this is my blood… Again, show me how bread symbolizes Jesus’ flesh, as compared to Jesus being the door!!!
This is a priestly function, if one believes it is really Christ’s Body, which of course you do not…In the O.T. THE priests offered up the blood, which was not theirs of course…in the N.T. the priests, via the power of the Holy Spirit, offers up the blood, which is not theirs of course; one is the presentation of many different sacrifices in real time, and the other is the re-presentation of the one sacrifice, offered up 2000 years ago, outside of time!
In the Catholic Church, and as the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Orthodox Church, at these liturgies, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox celebrate the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The name “Eucharist” is from the Greek word (eucharistia) which means “thanksgiving” and they have been doing this since Pentecost; no changes to the breaking of the bread in 2000 years, at least until the P.R…
At which point, each major division of Christianity, stemming from the protestant reformation, has formed different theologies about the exact meaning and purpose of these remembrance ceremonies, but most of them are similar; they add the word symbol!!!
I guess, the only 2 churches that can trace their lineages back to the apostles who taught what the C.C. believes, today, are guilty of idolatry if you are right Russ! Is that the case???
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